Hi all!
Lately I have been involved in some what Olaf call "verbal battles" here at
DCML. I guess that's a part of the game for people trusting their own
thoughts and opinions. Anyway to show that I am more then the "quarrelant"
some people here seems to believe that I am, I will here try to announce a
topic that I hope will be seriously discussed:
In a previous thread Lars Jensen mentioned the old "Eastern block". So my
question here is: how was the situation for Disney comics in the "Eastern
block" during the cold war? I guess this is a topic where our Polish friend
Maciek can enlighten us.
Sigvald :-)
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Author
Topic: 200305
(658 messages)
Sigvald Grøsfjeld Jr.
Disney comics in the Eastern block during the cold war
Message 451 -
2003-05-23 at 04:22:55
CarmenG
For Italians--Off-topic, a bit
Message 452 -
2003-05-23 at 05:03:56
Hello--
I have a somewhat duck-related question for Italian members of the list,
several of whom have helped me in the past. When I was a child, my parents sang me
some songs that I would like to pass onto my new daughter (well, almost a
year old now!). One was a popular song, that began (and forgive my spelling, I am
going to try and write this phonetically): "Papaveri e papari son alti, alti,
alti, e tu so piccolina..." or SOMETHING like that!--and that's all of it I
know. I never knew what it was about except that it concerned a DUCK (papari).
The other was a hand-clapping song, and my father & mother each had a
different variation of it! "Battiamo le manini, adesso vieni Papa" OR "Mani manini,
vieni Papa."
Can anyone help me with the words and the translations? Please don't go to
any trouble, but if you happen to know, I'd appreciate a private email. (I don't
want to bore anyone!)
Grazie,
Carmen
(or Carmelo)
I have a somewhat duck-related question for Italian members of the list,
several of whom have helped me in the past. When I was a child, my parents sang me
some songs that I would like to pass onto my new daughter (well, almost a
year old now!). One was a popular song, that began (and forgive my spelling, I am
going to try and write this phonetically): "Papaveri e papari son alti, alti,
alti, e tu so piccolina..." or SOMETHING like that!--and that's all of it I
know. I never knew what it was about except that it concerned a DUCK (papari).
The other was a hand-clapping song, and my father & mother each had a
different variation of it! "Battiamo le manini, adesso vieni Papa" OR "Mani manini,
vieni Papa."
Can anyone help me with the words and the translations? Please don't go to
any trouble, but if you happen to know, I'd appreciate a private email. (I don't
want to bore anyone!)
Grazie,
Carmen
(or Carmelo)
Rob Klein
Story Event Dating
Message 453 -
2003-05-23 at 06:33:39
I go along with Lars. When writing a story that requires reference to the
origin of something at an earlier time, I would avoid specific dates,
altogether. In the case of someone with the advanced age of Uncle Scrooge, I
would refer back to his age in years (i.e. "I got it when I was 22 years old,
and was mining copper in Montana!") In a pinch, I would use X number of years
ago. But, even THAT is a potential problem, when kids are led to believe any
given story is taking place in the "current year".
For Sigvald: Once again, your choice of wording has seemingly caused
objections, from people who don't want to be spoken for, and people who revere
alphabets as one of mankind's greater achievements.
I am convinced, based on your private messages to me, and your
public "apologies" that you mean NO HARM OR MALICE towards others in giving us
your ideas. They were worded such that you "spoke for others" without
possessing the data to do so; and in addition giving the (FALSE) impression
that you intended to besmerch the value of alphabets that are unintelligible to
most Scandinavians (or, at least, Norwegians). NOW, don't get me wrong, I KNOW
you did not intend to imply that the Arabic and Chinese scripts have less
intrinsic value than the Northern European adaptations of the Roman script.
But, your use of the word "RUBBLE" could well imply that to many people.
Ordinarily, I would say this might be a language-related problem. However you
do very well in English (for a non-native writer-who is not a linguist). I
really think the answer to your not offending people further (and requiring
continued apologies and explanations of intent) is to think more carefully,
before you choose your wording. Remember, this is not your first language, nor
is it that of most of the list members.
If I were a Norwegian, or a Scandinavian, I would resent your speaking for me,
when your conclusions come from your opinions, and not from facts or definitive
data from a large sample. You have ideas about what is true (as we all have).
But they are likely to be inaccurate, if you do not have the information to
make such judgements.
Someone implied that the "average" Scandinavian Disney weekly comic reader of 5-
10 years of age reads the comic once and throws it away. Where does the data
proving that exist? I know about 40 children within that age group in Norway.
Roughly 30 of them have their parents purchase the comics for them. Most of
the others read their friends' or sibling's comics only once. They are casual
readers. The 30 that "own" them all have kept all their weeklies (and have a
few monthlies, and a few special books, and some even have a few albums and
pockets. They keep them all. No throwing away. A few of them don't treat
their comics "with kid gloves", but most do. Some of the older kids are ardent
collectors, buying old comics, to fill in what they missed, and get some of
the "classic" older stories. They all have decent sized "stacks" of comics.
Several have their "collections" in neat bookshelves. I found a similar
situation among the children I know in Danmark. The Entire group of families I
know in Norway has nothing to do with my connections to Egmont, nor my comic
collecting hobby. They were ALL met through other walks of life. NONE of those
children have a comic collector for a parent. The same is true for those I
know in Danmark. Most of them are members of my brother-in-law's family. None
of them are comic book collectors. My comic book artist friends and writer
friends there don't have kids in that age group, except Freddy Milton's kids,
who DON'T read comic books (they went straight to novels and nonfiction)! So
what does this prove??? It proves that opinions and anecdotal data PROVE
NOTHING! One should always couch his statements in the context of their
pertainence. If you have an opinion, state it as such ("I think..." -or, IF X
is so, THEN.... - Does anyone on the list have the exact data or information on
this?", etc.
Now, regarding the RUBBLE ALPHABETS ("It's all Greek to me!"). Perhaps it
would have been less offensive to say: "I think more people in Scandinavia
would have preferred to see the characters' names written in an alphabet whose
phonemes they can understand! Perhaps the book should have shown the native
foreign alphabets, AND ALSO provided phonetic translations of the names into a
Romanized alphabet (with a code key to indicate sounds not used in the
Scandinavian languages).
That so-called "RUBBLE" alphabet is a closer derivitive of the ORIGINAL West
Semitic alphabet, which was the precurser to the "classic" Greek and Roman
Alphabets. Without THAT original, we would NOT be using the modified Roman
script today, that you are so comfortable with! So,.... shouldn't we use more
careful wording, that doesn't make people think that we are disrespecting other
people's languages or alphabets.
I, for one, as a child, AND as an adult, am MORE GLAD to see the names of the
Disney characters in their most exotic forms. Had I seen that as a child, it
WOULD have likely spurred me on to learn the Arabic and Chinese alphabets, and
possibly those languages, as well. The Arabic would have stood me in good
stead, as I worked in the Middle East and "Arab Africa" for over 10 years. I
did learn their alphabet and language (to some extent), but the early head
start would have been a bonus. It might have changed my whole life. Don't
underestimate our children. They are capable of, and interested in quite a lot.
They already have access to information regarding the names of the characters
in neighbouring countries. Many Norwegians have cousins in Sweden and/or
danmark. They could also find the names of the characters by looking at second
hand comic books in antiquariats and book stores. I used to frequent most of
the shops in Copenhagen, Malmo, Oslo and Jylland. I have seen almost every
Saturday, a few "foreign" comics in the shops with the bigger stocks.
Terms such as "most people", "most of the time", "always", "everyone", "most
children", "most (fill in ethnic or age group)", should be used with care, if
at all (or prefaced with "so and so data or study said".
This way, we will have less hashing over who meant what, and a lower percentage
of tangential and off-topic paragraphs.
That's just my krone's worth.
Rob Klein
---------------------------------------------
This message was sent using the LA Free-Net - LA's best kept secret.
http://www.lafn.org/
origin of something at an earlier time, I would avoid specific dates,
altogether. In the case of someone with the advanced age of Uncle Scrooge, I
would refer back to his age in years (i.e. "I got it when I was 22 years old,
and was mining copper in Montana!") In a pinch, I would use X number of years
ago. But, even THAT is a potential problem, when kids are led to believe any
given story is taking place in the "current year".
For Sigvald: Once again, your choice of wording has seemingly caused
objections, from people who don't want to be spoken for, and people who revere
alphabets as one of mankind's greater achievements.
I am convinced, based on your private messages to me, and your
public "apologies" that you mean NO HARM OR MALICE towards others in giving us
your ideas. They were worded such that you "spoke for others" without
possessing the data to do so; and in addition giving the (FALSE) impression
that you intended to besmerch the value of alphabets that are unintelligible to
most Scandinavians (or, at least, Norwegians). NOW, don't get me wrong, I KNOW
you did not intend to imply that the Arabic and Chinese scripts have less
intrinsic value than the Northern European adaptations of the Roman script.
But, your use of the word "RUBBLE" could well imply that to many people.
Ordinarily, I would say this might be a language-related problem. However you
do very well in English (for a non-native writer-who is not a linguist). I
really think the answer to your not offending people further (and requiring
continued apologies and explanations of intent) is to think more carefully,
before you choose your wording. Remember, this is not your first language, nor
is it that of most of the list members.
If I were a Norwegian, or a Scandinavian, I would resent your speaking for me,
when your conclusions come from your opinions, and not from facts or definitive
data from a large sample. You have ideas about what is true (as we all have).
But they are likely to be inaccurate, if you do not have the information to
make such judgements.
Someone implied that the "average" Scandinavian Disney weekly comic reader of 5-
10 years of age reads the comic once and throws it away. Where does the data
proving that exist? I know about 40 children within that age group in Norway.
Roughly 30 of them have their parents purchase the comics for them. Most of
the others read their friends' or sibling's comics only once. They are casual
readers. The 30 that "own" them all have kept all their weeklies (and have a
few monthlies, and a few special books, and some even have a few albums and
pockets. They keep them all. No throwing away. A few of them don't treat
their comics "with kid gloves", but most do. Some of the older kids are ardent
collectors, buying old comics, to fill in what they missed, and get some of
the "classic" older stories. They all have decent sized "stacks" of comics.
Several have their "collections" in neat bookshelves. I found a similar
situation among the children I know in Danmark. The Entire group of families I
know in Norway has nothing to do with my connections to Egmont, nor my comic
collecting hobby. They were ALL met through other walks of life. NONE of those
children have a comic collector for a parent. The same is true for those I
know in Danmark. Most of them are members of my brother-in-law's family. None
of them are comic book collectors. My comic book artist friends and writer
friends there don't have kids in that age group, except Freddy Milton's kids,
who DON'T read comic books (they went straight to novels and nonfiction)! So
what does this prove??? It proves that opinions and anecdotal data PROVE
NOTHING! One should always couch his statements in the context of their
pertainence. If you have an opinion, state it as such ("I think..." -or, IF X
is so, THEN.... - Does anyone on the list have the exact data or information on
this?", etc.
Now, regarding the RUBBLE ALPHABETS ("It's all Greek to me!"). Perhaps it
would have been less offensive to say: "I think more people in Scandinavia
would have preferred to see the characters' names written in an alphabet whose
phonemes they can understand! Perhaps the book should have shown the native
foreign alphabets, AND ALSO provided phonetic translations of the names into a
Romanized alphabet (with a code key to indicate sounds not used in the
Scandinavian languages).
That so-called "RUBBLE" alphabet is a closer derivitive of the ORIGINAL West
Semitic alphabet, which was the precurser to the "classic" Greek and Roman
Alphabets. Without THAT original, we would NOT be using the modified Roman
script today, that you are so comfortable with! So,.... shouldn't we use more
careful wording, that doesn't make people think that we are disrespecting other
people's languages or alphabets.
I, for one, as a child, AND as an adult, am MORE GLAD to see the names of the
Disney characters in their most exotic forms. Had I seen that as a child, it
WOULD have likely spurred me on to learn the Arabic and Chinese alphabets, and
possibly those languages, as well. The Arabic would have stood me in good
stead, as I worked in the Middle East and "Arab Africa" for over 10 years. I
did learn their alphabet and language (to some extent), but the early head
start would have been a bonus. It might have changed my whole life. Don't
underestimate our children. They are capable of, and interested in quite a lot.
They already have access to information regarding the names of the characters
in neighbouring countries. Many Norwegians have cousins in Sweden and/or
danmark. They could also find the names of the characters by looking at second
hand comic books in antiquariats and book stores. I used to frequent most of
the shops in Copenhagen, Malmo, Oslo and Jylland. I have seen almost every
Saturday, a few "foreign" comics in the shops with the bigger stocks.
Terms such as "most people", "most of the time", "always", "everyone", "most
children", "most (fill in ethnic or age group)", should be used with care, if
at all (or prefaced with "so and so data or study said".
This way, we will have less hashing over who meant what, and a lower percentage
of tangential and off-topic paragraphs.
That's just my krone's worth.
Rob Klein
---------------------------------------------
This message was sent using the LA Free-Net - LA's best kept secret.
http://www.lafn.org/
Olaf Solstrand
Language! Narf!
Message 454 -
2003-05-23 at 06:37:05
(sigh)
First, about Serbo-Croatian versus Jugoslavian: As this is NAMES, that can
vary from country to country and not only from language to language (as
Brazilian names may differ a little from Portuguese names and so on), I
don't see any wrong in showing NATIONALITY instead of LANGUAGE here, and
writing "Jugoslav" instead of "Serbo-Croatian": Besides: How many
10-year-olds in 1976 knew the term "Serbo-Croatian"?
> OK, and the lack of a Portuguese or was is a "Spanish" name for
Drakeborough
> tells me that some readctions haven't published some of Don Rosa's stories
> yet. But this is not why I look in such list of Character's names anyway.
...but that is why this list was printed.
(No, I won't explain that any further. Ole wrote an excellent post about
this - read that.)
And I have no idea why you show "Spanish" in quotation marks over here - but
I assume that is related to an old discussion I don't want to know about, so
I won't ask.
> You seem to forget that I was 10-12 years old at the time I first got
"Jeg,
> Mikke Mus", by then I was very interested to know the Swedish names, but I
> didn't have the internet to help me...
I knew kids that also were interested in knowing this - and they got their
answers by sending mail (plain old paper-mail) to Donald Duck & Co.
> Just that the interest, shown by people with Swedish names, for
> Rick's topic triggered a two and a half decade old irritation of mine.
...that's still no explanation to blame Swedish editors for a mistake made
by Norwegian editors - which serving its intention was no mistake at all.
> You seem to have completely misunderstand my logic.
>
> 1) The second Norwegian translation was "a problem" for Norwegians only.
...and the lack of Swedish and Finnish in the Norwegian edition was ALSO a
"problem" for Norwegians only. I sincerely doubt that Italians and Americans
were feeling that something was missing because there was no Swedish names
in their "Io Topolino" books.
> 2) I haven't given you any reason to assume I support the attitudes behind
> that second translation.
Oh - does that mean Stefan and Christina DID give you a reason to assume
they support the attitudes behind leaving out Swedish names in a Norwegian
book? All they did was showing interest for the _Chinese_ names! Are you
saying that when someone is showing interest for a distant language, that
means they despite their own language - and wants to keep that out of
foreign books? And, concidering this was a discussion about Chinese names,
should people have told Rich "shut up, we're not interested"?
> 3) In my posting I din't ask anyone to apologize for the missing languages
> in "Jeg, Mikke Mus".
No, but you certainly blamed all Swedes for this.
> I was *not* calling oher languages "rubble" - I was adressing strange
> alphabets and signs *only* as rubble.
1) That did NOT show from your first post - it seemed obvious that you were
refering to the languages themselves.
2) How is that better? You insulted all the users of a set of signs. How
would you react if someone called the latin alphabet "rubble"?
> > BTW, in the Swedish book the names in the
> > Norwegian "rubble" language have been replaced
> > by names in Swedish.
>
> Why can't read what I writes before making jokes out of it? What I called
> "rubble" was the arab alphabet and Asian signs - *not* any spoken
language.
> So what you are doing here can be seen as insulting all Norwegians here.
Not those of us who understand irony.
Olaf
First, about Serbo-Croatian versus Jugoslavian: As this is NAMES, that can
vary from country to country and not only from language to language (as
Brazilian names may differ a little from Portuguese names and so on), I
don't see any wrong in showing NATIONALITY instead of LANGUAGE here, and
writing "Jugoslav" instead of "Serbo-Croatian": Besides: How many
10-year-olds in 1976 knew the term "Serbo-Croatian"?
> OK, and the lack of a Portuguese or was is a "Spanish" name for
Drakeborough
> tells me that some readctions haven't published some of Don Rosa's stories
> yet. But this is not why I look in such list of Character's names anyway.
...but that is why this list was printed.
(No, I won't explain that any further. Ole wrote an excellent post about
this - read that.)
And I have no idea why you show "Spanish" in quotation marks over here - but
I assume that is related to an old discussion I don't want to know about, so
I won't ask.
> You seem to forget that I was 10-12 years old at the time I first got
"Jeg,
> Mikke Mus", by then I was very interested to know the Swedish names, but I
> didn't have the internet to help me...
I knew kids that also were interested in knowing this - and they got their
answers by sending mail (plain old paper-mail) to Donald Duck & Co.
> Just that the interest, shown by people with Swedish names, for
> Rick's topic triggered a two and a half decade old irritation of mine.
...that's still no explanation to blame Swedish editors for a mistake made
by Norwegian editors - which serving its intention was no mistake at all.
> You seem to have completely misunderstand my logic.
>
> 1) The second Norwegian translation was "a problem" for Norwegians only.
...and the lack of Swedish and Finnish in the Norwegian edition was ALSO a
"problem" for Norwegians only. I sincerely doubt that Italians and Americans
were feeling that something was missing because there was no Swedish names
in their "Io Topolino" books.
> 2) I haven't given you any reason to assume I support the attitudes behind
> that second translation.
Oh - does that mean Stefan and Christina DID give you a reason to assume
they support the attitudes behind leaving out Swedish names in a Norwegian
book? All they did was showing interest for the _Chinese_ names! Are you
saying that when someone is showing interest for a distant language, that
means they despite their own language - and wants to keep that out of
foreign books? And, concidering this was a discussion about Chinese names,
should people have told Rich "shut up, we're not interested"?
> 3) In my posting I din't ask anyone to apologize for the missing languages
> in "Jeg, Mikke Mus".
No, but you certainly blamed all Swedes for this.
> I was *not* calling oher languages "rubble" - I was adressing strange
> alphabets and signs *only* as rubble.
1) That did NOT show from your first post - it seemed obvious that you were
refering to the languages themselves.
2) How is that better? You insulted all the users of a set of signs. How
would you react if someone called the latin alphabet "rubble"?
> > BTW, in the Swedish book the names in the
> > Norwegian "rubble" language have been replaced
> > by names in Swedish.
>
> Why can't read what I writes before making jokes out of it? What I called
> "rubble" was the arab alphabet and Asian signs - *not* any spoken
language.
> So what you are doing here can be seen as insulting all Norwegians here.
Not those of us who understand irony.
Olaf
Kriton Kyrimis
For Italians--Off-topic, a bit
Message 455 -
2003-05-23 at 09:07:29
CARMEN:
(Re: Papaveri e papere)
Just do a google search for "papaveri" and "alti" and you'll find tons of
references to the words of that song. The first of those even appears to
have a pointer to a recording of the song, though the page consistently
crashes both mozilla and internet explorer.
The song was once very popular here in Greece, and because of it my father
learned Italian, "by chance", as he says: He asked an Italian-speaking
friend of his to tell him the words of the song, the friend gave him
an Italian song book, which contained, among others that song, then my
father wanted to learn what the words of all those songs meant...
Sort of how I'm learning "by chance" to read Italian, as I wanted to
know what the words in those Italian Disney comics mean! (Just to bring
the discussion back on topic!)
Kriton (e-mail: kyrimis at cti.gr)
(WWW: http://dias.cti.gr/~kyrimis)
-----
"I'm not as young as I was last week."
-----
(Re: Papaveri e papere)
Just do a google search for "papaveri" and "alti" and you'll find tons of
references to the words of that song. The first of those even appears to
have a pointer to a recording of the song, though the page consistently
crashes both mozilla and internet explorer.
The song was once very popular here in Greece, and because of it my father
learned Italian, "by chance", as he says: He asked an Italian-speaking
friend of his to tell him the words of the song, the friend gave him
an Italian song book, which contained, among others that song, then my
father wanted to learn what the words of all those songs meant...
Sort of how I'm learning "by chance" to read Italian, as I wanted to
know what the words in those Italian Disney comics mean! (Just to bring
the discussion back on topic!)
Kriton (e-mail: kyrimis at cti.gr)
(WWW: http://dias.cti.gr/~kyrimis)
-----
"I'm not as young as I was last week."
-----
Christina Hellström
(OT) Swedes and character names in strange languages
Message 456 -
2003-05-23 at 09:24:59
> From: Sigvald Gr?sfjeld jr.
>
> Christina Hellstr?m <chellstr at iki.fi> wrote:
>
> > Well, I'm Finnish, although Swedish is my
> > motherthoungue,
>
> And your name look Swedish, just like Nordenski?ld who is mentioned "The
> Crown of The Crusader Kings".
Our names look Swedish because they are Swedish, meaning the language not
the country. Finland has two official languages, Finnish and Swedish, with
Swedish being the minority language of about 6%. Although one cannot 100%
derrive the motherthoungue from the name, both I and A.E. Nordenski?ld
have/had Swedish as our motherthongue. The most internationally famous
(still alive) Swedish speaking Finn would probably be Linus Torvalds of
Linux fame. :)
> Anyway, the point is the same as Finnish was also excluded in "Jeg Mikke
> Mus". I won't claim there is a line from the 1970's Swedish and Finnish
> redaction to modern DCML'ers from the same countries, but other
> people here may say so now.
????
> And for your information, Christina: the Greek, Japanese and Arab
> names was
> *not* even written with latin letters in "Jeg Mikke Mus".
And why should they have been? Of course, in addition, some pronounciation
guide in latin letters would be nice, but I certainly would rather have the
original lettering than any latin letter version of the same.
Oh, and thanks to Rich Bellacera for the Chinese names and Stefan Petterson
for the Japanese names! I really do appreciate them!
--
//Christina Hellstr?m
http://www.geocities.com/chellstr/
>
> Christina Hellstr?m <chellstr at iki.fi> wrote:
>
> > Well, I'm Finnish, although Swedish is my
> > motherthoungue,
>
> And your name look Swedish, just like Nordenski?ld who is mentioned "The
> Crown of The Crusader Kings".
Our names look Swedish because they are Swedish, meaning the language not
the country. Finland has two official languages, Finnish and Swedish, with
Swedish being the minority language of about 6%. Although one cannot 100%
derrive the motherthoungue from the name, both I and A.E. Nordenski?ld
have/had Swedish as our motherthongue. The most internationally famous
(still alive) Swedish speaking Finn would probably be Linus Torvalds of
Linux fame. :)
> Anyway, the point is the same as Finnish was also excluded in "Jeg Mikke
> Mus". I won't claim there is a line from the 1970's Swedish and Finnish
> redaction to modern DCML'ers from the same countries, but other
> people here may say so now.
????
> And for your information, Christina: the Greek, Japanese and Arab
> names was
> *not* even written with latin letters in "Jeg Mikke Mus".
And why should they have been? Of course, in addition, some pronounciation
guide in latin letters would be nice, but I certainly would rather have the
original lettering than any latin letter version of the same.
Oh, and thanks to Rich Bellacera for the Chinese names and Stefan Petterson
for the Japanese names! I really do appreciate them!
--
//Christina Hellstr?m
http://www.geocities.com/chellstr/
Olaf Solstrand
Off-topic... But still worth writing
Message 457 -
2003-05-23 at 15:05:22
HAPPY 41st BIRTHDAY HARRY (Fluks)!
Lars Jensen
Swedes and character names in strange languages
Message 458 -
2003-05-23 at 16:23:59
Everybody, this posting is going to be long and boring. Feel free to
skip it, if you're not interested in me taking apart Sigvald's
arguments.
Sigvald wrote:
>> As a historian, you must know that Yugoslavia
>> in the 1970s was part of the East Bloc...
>
> It was a neutral country, and thus not a part of the Warzaw-pact.
Let's just agree this is off-topic.
>>> Well let me just tell all Swedes this: for
>>> Norwegian and I bet also Danish readers of
>>> any age, Asian "rubble" is definitely *not*
>>> as interesting as Swedish names!
>>
>> You'd lose that bet.
>
> Why? Have you asked every Dane or every Norwegian about that???
No. But then, I didn't have to. You said you'd "bet" Danish readers were
not as interested in Asian "rubble" as in Swedish names. Which meant,
you tried to speak for me (amongst others). I am a Danish reader, and I
*am* more interested in the Asian names than in the Swedish ditto. Which
contradicts your line about all Danes sharing your opinion. And makes
you lose that bet.
>> I was very interested by Rich Bellacera's list
>> of characters in the "Disney Character names
>> in Chinese" thread. Looking at it, I see such
>> favorites of mine as Fethry Duck and Madam Mim
>> are mentioned - implying (to me, at least) that
>> stories featuring them are being printed in
>> China.
>
> OK, and the lack of a Portuguese or was is a "Spanish" name for
> Drakeborough tells me that some readctions haven't published some of
> Don Rosa's stories yet. But this is not why I look in such list of
> Character's names anyway.
But that is sometimes why *I* look at such lists. You tried to speak for
every Norwegian and Dane. I'm saying that in my case you were wrong.
>> That's *much* more interesting to me than what
>> the name of, say, Daisy Duck is in Sweden - I
>> already know stories featuring her are being
>> used all over Scandinavia, so what information
>> could I get out of knowing her Swedish name?
>
> You seem to forget that I was 10-12 years old at the time I first got
> "Jeg, Mikke Mus", by then I was very interested to know the Swedish
> names, but I didn't have the internet to help me...
No, I didn't "forget". This part of the discussion is about whether you
have the knowledge to speak on others' behalf, not whether you
personally are interested in Swedish character names.
>> As you probably know, the Barks story
>> "Lost in the Andes!" (about the square eggs)
>> underwent a not-too-well-received second
>> translation when it was used in the Norwegian
>> 1974 "Jeg, Donald Duck" book. Using your
>> own logic, I'm going to blame *you* for that
>> fiasco. On behalf of *serious* Donaldists
>> everywhere I expect to get an apology from you
>> regarding that mess.
>
> You seem to have completely misunderstand my logic.
>
> 1) The second Norwegian translation was "a problem" for Norwegians
> only.
Just as the use of Japanese and Arab names in "Jeg, Mikke Mus" seems to
have been a problem for you only. I certainly haven't seen any other
Norwegian members of DCML chime in with their criticism.
> 2) I haven't given you any reason to assume I support the attitudes
> behind that second translation.
Just as the Swedish members of DCML (and Christina) haven't given you
any reason to assume they support the attitudes behind the use of
Japanese and Arab names in "Jeg, Mikke Mus".
> 3) In my posting I din't ask anyone to apologize for the missing
> languages in "Jeg, Mikke Mus".
You only asked Swedish members of DCML to "clean their own house before
taking care of other people's business". You're right. You should be
apologizing to the Swedes, rather than to me. My mistake.
> I was *not* calling oher languages "rubble" - I was adressing strange
> alphabets and signs *only* as rubble.
My mistake again. Your use of the word "languages" lead me to believe
you were talking about languages, when in fact you had meant to use the
word "alphabets". Honestly, Sigvald, it would be much easier discussing
these things with you if you used the correct words.
As for whether it's OK to call "strange" alphabets and signs "rubble",
I'm going to leave others to address that.
Although, you *do* realize that Sweden has two characters in their
alphabet (ä and ö) which don't appear in the Norwegian one, right?
Doesn't this make the Swedish alphabet "rubble"? Which, according to
you, means it should be kept out of "Jeg, Mikke Mus" - which of course
it was...
Lars
skip it, if you're not interested in me taking apart Sigvald's
arguments.
Sigvald wrote:
>> As a historian, you must know that Yugoslavia
>> in the 1970s was part of the East Bloc...
>
> It was a neutral country, and thus not a part of the Warzaw-pact.
Let's just agree this is off-topic.
>>> Well let me just tell all Swedes this: for
>>> Norwegian and I bet also Danish readers of
>>> any age, Asian "rubble" is definitely *not*
>>> as interesting as Swedish names!
>>
>> You'd lose that bet.
>
> Why? Have you asked every Dane or every Norwegian about that???
No. But then, I didn't have to. You said you'd "bet" Danish readers were
not as interested in Asian "rubble" as in Swedish names. Which meant,
you tried to speak for me (amongst others). I am a Danish reader, and I
*am* more interested in the Asian names than in the Swedish ditto. Which
contradicts your line about all Danes sharing your opinion. And makes
you lose that bet.
>> I was very interested by Rich Bellacera's list
>> of characters in the "Disney Character names
>> in Chinese" thread. Looking at it, I see such
>> favorites of mine as Fethry Duck and Madam Mim
>> are mentioned - implying (to me, at least) that
>> stories featuring them are being printed in
>> China.
>
> OK, and the lack of a Portuguese or was is a "Spanish" name for
> Drakeborough tells me that some readctions haven't published some of
> Don Rosa's stories yet. But this is not why I look in such list of
> Character's names anyway.
But that is sometimes why *I* look at such lists. You tried to speak for
every Norwegian and Dane. I'm saying that in my case you were wrong.
>> That's *much* more interesting to me than what
>> the name of, say, Daisy Duck is in Sweden - I
>> already know stories featuring her are being
>> used all over Scandinavia, so what information
>> could I get out of knowing her Swedish name?
>
> You seem to forget that I was 10-12 years old at the time I first got
> "Jeg, Mikke Mus", by then I was very interested to know the Swedish
> names, but I didn't have the internet to help me...
No, I didn't "forget". This part of the discussion is about whether you
have the knowledge to speak on others' behalf, not whether you
personally are interested in Swedish character names.
>> As you probably know, the Barks story
>> "Lost in the Andes!" (about the square eggs)
>> underwent a not-too-well-received second
>> translation when it was used in the Norwegian
>> 1974 "Jeg, Donald Duck" book. Using your
>> own logic, I'm going to blame *you* for that
>> fiasco. On behalf of *serious* Donaldists
>> everywhere I expect to get an apology from you
>> regarding that mess.
>
> You seem to have completely misunderstand my logic.
>
> 1) The second Norwegian translation was "a problem" for Norwegians
> only.
Just as the use of Japanese and Arab names in "Jeg, Mikke Mus" seems to
have been a problem for you only. I certainly haven't seen any other
Norwegian members of DCML chime in with their criticism.
> 2) I haven't given you any reason to assume I support the attitudes
> behind that second translation.
Just as the Swedish members of DCML (and Christina) haven't given you
any reason to assume they support the attitudes behind the use of
Japanese and Arab names in "Jeg, Mikke Mus".
> 3) In my posting I din't ask anyone to apologize for the missing
> languages in "Jeg, Mikke Mus".
You only asked Swedish members of DCML to "clean their own house before
taking care of other people's business". You're right. You should be
apologizing to the Swedes, rather than to me. My mistake.
> I was *not* calling oher languages "rubble" - I was adressing strange
> alphabets and signs *only* as rubble.
My mistake again. Your use of the word "languages" lead me to believe
you were talking about languages, when in fact you had meant to use the
word "alphabets". Honestly, Sigvald, it would be much easier discussing
these things with you if you used the correct words.
As for whether it's OK to call "strange" alphabets and signs "rubble",
I'm going to leave others to address that.
Although, you *do* realize that Sweden has two characters in their
alphabet (ä and ö) which don't appear in the Norwegian one, right?
Doesn't this make the Swedish alphabet "rubble"? Which, according to
you, means it should be kept out of "Jeg, Mikke Mus" - which of course
it was...
Lars
Someone U Know
What IF
Message 459 -
2003-05-23 at 19:18:19
What if Don Rosa The duck Master wasn't An Engineer
How his engineering Sense affected his Stories and His Art
Waiting for Replys
Eng . Inverted Logic
_________________________________________________________________
STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE*
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How his engineering Sense affected his Stories and His Art
Waiting for Replys
Eng . Inverted Logic
_________________________________________________________________
STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE*
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
H.W.Fluks
Smileys
Message 460 -
2003-05-23 at 20:31:45
Sigvald, in spite of earlier mails about this, I still have the impression that you don't understand the function of the smiley in an e-mail. On Wednesday, you replied to Olaf:
> > (by the way, I can't wait to see the seriously
> > matter of war or peace in the Scandinavian
> > question during the summer of 2005 :-)
>
> I meant 1905!
Of course you meant 1905. We all know you meant 1905. Olaf also knows that and is making a JOKE about it. Therefore the smiley.
Then there's this conversation:
> > Really?? In your mail, you said that Swedes
> > "should clean their own house before taking
> > care of other people's business"
>
> Oh, please - that was just some kind of a stupid joke in
> order to get the reader's attention.
Now *that* was a place to add a smiley, in your own original mail. Then it would have been clear from the beginning that it was meant as "a stupid joke".
And finally, you often write:
> Sigvald :-)
And this is *not* the place where people usually put a smiley.
To most people it means "this mail is a joke" or "Sigvald is a joke".
It has a very weird (and often irritating) effect in the mails where nothing seems to be funny.
--Harry.
> > (by the way, I can't wait to see the seriously
> > matter of war or peace in the Scandinavian
> > question during the summer of 2005 :-)
>
> I meant 1905!
Of course you meant 1905. We all know you meant 1905. Olaf also knows that and is making a JOKE about it. Therefore the smiley.
Then there's this conversation:
> > Really?? In your mail, you said that Swedes
> > "should clean their own house before taking
> > care of other people's business"
>
> Oh, please - that was just some kind of a stupid joke in
> order to get the reader's attention.
Now *that* was a place to add a smiley, in your own original mail. Then it would have been clear from the beginning that it was meant as "a stupid joke".
And finally, you often write:
> Sigvald :-)
And this is *not* the place where people usually put a smiley.
To most people it means "this mail is a joke" or "Sigvald is a joke".
It has a very weird (and often irritating) effect in the mails where nothing seems to be funny.
--Harry.
Søren Krarup Olesen
What IF
Message 461 -
2003-05-23 at 21:10:06
SIGVALD + SUK:
On Friday 23 May 2003 18:18, Someone U Know wrote:
> What if Don Rosa The duck Master wasn't An Engineer
> How his engineering Sense affected his Stories and His Art
Well, engineers (the worst of the kind ;-) have a sense for details
which sometimes takes over and leave out time for imagination and
fantasy.
Being an engineer myself, I am happy that most writers and artists are
not. What a boring world it would be, if only those who know about
Newton's 2nd etc. were writing stories.
When it comes to Disney comics, I find (if we must focus on education)
stories coming from e.g. the social science community, or for that
matter people we meet on the street, just about anybody not being
engineers much more attractive and facinating, that IMHO silly
engineering or mathematically based "factual" stories.
Perhaps, this is one of the reasons why I find LO$ so utterly boring. It
was written and presented as historical facts, and indeed it works and
is convincing. And then...after some time of consideration you realize
that it is only pseudo history and turn back to the true imaginative
stories like the Italian ones. Beware, I don't necessarily find Italian
more funnier or more thoughtful (well...hmmm :-) than Rosa, but at
least it's nice to feel and read those stories and silently conclude,
that they are not all based on some extremely strict recipe. No fanatic
true or false (just like in the real life).
Apparently you, Sigvald, fell for it. I can surely see why. Sorting
historical events into categories is both entertaining and helpful if
you wish to get an overview of a complex area--and Disney comics is
certainly one such.
Sigvald, your idea and conception of "foreign" alphabets really scares
me! Such opinions are extreme, so why not just admit it? It's okay,
this is a free and open minded mailing list...
S?ren
(who doesn't really care what language or alphabeth as long as we can
get it into Inducks...well, that's for Stefan to figure out :-D
On Friday 23 May 2003 18:18, Someone U Know wrote:
> What if Don Rosa The duck Master wasn't An Engineer
> How his engineering Sense affected his Stories and His Art
Well, engineers (the worst of the kind ;-) have a sense for details
which sometimes takes over and leave out time for imagination and
fantasy.
Being an engineer myself, I am happy that most writers and artists are
not. What a boring world it would be, if only those who know about
Newton's 2nd etc. were writing stories.
When it comes to Disney comics, I find (if we must focus on education)
stories coming from e.g. the social science community, or for that
matter people we meet on the street, just about anybody not being
engineers much more attractive and facinating, that IMHO silly
engineering or mathematically based "factual" stories.
Perhaps, this is one of the reasons why I find LO$ so utterly boring. It
was written and presented as historical facts, and indeed it works and
is convincing. And then...after some time of consideration you realize
that it is only pseudo history and turn back to the true imaginative
stories like the Italian ones. Beware, I don't necessarily find Italian
more funnier or more thoughtful (well...hmmm :-) than Rosa, but at
least it's nice to feel and read those stories and silently conclude,
that they are not all based on some extremely strict recipe. No fanatic
true or false (just like in the real life).
Apparently you, Sigvald, fell for it. I can surely see why. Sorting
historical events into categories is both entertaining and helpful if
you wish to get an overview of a complex area--and Disney comics is
certainly one such.
Sigvald, your idea and conception of "foreign" alphabets really scares
me! Such opinions are extreme, so why not just admit it? It's okay,
this is a free and open minded mailing list...
S?ren
(who doesn't really care what language or alphabeth as long as we can
get it into Inducks...well, that's for Stefan to figure out :-D
Stefan Persson
Language! Narf! [mostly OT]
Message 462 -
2003-05-23 at 23:25:02
Sigvald Gr?sfjeld jr. wrote:
> Well, I like things to be correct.
According to the ISO 639-1 and 639-2 standards, Serbian and Croatian are
two different languages. I've understood that they are very closely
related, though---much more closely related than e.g. Swedish and Norwegian.
> Bah!!! I once mailed Anders And & Co in order to get a Danish name for one
> of Don Rosa's stories - I have never got any answer!
And what if you had sent your mail to Donald Duck & Co instead...?
> That was just a stupid joke in order to get attention.
It did not look like that.
> Asuming we are talking about an educated adult person here, I guess I would
> would think the same as as if someone appeard to be total unfamiliar with
> other international standards as: [...] the Celsius temperature
> scale,
SI only defines kelvin, not centigrades.
> * the siphres 0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8 and 9 as written in wester'n style.
You mean the numerals?
Stefan
> Well, I like things to be correct.
According to the ISO 639-1 and 639-2 standards, Serbian and Croatian are
two different languages. I've understood that they are very closely
related, though---much more closely related than e.g. Swedish and Norwegian.
> Bah!!! I once mailed Anders And & Co in order to get a Danish name for one
> of Don Rosa's stories - I have never got any answer!
And what if you had sent your mail to Donald Duck & Co instead...?
> That was just a stupid joke in order to get attention.
It did not look like that.
> Asuming we are talking about an educated adult person here, I guess I would
> would think the same as as if someone appeard to be total unfamiliar with
> other international standards as: [...] the Celsius temperature
> scale,
SI only defines kelvin, not centigrades.
> * the siphres 0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8 and 9 as written in wester'n style.
You mean the numerals?
Stefan
Stefan Persson
Swedes and character names in strange languages [mostly OT]
Message 463 -
2003-05-23 at 23:43:31
Sigvald Gr?sfjeld jr. wrote:
> Well then both types of readers should be respected by the publisher.
Then you would end up having to include every name for every character
in every language, which would require WAY too much space in the book.
> Bah!! That's only because noone else have botthered to complain.
Which is probably because there's no need for complaints.
> Oh, yes they have indeed. By showing such interest for Rich's topic that is.
We have only stated that we are interested in Chinese names, not
anything else. I find it interesting with the Japanese names, but would
have preferred some kind of transcription of the Arabic names,
preferrably in IPA or Japanese.
> That was only a stupid joke in order to get attention.
It did not look like that.
> No, I have never had any problems with those two characters - and IMO they
> are a part of the Latin alphabeth just like our own ? and ?, the German ?,
> etc. Norwegian and Danish kids unfamiliar with those letters would have no
> problems finding someone to help explaining those characters for them.
The Latin ALPHABET only includes characters used in Latin language. The
last three letters in the Swedish, Norwegian and Danish alphabets are
part of the Latin SCRIPT, though.
> For the outsiders I can add that (? = ? and ? = ?) so the way the letters
> look in the Scandinavian languages is the only difference.
"?" and "?" are different characters, just like "?" and "?" are
different. The fact that they are pronounced the same way, share the
same origin & are coded the same way in Morse code is unimportant. "?"
and "?" may both appear in the same text---for example, in a Swedish
text about you, "?" would be used for writing your name, while "?" would
be used everywhere else. Thus, they are different characters.
> For example: in
> Norwegian Text-TV the swedish variants are often used instead of the
> Norwegian ones.
Some language versions of MS-DOS do not include "?" and "?" but only "?"
and "?." This might be the reason to Text-TV using Swedish
characters---Text-TV might be limited to some ancient character set.
Stefan
> Well then both types of readers should be respected by the publisher.
Then you would end up having to include every name for every character
in every language, which would require WAY too much space in the book.
> Bah!! That's only because noone else have botthered to complain.
Which is probably because there's no need for complaints.
> Oh, yes they have indeed. By showing such interest for Rich's topic that is.
We have only stated that we are interested in Chinese names, not
anything else. I find it interesting with the Japanese names, but would
have preferred some kind of transcription of the Arabic names,
preferrably in IPA or Japanese.
> That was only a stupid joke in order to get attention.
It did not look like that.
> No, I have never had any problems with those two characters - and IMO they
> are a part of the Latin alphabeth just like our own ? and ?, the German ?,
> etc. Norwegian and Danish kids unfamiliar with those letters would have no
> problems finding someone to help explaining those characters for them.
The Latin ALPHABET only includes characters used in Latin language. The
last three letters in the Swedish, Norwegian and Danish alphabets are
part of the Latin SCRIPT, though.
> For the outsiders I can add that (? = ? and ? = ?) so the way the letters
> look in the Scandinavian languages is the only difference.
"?" and "?" are different characters, just like "?" and "?" are
different. The fact that they are pronounced the same way, share the
same origin & are coded the same way in Morse code is unimportant. "?"
and "?" may both appear in the same text---for example, in a Swedish
text about you, "?" would be used for writing your name, while "?" would
be used everywhere else. Thus, they are different characters.
> For example: in
> Norwegian Text-TV the swedish variants are often used instead of the
> Norwegian ones.
Some language versions of MS-DOS do not include "?" and "?" but only "?"
and "?." This might be the reason to Text-TV using Swedish
characters---Text-TV might be limited to some ancient character set.
Stefan
Sigvald Grøsfjeld Jr.
Language! Narf!
Message 464 -
2003-05-23 at 23:48:59
Olaf Solstrand <olaf at andebyonline.com> wrote:
> First, about Serbo-Croatian versus Jugoslavian:
> As this is NAMES, that can vary from country to
> country and not only from language to language
> (as Brazilian names may differ a little from
> Portuguese names and so on), I don't see any
> wrong in showing NATIONALITY instead of
> LANGUAGE here, and writing "Jugoslav" instead
> of "Serbo-Croatian".
Well, I like things to be correct.
> Besides: How many 10-year-olds in 1976 knew the
> term "Serbo-Croatian"?
I don't know, but I do know taht they would have learned it if that word had
been used in "Jeg, Mikke Mus" together with an explanation that it was the
language spoken in Jugoslavia.
Or do you think they also could have written "Sovjetisk" in stead of
"Russisk"?
> ....but that is why this list was printed.
Even though that list was printed to show that Disney comics is printed
around the world I don't see that as any excuse for leaving out the Swedish
names in the Norwegian book, and the other way around in the Swedish book.
> And I have no idea why you show "Spanish" in
> quotation marks over here
Just a mistake from me - sorry!
>> You seem to forget that I was 10-12 years old
>> at the time I first got "Jeg, Mikke Mus", by
>> then I was very interested to know the Swedish
>> names, but I didn't have the internet to help
>> me...
>
> I knew kids that also were interested in
> knowing this - and they got their answers by
> sending mail (plain old paper-mail) to Donald
> Duck & Co.
Bah!!! I once mailed Anders And & Co in order to get a Danish name for one
of Don Rosa's stories - I have never got any answer!
Besides I don't see that as any excuse for leaving out the Swedish names in
the Norwegian book, and the other way around in the Swedish book.
> I sincerely doubt that Italians and Americans
> were feeling that something was missing because
> there was no Swedish names in their "Io
> Topolino" books.
So what? I was concerning about Scandinavian children here, not Italians,
Americans or any other non-Scandinavians.
> 2) I haven't given you any reason to assume I
> support the attitudes behind that second
> translation.
>
> Oh - does that mean Stefan and Christina DID
> give you a reason to assume they support the
> attitudes behind leaving out Swedish names in
> a Norwegian book?
Ecactly - tehy did show the same entusiasm for "exotic" languages as I guess
the editors of "Jeg, Mikke Mus" did.
> And, concidering this was a discussion about
> Chinese names, should people have told Rich
> "shut up, we're not interested"?
No, that was why I ended my posting by saying that they could continue their
debate as I can help myself by now via the Internet. My whole intention of
that posting was to tell everbod about my opinions about the missing Swedish
names in "Jeg, Mikke Mus".
> 3) In my posting I din't ask anyone to
> apologize for the missing languages in
> "Jeg, Mikke Mus".
>
> No, but you certainly blamed all Swedes for
> this.
That was just a stupid joke in order to get attention.
> I was *not* calling oher languages "rubble"
> - I was adressing strange alphabets and signs
> *only* as rubble.
>
> 1) That did NOT show from your first post - it
> seemed obvious that you were refering to the
> languages themselves.
OK, I am sorry for that!
> 2) How is that better? You insulted all the
> users of a set of signs. How would you react
> if someone called the latin alphabet "rubble"?
Asuming we are talking about an educated adult person here, I guess I would
would think the same as as if someone appeard to be total unfamiliar with
other international standards as: the metric system, the Celsius temperature
scale, the Gregorian calendar, the Arabic siphres*, etc. I would would have
wondered how that person could have missed such important knowledge. yes I
know Americans and the British are using inches, feet, Fahreheit, etc., but
they still know about the other standards.
* the siphres 0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8 and 9 as written in wester'n style.
Sigvald :-)
> First, about Serbo-Croatian versus Jugoslavian:
> As this is NAMES, that can vary from country to
> country and not only from language to language
> (as Brazilian names may differ a little from
> Portuguese names and so on), I don't see any
> wrong in showing NATIONALITY instead of
> LANGUAGE here, and writing "Jugoslav" instead
> of "Serbo-Croatian".
Well, I like things to be correct.
> Besides: How many 10-year-olds in 1976 knew the
> term "Serbo-Croatian"?
I don't know, but I do know taht they would have learned it if that word had
been used in "Jeg, Mikke Mus" together with an explanation that it was the
language spoken in Jugoslavia.
Or do you think they also could have written "Sovjetisk" in stead of
"Russisk"?
> ....but that is why this list was printed.
Even though that list was printed to show that Disney comics is printed
around the world I don't see that as any excuse for leaving out the Swedish
names in the Norwegian book, and the other way around in the Swedish book.
> And I have no idea why you show "Spanish" in
> quotation marks over here
Just a mistake from me - sorry!
>> You seem to forget that I was 10-12 years old
>> at the time I first got "Jeg, Mikke Mus", by
>> then I was very interested to know the Swedish
>> names, but I didn't have the internet to help
>> me...
>
> I knew kids that also were interested in
> knowing this - and they got their answers by
> sending mail (plain old paper-mail) to Donald
> Duck & Co.
Bah!!! I once mailed Anders And & Co in order to get a Danish name for one
of Don Rosa's stories - I have never got any answer!
Besides I don't see that as any excuse for leaving out the Swedish names in
the Norwegian book, and the other way around in the Swedish book.
> I sincerely doubt that Italians and Americans
> were feeling that something was missing because
> there was no Swedish names in their "Io
> Topolino" books.
So what? I was concerning about Scandinavian children here, not Italians,
Americans or any other non-Scandinavians.
> 2) I haven't given you any reason to assume I
> support the attitudes behind that second
> translation.
>
> Oh - does that mean Stefan and Christina DID
> give you a reason to assume they support the
> attitudes behind leaving out Swedish names in
> a Norwegian book?
Ecactly - tehy did show the same entusiasm for "exotic" languages as I guess
the editors of "Jeg, Mikke Mus" did.
> And, concidering this was a discussion about
> Chinese names, should people have told Rich
> "shut up, we're not interested"?
No, that was why I ended my posting by saying that they could continue their
debate as I can help myself by now via the Internet. My whole intention of
that posting was to tell everbod about my opinions about the missing Swedish
names in "Jeg, Mikke Mus".
> 3) In my posting I din't ask anyone to
> apologize for the missing languages in
> "Jeg, Mikke Mus".
>
> No, but you certainly blamed all Swedes for
> this.
That was just a stupid joke in order to get attention.
> I was *not* calling oher languages "rubble"
> - I was adressing strange alphabets and signs
> *only* as rubble.
>
> 1) That did NOT show from your first post - it
> seemed obvious that you were refering to the
> languages themselves.
OK, I am sorry for that!
> 2) How is that better? You insulted all the
> users of a set of signs. How would you react
> if someone called the latin alphabet "rubble"?
Asuming we are talking about an educated adult person here, I guess I would
would think the same as as if someone appeard to be total unfamiliar with
other international standards as: the metric system, the Celsius temperature
scale, the Gregorian calendar, the Arabic siphres*, etc. I would would have
wondered how that person could have missed such important knowledge. yes I
know Americans and the British are using inches, feet, Fahreheit, etc., but
they still know about the other standards.
* the siphres 0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8 and 9 as written in wester'n style.
Sigvald :-)
Stefan Persson
What IF
Message 465 -
2003-05-23 at 23:52:33
Sigvald Gr?sfjeld jr. wrote:
> I know that there are some serious people in this list who have studied
> theology, would you just say that they have read the Bible and apparently
> they "fell for it"?
Are you thinking of Vidar Svendsen?
> There is *nothing wrong* with languages, alphabets or signs other that the
> ones we are familiar with, but some alphabets and signs are som unfamiliar
> to me that they just looks like dots and lines with no maning to me - thus I
> prefer text written with familiar letters in stead.
-.. --- - ... .- -. -.. .-.. .. -. . ... .-- .. - .... -. --- -- . .- -. .. -. --. - --- ... .. --. ...- .- .-.. -..
> > (who doesn't really care what language or
> > alphabeth as long as we can get it into
> > Inducks...well, that's for Stefan to figure
> > out :-D
>
> And I do agree!
8-)
Stefan
> I know that there are some serious people in this list who have studied
> theology, would you just say that they have read the Bible and apparently
> they "fell for it"?
Are you thinking of Vidar Svendsen?
> There is *nothing wrong* with languages, alphabets or signs other that the
> ones we are familiar with, but some alphabets and signs are som unfamiliar
> to me that they just looks like dots and lines with no maning to me - thus I
> prefer text written with familiar letters in stead.
-.. --- - ... .- -. -.. .-.. .. -. . ... .-- .. - .... -. --- -- . .- -. .. -. --. - --- ... .. --. ...- .- .-.. -..
> > (who doesn't really care what language or
> > alphabeth as long as we can get it into
> > Inducks...well, that's for Stefan to figure
> > out :-D
>
> And I do agree!
8-)
Stefan