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Topic: 3 tier? 4 tier?

(11 messages)
Kneon
So I'm wondering about tiers. And I'm sure some folks on here can help me out.
Disney comics really are different from, say, modern superhero comics in terms of layout -- most adhere to 3 and 4 tier layouts, correct?
Is this a hard and fast rule? And if so... why?
Is there a reason for it from a publishing standpoint, or is it simply to maintain some visual continuity with Western comics?
Now I know most American publishers used 4 tier layouts until the mid-late 60s, when artists began to experiment with page layouts. Today, very few mainstream comics publishers use the classic 3/4 tier layout, with the exception of maybe Archie.
I will agree that many of today's superhero comics are flashy, but difficult to follow. However that's not always the case. Some artists have been able to strike a nice balance between visual flair and readability.
So I'm curious as to why Disney comics still use relatively strict page layouts, which publishers use 3 or 4 tiers, etc. If I'm not mistaken, the Italians seem to prefer 3 tiers to 4... why is that?
Just to be clear, the purpose of my asking this is *not* to criticize the use of standardized layouts, just curious as to why Disney comics still adhere to them.
Thanks!
Coolwater
In the beginning, in the early fourties, Barks (and other Disney comic artists) originally drew stories with 3 tiers. But the format was soon changed to 4 tiers, because one wanted to save paper in the war. The story with the kites, drawn by Barks originally with3 tiers, was even cut down by the editors and published in 4 tiers in "Walt Disney's Comics & Stories". (In the Collected Works Edition it was restored.)
Italian stories usually have 3 tiers because most Italian Disney comic books have pocket book size!
Actually I never racked my brains why it should be anything else then 3 or 4 tiers in usually "strict" layout: for me it's always only the question if it should be in that way 3 or 4 tiers, since the size of Disney publications varies between large-size album and pocket book. 2 or 5 tiers would be, however, too extreme for both, I guess ...
I don't know if therer is anything like a "rule" at Disney, I guess it's just simply convention that the stories appear like that. Actually one does find stories where the layout of pages falls out of the line a bit, especially Italian ones (such of "experimental" character and with a "dynamic" touch), but think also of some pages showing circus scenery in Barks's "Big Top Bedlam".
You've probably read in fact too much superhero stories that the question arises for you. I hardly ever bothered about superheroes who aren't as far as popular in Europe as they are in America. In other comic series that are popular here, especially Franco-Belgian series like Asterix, Lucky Luke, Tintin, the layout uses to be orderly and reader-friendly, too ...
Kneon
Sadly, in America 95% of what's being published is superhero material and/or action, scifi, etc. I do think some variety in page layouts is nice but as you and I both pointed out, readability often suffers.
I honestly think the motivation behind a lot of superhero artist's layout choices is motivated by relying on the sales of their original pages. Dynamic layouts look nice framed... even if you can't tell what's going on in the story. Covers often command a higher price, so why not make the interior pages look like covers as well? ;)
Thanks for the answer, Coolwater.
EDIT: So one more question... 4 tier pages... are they drawn on 11x17" artboard like standard comics, or do they go larger? I once read that Don Rosa drew each page in two halves, and looking at an original Barks on eBay (only $12,000.00!) that it appears that page was drawn in two halves as well...?
Coolwater
The illegibleness of the stuff because of layout frippery is what annoys me more than often when I am in the comic special shop and flip a bit through all those (high-price) "art" comics. And I do not think that it is in every case the intellectual complexness and exclusiveness of the work that causes the reading problems ... ;)
Superheroes have conquered some space in the last years but are at least here, still in a minority position. What, however, has its own tricks of reading and what seems to have rised up like a comet in the last years here are mangas. One sees whole masses of that stuff in cheap make-up in the country's newsstands where 15 and 20 years ago was practically the exclusive realm of Donald Duck, Asterix and Lucky Luke. Decadence ...
Coolwater
Quote from user: KneonEDIT: So one more question... 4 tier pages... are they drawn on 11x17" artboard like standard comics, or do they go larger? I once read that Don Rosa drew each page in two halves, and looking at an original Barks on eBay (only $12,000.00!) that it appears that page was drawn in two halves as well...?
Yes, indeed, Barks usually cut the big drawing paper he got in two halves, each of it for a half page of artwork. Even if Rosa seemed to follow him with that exactly I do not think that it is actual standard or duty for all Disney artists to draw their pages in exactly that one large size. I've read sometimes comments that the originals of Barks, and his colleagues, were somehow extraordinarily large. They got their paper from Western Publishing. Now I don't know if all of today's producers of Disney comics use exactly that same size, I guess basically some of the artists are able to draw their stories smaller ... (not necessarily Rosa with his over-detailed artwork ;))

Doesn't really look too big for me, such a half, but I don't know what original size other artists prefer ...

http://www.helnwein.com/stc/ghpicts/gh2061.jpg
Robb_K
In the 1940s and 1950s, a lot of the artists drew on large paper in half-page segments. In the 1960s more started drawing on whole pages that are smaller in total size than the two half-pages put together. The half-page (A3) is as big as 2 A4 letter sized sheets (a small % larger than comic book page size). So, Barks drew at more than 4 times printed size. Current artists average drawing closer to 3 times the printed size, and most that I know of draw on whole pages. Drawing on half-pages disallows having a tall panel spanning the middle tiers.
I like to draw on half-pages. One can draw small details much more easily on the larger size.
Cacou
Most French comics in the 80s (and UK Disney comic in the 50s maybe?) used 5-tier journal layout, with 3 panels per strip:

Robb_K
That looks like 4-tier in your example, with shaving one tier thinner to make a thicker splashpanel.
Cacou
Quote from user: Robb_KThat looks like 4-tier in your example, with shaving one tier thinner to make a thicker splashpanel.
You're right of course, in fact the first page is not representative of the layout of the following pages (and so my scans are not so relevant, indeed). However, interior pages are really 5-tier, which you can guess in the first scan, where the first tier is larger than the others. Unfortunately, I did not have scans of interior pages at hand.
WB
I've drawn in all three formats (3-tier, 4-tier, and dynamic) and each has their own advantages and disadvantages.
3-tier allows for greater room in the artwork at the expense of story space.
4-tier allows for a far greater amount of story to go in one space, but the artwork is drastically cut down at that level unless you do what Rosa and Barks did and draw on half pages.
The problem with half pages is that it doesn't really allow for a dynamic layout design.
Dynamic Layouts allow you to achieve things you could NEVER do in a 3 or 4 tier layout BUT if done wrong your page can be not that easy to follow, and not everyone really knows what they are doing when they do it, resulting in messy and/or cluttered layouts.
I've seen the benefits and disasters of all three personally and professionally so I cant really say which one is my favorite, just which one I prefer when it comes to the story as an artist that dabbles in all three.
Robb_K
We know that Barks used half pages for the most part, but when he needed a giant panel (as with the sea monster in "That's No Fable", or on pages with crazy panel patterns (for an agitated mood), he had to use a large single page). So, in some stories, he used both methods. There was no hard and fast rule. But, if I remember correctly, he never had a splash panel in the middle of the page, as Egmont frequently does.
In writing a story, and drawing the storyboards, after editing a story to add a story element in, and still make everything fit onto the page limit (or to not have a one tier overflow or an extra half-page, I find that needing to fit all splash panels into the top or bottom halfpage can be a large problem. So, finishing artists I work with who use half pages (such as Jan Gulbransson), have to be flexible to use a large full page, when necessary.
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