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Quote from user: LPJThe nephews say: "Yippee! Gran'ma's comin' t' visit us!" Why would they call her Grandma if she's their great-grandma?
For the same reason they call Scrooge "Unca" even if he's their great uncle. Because it's shorter.

Quote from user: LPJDonald says: "Hi yuh, Gran'ma!" But that's a very ordinary thing to do when children are around.
But Donald *always* calls her "Grandma", "Granny", "Gran", even when the nephews are not around. He *never* calls her "mother" or "mum".

Example: http://coa.inducks.org/story.php?c=YD+48-09-29

Quote from user: LPJGeneration gap, yes. Not age gap.
There's *definitely* an age gap. Grandma travelled West in a covered wagon. She has kept money from during the Civil War. *Grandpa* apparently even *fought* in the Civil War. Even if these dates are impossible, they denote an age difference that's far greater than that between a mother and her son.

Grandpa (?) in Civil War uniform: http://coa.inducks.org/story.php?c=YD+48-04-10 (scan is unclear)

Quote from user: LPJIf Daisy was based on Lucy and Grandma Duck was based on Donnie... Then why would Grandma be *two* generations older than Donald (and Daisy) instead of just one?
I don't see how that proves anything. The match is simply not very precise. If Donnie was Lucy's mother, then why is Grandma not Daisy's mother? If Al Taliaferro owned a Scottish Terrier, then why is Bolivar a St. Bernard? Did Taliaferro's cousin dump her triplets on his doorstep?

My grandparents were also great-grandparents. Several of my parents' brothers and sisters are great grandparents. All of the great grandchildren do now, or did call their great grandparents "Grandma" or "Oma" (Dutch equivalent) and "Grandpa" or "Opa", because calling them "Great Grandma" or "Groot Oma" is too cumbersome. For the Great ones, they just add their first name after Grandma or Grandpa, or they have a different designation for their grandparents other than Grandma and Grandpa (such as Granny, Nana (Na Na), Grandpop, Poppa, Poppy, Papi).
That situation is true among most families I have met in Canada, USA, The Netherlands, Belgium, Denmark and Germany. I can't remember even ONE great grandchild addressing his/her great grandparent attaching "Great" to Grandma, Grandpa, Grandmother or Grandfather. Only Heidi used that, but she was formal because she was afraid of her grandfather, as she had not known him.
Nevertheless, it seems that, as in the case of other Disney characters, Grandma Duck has been interpreted differently by different authors in different stories, and so, can be Donald's great great grandmother, great grandmother, grandmother, and mother in terms of age and generations removed from him in any given story or daily strip.
Just as it is difficult (nee impossible) to reconcile Barks' use of characters and historical events and dates and geographical places from story to story, it is yet more difficult to reconcile different authors' implications regarding those story elements. It is futile to attempt to pin these elements down to a single "correct" "canon".

Thanks for your information, David! It doesn't pertain much to the issue at hand, but it's still appreciated. :)

Quote from user: ramapithBolivar first appeared in the cartoons ALPINE CLIMBERS and MORE KITTENS (both 1936). Perhaps Taliaferro and/or his writers simply liked the character design and decided to adopt it.
"Character design" is the key here. It's hard to determine if one St. Bernard is the same individual as another St. Bernard, especially when the dog goes unnamed. The modern Bolivar doesn't look much like his cartoon counterpart, apart from being the same breed of dog, but Taliaferro's earliest use of Bolivar is a *dead ringer* for the nameless dog in the cartoon. That makes it justified to identify them as the same cartoon character.

1) http://outducks.org/us/zz/yd/1938/us_zz1938d17d_001.png

http://coa.inducks.org/story.php?c=YD+38-03-17

4) http://outducks.org/us/zz/yd/1938/us_zz1938e25d_001.png

http://coa.inducks.org/story.php?c=YD+38-04-25

Bolivar doesn't make that face much nowadays, does he? He did in the cartoons! :)

Quote from user: Robb_KAll of the great grandchildren do now, or did call their great grandparents "Grandma" or "Oma" (Dutch equivalent) and "Grandpa" or "Opa", because calling them "Great Grandma" or "Groot Oma" is too cumbersome.
Thanks for your input, Rob! It supports my argument. (I didn't know the word "Grootoma" existed, but it does! "Overgrootmoeder" is more common, though, and even more cumbersome.)

Quote from user: Robb_KGrandma Duck has been interpreted differently by different authors in different stories, and so, can be Donald's great great grandmother, great grandmother, grandmother, and mother in terms of age and generations removed from him in any given story or daily strip. [...] It is futile to attempt to pin these elements down to a single "correct" "canon".
But that's not what I'm trying to do here! I try to prove that in Taliaferro's gags, Grandma Duck is Donald's grandmother. No more, no less. I'm not even trying to reconcile different authors, since *all* Taliaferro's Grandma-gags were written by Bob Karp, according to Inducks.

Can someone show me a Taliaferro-gag that irrefutably states Grandma is Donald's mother? Her calling him "son" is clearly not enough, since he consistently calls her "grandma", "granny" or "gran".

"And I'm sure there are tons of similar strips. I wouldn't be surprised if Grandma evolved into becoming Donald's grandmother. But it's pretty likely (to me, at least) that when Grandma started out she was intended to be Donald's mother."
This is my assumption, as well.It seems to me that Taliaferro brought her in to be a grandmother to Donald's nephews, not to him. Grandmothers usually spoil their grandchildren and side with them against the parents. The parents need to discipline the child. Grandparents, who live somewhere else, don't need to hand out discipline and have the child temporarily angry at them or resentful. They see the child sporadically, and therefore, want to have the most positive, enjoyable, quality time with them as possible. Thus, they shower them with gifts, play with them and show interest in their interests almost every second of their time together.
Grandma Duck lives away from Donald and his "Children". She would try to "spoil" The Nephews behind his back, and be strict with Donald. That IS what we see from her early visits. She is very hard on Donald (as a mother would be). She chastises him for not being more strict and careful with The Boys. She is critical of his housekeeping. This is exactly how my mother acted when she visited my apartment or house. I would bet more mothers act like that than those that "spoil" their adult children. Furthermore, I would bet that a LOT more grandmothers, who don't dwell together with their grandchildren, spoil them and have fun together with them, rather than criticise and act strict with them.
These are reasons why I believe that Taliaferro meant for "Grandma" to be Donald's mother. But, he probably didn't have Donald call her "Mom", as he didn't want to get in the way of Disney's practise of not showing parents of main characters. Taliaferro wanted a grandmotherly figure for The Nephews, and to interfere with the relationship between Donald and them. But, it wasn't necessary for his purposes, to identify her directly and irrefutably as Donald's mother.
Over the years, other writers and artists needed Grandma for other purposes. And, so, - she was used as Donald's Grandmother, and even implied (erroneously) as a great, great grandmother, to fit into an historical timeline desired in a specific story (all because they didn't feel it necessary to bring in an extra new character, and possibly, ruffle feathers of the editorship). So, because of these types of events, we have an ambiguous geography and history of Duckburg, Mouseville/Mouseton and Calisota, and ambiguous family trees and histories of the characters.

"Further, Donald almost immediately introduces her to Daisy, still consistently calling her 'Grandma'. You'd assume that, at least with his girlfriend, he'd refer to her as his mother. None of that.
Even in those early strips in 1943, Grandma is already firmly established as Donald's grandmother. *If* Taliaferro and Karp intended her as Donald's mother, that plan was pretty soon abandoned."
I agree with this 100%. I think that Taliaferro/Karp originally intended her as Donald's mother. And that changed as they saw how they wanted to use her in the strip. Most of the gags did not necessitate their risking breaking Disney's rule of not showing main characters parents directly. So, they figured, "why rock the boat?". They slipped into using her as Donald's grandmother, who could be even older and more old fashioned, which could, in turn, lead to more funny gags.

I think that even making the extremely limited claim that Taliaferro and Karp had a coherent continuity in mind is probably untoward.

Quote from user: Lars JensenSince you're the one making the claim (that Grandma is and always has been Donald's grandmother in Taliaferro's strips), you're the one who has to find the evidence to support that claim.
What do you think I'm trying to do here? I only suggest that, if you have hard evidence to the contrary, by all means supply it.

Quote from user: Robb_KIt seems to me that Taliaferro brought her in to be a grandmother to Donald's nephews, not to him. Grandmothers usually spoil their grandchildren and side with them against the parents. The parents need to discipline the child.
Thank you for your cogent reasoning, Rob. I'm much more partial to this kind of argument than to the analogy with Taliaferro's mother-in-law. You make a very good point. I won't even try to refute it.

[quote=Robb_K]She is critical of his housekeeping. This is exactly how my mother acted when she visited my apartment or house.
:D You're not the only one!

Quote from user: Robb_KBut, he probably didn't have Donald call her "Mom", as he didn't want to get in the way of Disney's practise of not showing parents of main characters.
I wonder how well-established that practise was in 1943. I know Mickey's and Donald's nephews had already made their debute, but still.

Quote from user: Robb_KAnd, so, - she was used as Donald's Grandmother, and even implied (erroneously) as a great, great grandmother, to fit into an historical timeline desired in a specific story.
They did that? In which story and for which reasons? Could you be more specific?

Quote from user: GeoXI think that even making the extremely limited claim that Taliaferro and Karp had a coherent continuity in mind is probably untoward.
But surely they would decide on the kind of relationship between characters? It's not as if HDL are suddenly Daisy's nephews. That stuff only happened to Mickey Mouse. ;)