I have just received box 6 of the Carl Barks Samlede verk hardcover book series. One of the stories in book #26 is "How Green Was my Lettuce". As a fan of Don Rosa I looked forward to see the two panels he restored for this story in 1989. Unfortunately for me (and any Rosa-fans?) those panels were replaced by two new panels apparently drawn by Daan Jippes. Rosas restored panels from 1989 wasn't even mentioned in the commentary. In my opinion they at least deserved to be presented in the history of restoring that story.
http://duckman.pettho.com/lettuce/lettuce_dr.jpg
This is Don Rosas panels (1989)
http://duckman.pettho.com/lettuce/lettuce_xx2.jpg
This is Daan Jippes' panels (2007 (my translation from Norwegian)
http://duckman.pettho.com/lettuce/lettuce_xx.jpg
This is Daan Jippes' panels (2007 (Norwegian text)
Hans, one of the Danish Barks-experts, has stated the Danish forum that Jippes' panels (to his taste) are to much Jippes. He didn't comment on Don's panels.
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Author
Topic: Don Rosa vs Daan Jippes
(23 messages)
Sigvald
Don Rosa vs Daan Jippes
Message 1 -
2007-03-24 at 02:53:38
Robb_K
Don Rosa vs Daan Jippes
Message 2 -
2007-03-24 at 05:40:21
Perhaps they are too much Jippes, and too little Barks, but they are a lot closer to Barks than Rosa's drawings, from my point of view.
JAlbertsen
Don Rosa vs Daan Jippes
Message 3 -
2007-03-24 at 09:16:06
Do the to (quite different) examples fill the exact same gap in the story? In that case the deciding factor should be who is closest to barks original intensions with the scene.
BTW: Don's expression in the first panel is way to much "Rosa" for a Carl Barks library
BTW: Don's expression in the first panel is way to much "Rosa" for a Carl Barks library
Olivier
Don Rosa vs Daan Jippes
Message 4 -
2007-03-24 at 10:45:34
1/ The panel's contents
I do not remember the details, but there does not seem to be any way to know what Barks had done in thee two panels, is there?
Could someone please translate the Jippes version?
From what I can make out, the nephews complain about the menu-- same old, same old, and typical of Uncle Scrooge; his reply seems pretty factual.
As for Rosa, his panels contain two gags: Scrooge's "no profit is too small" attitude, and Donalds sarcasm.
Which approach is the better is quite a matter of taste, as both respect Barks' characterization.
2/ The art
Rosa's Donald is indeed typical Rosa; it's actually one of the few things I am not too fond of in his approach: Donald's looks blasé too often.
Jippes's panels are quite typical as well. The first one is much busier: instead of a relative static portrait of two characters framed in a window, we get four, two of which are very expressive and dynamic.
The green capped nephew (I don't remember: is this Huey? Dewey is blue, I know) is very Barks-like: the pose is one that Barks drew often, and is natural here. This nephew is actually the one character is those two panels (four counting Rosa) that looks like a Barks duck the most.
A new version of these panels would be great. His style changed and improved a good deal, and his Junior Woodchuck stories are wonderful; quite Barksy, yet in his own style.
His Mouse covers are splendid, very Gottfredson-like.
I do not remember the details, but there does not seem to be any way to know what Barks had done in thee two panels, is there?
Could someone please translate the Jippes version?
From what I can make out, the nephews complain about the menu-- same old, same old, and typical of Uncle Scrooge; his reply seems pretty factual.
As for Rosa, his panels contain two gags: Scrooge's "no profit is too small" attitude, and Donalds sarcasm.
Which approach is the better is quite a matter of taste, as both respect Barks' characterization.
2/ The art
Rosa's Donald is indeed typical Rosa; it's actually one of the few things I am not too fond of in his approach: Donald's looks blasé too often.
Jippes's panels are quite typical as well. The first one is much busier: instead of a relative static portrait of two characters framed in a window, we get four, two of which are very expressive and dynamic.
The green capped nephew (I don't remember: is this Huey? Dewey is blue, I know) is very Barks-like: the pose is one that Barks drew often, and is natural here. This nephew is actually the one character is those two panels (four counting Rosa) that looks like a Barks duck the most.
A new version of these panels would be great. His style changed and improved a good deal, and his Junior Woodchuck stories are wonderful; quite Barksy, yet in his own style.
His Mouse covers are splendid, very Gottfredson-like.
Sigvald
Don Rosa vs Daan Jippes
Message 5 -
2007-03-24 at 16:01:39
Quote from user: Robb_KPerhaps they are too much Jippes, and too little Barks, but they are a lot closer to Barks than Rosa's drawings, from my point of view.
Anyway, if for instance Gemstone decided to dismiss both present versions due to people's claims of them being partly non-barks style, and then asked you to redraw this two-panel sequence, what would your version look like?
Quote from user: OlivierCould someone please translate the Jippes version?
Done! I have also kept the Norwegian version so that people familiar with Norwegian can compare my English translation with the original Norwegian text.
Anyway, if for instance Gemstone decided to dismiss both present versions due to people's claims of them being partly non-barks style, and then asked you to redraw this two-panel sequence, what would your version look like?
Quote from user: OlivierCould someone please translate the Jippes version?
Done! I have also kept the Norwegian version so that people familiar with Norwegian can compare my English translation with the original Norwegian text.
Olivier
Don Rosa vs Daan Jippes
Message 6 -
2007-03-24 at 19:36:09
Thanks, Sigvald!
I can't believe I didn't guess the meaning of "minefeltet"; it's so obvious now.
Your new question is interesting; what might we have the ducks do & say in these panels? and firstly, what purpose should they serve? gag only? information?
Now I have the corresponding CBLiC album in hand, I see how difficult it is to fill this gap (I did not remember exactly):
- within two panels, Scrooge tries to grap a head of lettuce, which was clearly seen in a previous panel
- the lettuce disappears
- in the following panels, he tries again, this time watching the lettuce
I don't have enough imagination, but the comparison between Rosa and Jippes' approaches is interesting.
Both are really good; Rosa's gag is in character, while Jippes has the nephew reply to the allusion to the minefield in a funny way.
Rosa keeps the point of view the same (from the outside in), respecting Barks' in the page, while Jippes switches angles to show us the office; however good the nephews' dialogue is, maybe the consistency in viewpoint ought to have been prioritary. However, I love his second panel: great angle; the problem, though, is that we see the lettuce disappear; we don't know what Barks had there, but I like the idea that the reader witnesses the theft along with the ducks, in the second next panel.
In short, while I like Jippes's minefield gag (continuity & humor) and love his second panel, I think Rosa's focus on Scrooge and Donald, seen from the outside (same viewpoint as in Barks' panel in the same page) fits better in the page and makes for good timing (discovering the missing lettuce); it is a bit static, though.
Conclusion: to complete this page, I think one
- should preserve the external viewpoint
- and keep the focus on the ducks, so that we discover the mystery with them rather than before they do.
The problem is then to come up with a good dalogue for so little action-- something funny, probably.
Despite this analysis, I still like Jippes' version a lot, though, for its continuity and dynamism (moving ducks in the first panel, nice angle in the second one).
http://scroogemacduck.free.fr/smileys/ducks_A/don34001m.giflivier
- PS -
Reading a bit further, and thus beyond the topic's-- uh-- topic, I love the panels of Scrooge carrying a gigantic moneybag; great gag: visually, and implicitly (how fast Scrooge reacted to gather that much, and that he had such a bag in the first place).
I can't believe I didn't guess the meaning of "minefeltet"; it's so obvious now.
Your new question is interesting; what might we have the ducks do & say in these panels? and firstly, what purpose should they serve? gag only? information?
Now I have the corresponding CBLiC album in hand, I see how difficult it is to fill this gap (I did not remember exactly):
- within two panels, Scrooge tries to grap a head of lettuce, which was clearly seen in a previous panel
- the lettuce disappears
- in the following panels, he tries again, this time watching the lettuce
I don't have enough imagination, but the comparison between Rosa and Jippes' approaches is interesting.
Both are really good; Rosa's gag is in character, while Jippes has the nephew reply to the allusion to the minefield in a funny way.
Rosa keeps the point of view the same (from the outside in), respecting Barks' in the page, while Jippes switches angles to show us the office; however good the nephews' dialogue is, maybe the consistency in viewpoint ought to have been prioritary. However, I love his second panel: great angle; the problem, though, is that we see the lettuce disappear; we don't know what Barks had there, but I like the idea that the reader witnesses the theft along with the ducks, in the second next panel.
In short, while I like Jippes's minefield gag (continuity & humor) and love his second panel, I think Rosa's focus on Scrooge and Donald, seen from the outside (same viewpoint as in Barks' panel in the same page) fits better in the page and makes for good timing (discovering the missing lettuce); it is a bit static, though.
Conclusion: to complete this page, I think one
- should preserve the external viewpoint
- and keep the focus on the ducks, so that we discover the mystery with them rather than before they do.
The problem is then to come up with a good dalogue for so little action-- something funny, probably.
Despite this analysis, I still like Jippes' version a lot, though, for its continuity and dynamism (moving ducks in the first panel, nice angle in the second one).
http://scroogemacduck.free.fr/smileys/ducks_A/don34001m.giflivier
- PS -
Reading a bit further, and thus beyond the topic's-- uh-- topic, I love the panels of Scrooge carrying a gigantic moneybag; great gag: visually, and implicitly (how fast Scrooge reacted to gather that much, and that he had such a bag in the first place).
Robb_K
Don Rosa vs Daan Jippes
Message 7 -
2007-03-24 at 20:39:06
I think Daan's fits the story's needs better (especially the continuity) as Olivier pointed out. The first panel shows what The Nephews were doing, and bridges the gap to the later panel, where they are removing tomatoes, and show the bread again. But the second panel is ESSENTIAL to show the reader that the lettuce heads are being pulled into the ground, to understand Scrooge's surprise in subsequently seeing that a lettuce head is not where he was sure he'd seen it before. It also is a clue to the estute reader, that gophers may be the cause.
I think that Rosa's word gags are humourous, but don't move the story along, and are there at the great cost of losing continuity and suspense. I think Daan's staging is much more likely to be closer to what Barks had originally, than Rosa's.
Interesting to me that Daan has always told me that writing stories from scratch is very difficult. But, we can see (especially through his re-staging of sequences Freddy Milton presented to him, and this "filling in the blank panels"), that when given something to work with, Daan is an excellent staging editor. He has a great sense for what should go where to keep the story moving along with regard to staging, pacing, providing suspense and character mood and motivation.
Daan's 2nd panel is essential to show the follow-through of scrooge reaching for the first lettuce. We don't just want to hear about it later (that he reached for the first lettuce, and that we also see after-the-fact, that he thought it was there but it isn't). It's much better for us to see it being removed (in live action).
I think that Rosa's word gags are humourous, but don't move the story along, and are there at the great cost of losing continuity and suspense. I think Daan's staging is much more likely to be closer to what Barks had originally, than Rosa's.
Interesting to me that Daan has always told me that writing stories from scratch is very difficult. But, we can see (especially through his re-staging of sequences Freddy Milton presented to him, and this "filling in the blank panels"), that when given something to work with, Daan is an excellent staging editor. He has a great sense for what should go where to keep the story moving along with regard to staging, pacing, providing suspense and character mood and motivation.
Daan's 2nd panel is essential to show the follow-through of scrooge reaching for the first lettuce. We don't just want to hear about it later (that he reached for the first lettuce, and that we also see after-the-fact, that he thought it was there but it isn't). It's much better for us to see it being removed (in live action).
Olivier
Don Rosa vs Daan Jippes
Message 8 -
2007-03-24 at 23:13:50
I like this discussion. It would be great to compare other panels and stories-- I guess most of them would be Barks' Woodchuck stories, but also some of Gottfredson's strips, which the publishers had Paul Murry draw again for some reason (to fit the comic book format, I believe).
Robb_K
Don Rosa vs Daan Jippes
Message 9 -
2007-03-25 at 00:31:49
Quote from user: SigvaldQuote from user: Robb_KPerhaps they are too much Jippes, and too little Barks, but they are a lot closer to Barks than Rosa's drawings, from my point of view.
Anyway, if for instance Gemstone decided to dismiss both present versions due to people's claims of them being partly non-barks style, and then asked you to redraw this two-panel sequence, what would your version look like?
Due to the points I made above, I would say Daan did a GREAT job of keeping the continuity of Barks' story, varying the point of view (I wouldn't keep it outside the Money Bin), and keeping up Scrooge's motivation. I wouldn't change what he did much, and think I might have, independently, come up with something similar.
The rough drawings below show how mine would have differed slightly:
http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j56/Robb_K/Lettuce2-1.jpg
I wouldn't have had BOTH nephews with strongly emotional poses, as (like Branca's most active panels, it's TOO MUCH, and draws attention away from the overall information desired by the writer to be absorbed by the reader. I agree fully with Daan's gag. The reader NEEDS to learn how much Scrooge values his tasty lettuce for his wonderful lettuce and tomato sandwiches. So the second panel is good for his expressing that feeling, while it follows naturally from The Nephews' joking that no thieves would walk through a minefield to steal LETTUCE! Notice how Daan cut off the top of Scrooge's head, to reduce his importance in the panel, as what he wants the reader to concentrate on, is the lettuce head dropping into the hole. My difference with his is just a matter of taste. In mine, Scrooge (and his talking to Donald (and implied that he's also talking to The Nephews, further inside) is still less important than the lettuce dropping into the hole, but we understand more clearly why Scrooge isn't looking at the lettuce head (which I believe, is very important to his later motivation).
I changed the English wording to make the point more clearly. I also added a view of Donald's head in Panel 2, just to keep the "star" in the story, as well as to see who Scrooge is speaking too, so we know why he takes his eyes OFF the lettuce (which is an important event for keeping suspense at this point in the story. If this didn't occur, some of the readers might get the feeling that the author just had Scrooge take his eyes OFF the lettuce because he NEEDED that for the story. Even though that is TRUE, the author doesn't want the reader to be jerked out of his "living inside the story", to contemplate what the author is trying to do. The best comic book stories (just as with films) keep the reader immersed in the story, with no awareness of his/her former life and the outside World.
This staging and these gags continue Barks' story in a much better way. Rosa's joke is decent, but by using it, he leaves out necessary emotion of Scrooge, needed to make his later motivation work. Also, Rosa's second panel, with Scrooge seeing that no lettuce head came up with his grabbing tool, leaves out a very important element: the reader seeing that the lettuce head is pulled down into a hole in the earth beneath it.
Anyway, if for instance Gemstone decided to dismiss both present versions due to people's claims of them being partly non-barks style, and then asked you to redraw this two-panel sequence, what would your version look like?
Due to the points I made above, I would say Daan did a GREAT job of keeping the continuity of Barks' story, varying the point of view (I wouldn't keep it outside the Money Bin), and keeping up Scrooge's motivation. I wouldn't change what he did much, and think I might have, independently, come up with something similar.
The rough drawings below show how mine would have differed slightly:
http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j56/Robb_K/Lettuce2-1.jpg
I wouldn't have had BOTH nephews with strongly emotional poses, as (like Branca's most active panels, it's TOO MUCH, and draws attention away from the overall information desired by the writer to be absorbed by the reader. I agree fully with Daan's gag. The reader NEEDS to learn how much Scrooge values his tasty lettuce for his wonderful lettuce and tomato sandwiches. So the second panel is good for his expressing that feeling, while it follows naturally from The Nephews' joking that no thieves would walk through a minefield to steal LETTUCE! Notice how Daan cut off the top of Scrooge's head, to reduce his importance in the panel, as what he wants the reader to concentrate on, is the lettuce head dropping into the hole. My difference with his is just a matter of taste. In mine, Scrooge (and his talking to Donald (and implied that he's also talking to The Nephews, further inside) is still less important than the lettuce dropping into the hole, but we understand more clearly why Scrooge isn't looking at the lettuce head (which I believe, is very important to his later motivation).
I changed the English wording to make the point more clearly. I also added a view of Donald's head in Panel 2, just to keep the "star" in the story, as well as to see who Scrooge is speaking too, so we know why he takes his eyes OFF the lettuce (which is an important event for keeping suspense at this point in the story. If this didn't occur, some of the readers might get the feeling that the author just had Scrooge take his eyes OFF the lettuce because he NEEDED that for the story. Even though that is TRUE, the author doesn't want the reader to be jerked out of his "living inside the story", to contemplate what the author is trying to do. The best comic book stories (just as with films) keep the reader immersed in the story, with no awareness of his/her former life and the outside World.
This staging and these gags continue Barks' story in a much better way. Rosa's joke is decent, but by using it, he leaves out necessary emotion of Scrooge, needed to make his later motivation work. Also, Rosa's second panel, with Scrooge seeing that no lettuce head came up with his grabbing tool, leaves out a very important element: the reader seeing that the lettuce head is pulled down into a hole in the earth beneath it.
Pmspg
Don Rosa vs Daan Jippes
Message 10 -
2007-03-25 at 13:29:12
Robb_K,
I apreciate your redrawing of the panels.
You corrected 2 things I don't like in Daan Jippes' panels :
a) The face of the nephew with red cap (in Jippes' panels). His eyes are looking at a direction that is not the direction of the action.
b) The absent face of Donald at the window in the second panel. Your drawing is more natural and more linked to the precedent panel.
Pmspg
I apreciate your redrawing of the panels.
You corrected 2 things I don't like in Daan Jippes' panels :
a) The face of the nephew with red cap (in Jippes' panels). His eyes are looking at a direction that is not the direction of the action.
b) The absent face of Donald at the window in the second panel. Your drawing is more natural and more linked to the precedent panel.
Pmspg
Sigvald
Don Rosa vs Daan Jippes
Message 11 -
2007-03-25 at 14:07:14
Quote from user: PmspgRobb_K,
I apreciate your redrawing of the panels.
You corrected 2 things I don't like in Daan Jippes' panels :
a) The face of the nephew with red cap (in Jippes' panels). His eyes are looking at a direction that is not the direction of the action.
b) The absent face of Donald at the window in the second panel. Your drawing is more natural and more linked to the precedent panel.
I agree, Rob's drawing is just great!
I apreciate your redrawing of the panels.
You corrected 2 things I don't like in Daan Jippes' panels :
a) The face of the nephew with red cap (in Jippes' panels). His eyes are looking at a direction that is not the direction of the action.
b) The absent face of Donald at the window in the second panel. Your drawing is more natural and more linked to the precedent panel.
I agree, Rob's drawing is just great!
JAlbertsen
Don Rosa vs Daan Jippes
Message 12 -
2007-03-25 at 15:36:02
It is indeed, but besides the contributions to the danish donaldist publication "Rappet" we haven't seen much of it! Maybe one day we will see a release of all Rob's scetches... and frown upon Perez, Branca, Vicar and others who has been drawing his stories :p
Olivier
Don Rosa vs Daan Jippes
Message 13 -
2007-03-25 at 15:48:09
Quote from user: Robb_KI wouldn't have had BOTH nephews with strongly emotional poses
Agreed; in fact, I find the first one's pose a bit awkward in Jippe's panel.
Quote from user: Robb_Kit follows naturally from The Nephews' joking that no thieves would walk through a minefield to steal LETTUCE!
How could I overlook this?! It's a very nice bit of dialogue, that heightens the surprise: no one could walk and steal the lettuce in this minefield, yet it disappears.
Quote from user: Robb_KRosa's second panel, with Scrooge seeing that no lettuce head came up with his grabbing tool, leaves out a very important element: the reader seeing that the lettuce head is pulled down into a hole in the earth beneath it.
I still find it better not to see it yet, as the vanishing act is repeated.
Thanks for the drawings! Very nice.
Agreed; in fact, I find the first one's pose a bit awkward in Jippe's panel.
Quote from user: Robb_Kit follows naturally from The Nephews' joking that no thieves would walk through a minefield to steal LETTUCE!
How could I overlook this?! It's a very nice bit of dialogue, that heightens the surprise: no one could walk and steal the lettuce in this minefield, yet it disappears.
Quote from user: Robb_KRosa's second panel, with Scrooge seeing that no lettuce head came up with his grabbing tool, leaves out a very important element: the reader seeing that the lettuce head is pulled down into a hole in the earth beneath it.
I still find it better not to see it yet, as the vanishing act is repeated.
Thanks for the drawings! Very nice.
Harukuro
Don Rosa vs Daan Jippes
Message 14 -
2007-03-25 at 15:53:47
I like your drawing a lot Robb (it suits the situation the best and makes a bit more sense) but I have one thing to say...what happened to Scrooge's glasses in the first panel? :/ But we all make mistakes so it's okay. :)
Robb_K
Don Rosa vs Daan Jippes
Message 15 -
2007-03-25 at 15:57:33
Quote from user: JAlbertsenIt is indeed, but besides the contributions to the danish donaldist publication "Rappet" we haven't seen much of it! Maybe one day we will see a release of all Rob's scetches... and frown upon Perez, Branca, Vicar and others who has been drawing his stories :p
Thank you J. I DO hope to do, at least, final pencil drawing of magazine covers and stories. I doubt that I will be able to do that AND become good enough at inking to also ink my own stories.
I may not be perfectly happy about what Xavi, Torres-Perez, Barreira, Santanach, Secuderas or Alfarez-Canos did to my stories, but I am happy and proud that good artists like Branca, Gulbransson, Scalabroni, Vicar and Bas Heymans have made my stories look better. I am only sorry that my version of Barks' "Queen of the Apple Festival", was rejected, in favour of Geoffry Blum's (as my friend, Daan Jippes (and favourite living Duck artist) had agreed to draw it for me)). That would have been a highlight in my career. But, perhaps I will work with him some day.
Thank you J. I DO hope to do, at least, final pencil drawing of magazine covers and stories. I doubt that I will be able to do that AND become good enough at inking to also ink my own stories.
I may not be perfectly happy about what Xavi, Torres-Perez, Barreira, Santanach, Secuderas or Alfarez-Canos did to my stories, but I am happy and proud that good artists like Branca, Gulbransson, Scalabroni, Vicar and Bas Heymans have made my stories look better. I am only sorry that my version of Barks' "Queen of the Apple Festival", was rejected, in favour of Geoffry Blum's (as my friend, Daan Jippes (and favourite living Duck artist) had agreed to draw it for me)). That would have been a highlight in my career. But, perhaps I will work with him some day.
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