Moderators: if this is not an appropriate topic, I won´t be offended if it is removed.
As silly as this may sound to many of you, I just finished reading ?The Life and Times of Scrooge McDuck" by Don Rosa for the first time. I was not reading Uncle Scrooge when it was released in the US in ?94. I bought the nice Gemstone softcover version about three years ago. I?ve been waiting for a special time to read it. I?ve had a couple of chances but finally decided to pull it out here in Costa Rica, where I?m spending the summer with my wife?s family.
Before I get into my review, I want to say a brief word about Rosa. He?s one of the best comic authors of our time. I don?t think there is a single living author who has given me more enjoyment. I?ve been reading his ?non-Life and Times" work for a few years and I get a kick out of his stuff time and time again.
?The Life and Times of Scrooge McDuck" is a massive undertaking. I?m glad that Rosa wrote it, although I have a few complaints along with my compliments.
I personally don?t think there is a need to catalog Scrooge?s life as such minutia. I understand the desire to do it. Basically, Rosa took the small comments that Carl Barks made about Scrooge?s past, and then fit it into a puzzle. By his own confessions in the articles between the chapters, he cut and pasted and overlooked a lot of Barks? comments. In a way, that diminished the idea of creating a series based on the little comments Barks wrote about Scrooge?s past. Personally, I don?t think Barks intended for Scrooge to have such an incredibly intricate, well-connected, well-scripted story behind Scrooge. I think Barks intended for Scrooge to have a rather unending story behind his fortune. Rosa?s vision is different, similar to the Star Trek fan who picks apart episodes in order to create a map of the galaxy. From what I?ve read on the internet and in Rosa?s articles, he is first to admit that he?s a fanboy who intentionally wanted to dissect Barks? work. So, I don?t exactly like the idea of cataloging Scrooge?s life, but Rosa does a good job of it (as far as storytelling goes?I have no idea about the facts Barks mentions).
This series reinforced my idea that Rosa grew up reading the cluttered pages of magazine rack comics like Mad Magazine. I?m sure I?m not the only one who sees Sergio Aragones-like action in the panels. Nobody in the business does a better job of cramming so much art onto one page (the one exception was the first page of the ?Citizen Kane" intro, which I thought was out of place, contrived and uninteresting). For me, it?s impossible to flip through the pages of any Rosa comic. There is so much going on all the time, and I love it. A great example is on page 25, when Scrooge enters Louisville. I spent several minutes enjoying that middle panel.
I was a disappointed, although not surprised, at a lot of the ?little brown people oppression." I studied Latin American History and Black Studies for a long time, so perhaps I?m reading too much of this into the series. Scrooge conquers Africa better than the Africans, figures out Australia better than the Aboriginals, and outsmarts the Natives in South America better than the Natives. I realize that Barks did a lot of this as well and that it was not intended as some kind of a racist comment. I just don?t like it that much. I especially did not like Scrooge finding some white European goons to ransack the African village that was so terrorizing that the other superstitious Africans were afraid to go near it. Likewise, I hated seeing Scrooge get kicked out of the voodoo village dressed as a ?Black Mammy." Do we still find any of that funny?
I also did not like the history lessons that Rosa included: Scrooge running into Teddy Roosevelt, the Dalton Gang, the Titanic, and so forth. Rosa said that his original first chapter was to detail how the ?MacDuich" clan was around for all the big events in history. If Rosa had written far back enough, a McDuck would?ve moved the boulder from the tomb of Lazarous. Parts of the comic just got overly pedantic, like the snag boats on the Mississippi or the Dreamtime chapter. I realize that Rosa likes to show off these bits of history and culture that he has studied, but I thought it got in the way of the stories. I?m just not impressed that Rosa was able to open an almanac and find the year that the Statue of Liberty was built or find a book at the library and learn about shaft mining.
I had problems with some of the coloring. I don?t think this was Rosa?s fault. I can?t give any specifics, except when Scrooge is standing over his mother?s grave, which was clearly intended to be shiny and not run-down. (I?m just being overly critical now, aren?t I?)
Rosa has a wonderful sense of timing in these stories. Each chapter, with the two exceptions McDuck Heaven and the ?Rosebud" scenes, has wonderful pacing and action. The third person narration was used only when needed, unlike a lot of other comics these days, where the narration is ugly. The dialogue was rarely sticky and almost always pleasing to read.
It was sometimes hard to swallow, but I accepted the coincidental encounters with other Duckburg characters, like Gyro Geareloose?s grandfather and Flintheart Glomgold, and even some fellow who know about Barks? Square Eggs. For me, those chance meetings were a little corny, kind of like when we learned that Darth Vader actually built C3PO as a child.
My last complaint is that Rosa admits to going back to his comic and revising one of the panels to show a drawing of his Eisner Award. I found that distasteful, as I think Rosa was a little too full of himself and that interrupted my reading of the story.
Looking back on my comments here, it?s obvious that I am being overly critical in some areas. Of course I stand by these criticisms, but they make it seem like I didn?t enjoy the series. Nothing could be further from the truth. I spent two weeks, reading a chapter each day, on ?The Life and Times of Scrooge McDuck," and I enjoyed it completely. It?s got many interesting stories, plenty of delightful gags, and Rosa?s beautiful, cluttered art. I got my dollar?s worth out of this collection and I think most readers will as well. Yes, I have plenty of complaints with it, but the book is definitely worth reading.
--mvblair
Author
Topic: My First Reading of "The Life and Times of Uncle Scrooge"
(58 messages)
Mvblair
My First Reading of "The Life and Times of Uncle Scrooge"
Message 1 -
2008-07-19 at 23:04:15
Roger North
My First Reading of "The Life and Times of Uncle Scrooge"
Message 2 -
2008-07-20 at 12:20:41
I actually like The Life and Times of Scrooge McDuck. I don't see anything racist about it. I first read the series back when it was published in the original issues (Uncle Scrooge #s 285-296) and it was one of my favorite storylines. I thought it was cool that Don Rosa built this story based on facts from Carl Barks stories. I thought the story was even more interesting when I had all 12 chapters. I ordered the TPB a few years later and found there was some alternate dialog in some of the chapters like in Part 3 page 6 panel 5 the original script had Teddy Roosevelt saying Duckbill Dinosaur followed by Scrooge saying Oh So? I'm not flattered. In the TPB Teddy says Prehistoric Dyneosaurus and Scrooge says I hate to see the critter wearing its skin. In Part 8 page 2 panel 5 the original script had Scrooge saying that he was called several scary but not quite accurate names In the TPB they removed the word not. The Life and Times of Scrooge McDuck had been one of my favorite stories since it first came out.
Mvblair
My First Reading of "The Life and Times of Uncle Scrooge"
Message 3 -
2008-07-20 at 21:53:28
Quote from user: Roger NorthThe Life and Times of Scrooge McDuck had been one of my favorite stories since it first came out.
Mine too, although you can´t tell by reading my review. :D
Mine too, although you can´t tell by reading my review. :D
Roger North
My First Reading of "The Life and Times of Uncle Scrooge"
Message 4 -
2008-07-21 at 11:29:11
What a coincidence mvblair.
Argonaut
My First Reading of "The Life and Times of Uncle Scrooge"
Message 5 -
2008-07-23 at 02:20:10
Quote from user: mvblairI was a disappointed, although not surprised, at a lot of the ?little brown people oppression." I studied Latin American History and Black Studies for a long time, so perhaps I?m reading too much of this into the series. Scrooge conquers Africa better than the Africans, figures out Australia better than the Aboriginals, and outsmarts the Natives in South America better than the Natives.
He also pulls more gold out of the Yukon than the Canadians do, and arrests Soapy Slick while the Mounties were terrified to set foot in Dawson. Do I, as a Canadian, find that insulting? No, I find the notion laughable. :)
Scrooge traveled the world, mastering everything he got involved in. That's one of the major aspects of his life story. It's not about him doing everything better than the locals (and certainly not "oppression" for goodness sakes), it's about him devoting his life to his goals and attaining all the benefits that come from that-- which includes expertise.
He also pulls more gold out of the Yukon than the Canadians do, and arrests Soapy Slick while the Mounties were terrified to set foot in Dawson. Do I, as a Canadian, find that insulting? No, I find the notion laughable. :)
Scrooge traveled the world, mastering everything he got involved in. That's one of the major aspects of his life story. It's not about him doing everything better than the locals (and certainly not "oppression" for goodness sakes), it's about him devoting his life to his goals and attaining all the benefits that come from that-- which includes expertise.
Roger North
My First Reading of "The Life and Times of Uncle Scrooge"
Message 6 -
2008-07-23 at 12:05:05
Well Said Argonaut. I agree with you 100%.
Rodney
My First Reading of "The Life and Times of Uncle Scrooge"
Message 7 -
2008-07-23 at 12:33:29
It's also worth noting that none of this should be taken TOO seriously. None of this could ever happen in real life. I've always thought it was told with the tone of a "tall tale". Surely Barks treated these moments that way, sort of like Paul Bunyun or something.
Olivier
My First Reading of "The Life and Times of Uncle Scrooge"
Message 8 -
2008-07-23 at 16:13:33
( Gee, have I really postponed replying here that long? )
Those are interesting comments, MV; though I don't agree with everything (Argonaut has already addressed one of those points), I liked reading this account of flaws or criticisms found within an overall very positive opinion.
Rodney's answer completes Argonaut's, so all I need do now is tie them together.
The point is not that Scrooge knows better than the natives, but that he learns from them and anyone he encounters (foes included) and eventually knows better than anyone.
The little twist is that it's a Bildungsroman-cum-tall tale: everything is amplified, and not only does he learn from people, he also teaches the very best-- if I remember correctly, at point in the newer stories (or maybe Chapter 12), he mentions casually that he taught Wild Bill Hicock how to lasso buffaloes or some such thing.
This does not account for the "Black Mammy" gag you mention, which probably derives from Rosa's love of "old" comedies. Wouldn't it be more offensive if the natives were highly stereotyped in such a way? This does not quite address the criticism either, though.
Argonaut referred you to the Mounties, and I could refer you to the Arpin Lusène stories for French stereotypes-- which do not bother me; what bothers me is that the poor English you hear or read when people want to portray Frenchmen does not match the actual mistakes Frenchmen make.
Anyway, I wonder: are we less sensitive to this because its our own culture (Canadian or French, here)? are we afraid of a racist interpretation, that a gag might offend people, out of an ancestral colonizer's guilt? I don't mean racism does not exist in comics, but we might have become overly sensitive due to "political correctness" and lawsuits and fear offense when there is none intended nor felt by the persons concerned.
(This topic was broached in another thread, on Gottfredson's Mickey Mouse strips).
Those are interesting comments, MV; though I don't agree with everything (Argonaut has already addressed one of those points), I liked reading this account of flaws or criticisms found within an overall very positive opinion.
Rodney's answer completes Argonaut's, so all I need do now is tie them together.
The point is not that Scrooge knows better than the natives, but that he learns from them and anyone he encounters (foes included) and eventually knows better than anyone.
The little twist is that it's a Bildungsroman-cum-tall tale: everything is amplified, and not only does he learn from people, he also teaches the very best-- if I remember correctly, at point in the newer stories (or maybe Chapter 12), he mentions casually that he taught Wild Bill Hicock how to lasso buffaloes or some such thing.
This does not account for the "Black Mammy" gag you mention, which probably derives from Rosa's love of "old" comedies. Wouldn't it be more offensive if the natives were highly stereotyped in such a way? This does not quite address the criticism either, though.
Argonaut referred you to the Mounties, and I could refer you to the Arpin Lusène stories for French stereotypes-- which do not bother me; what bothers me is that the poor English you hear or read when people want to portray Frenchmen does not match the actual mistakes Frenchmen make.
Anyway, I wonder: are we less sensitive to this because its our own culture (Canadian or French, here)? are we afraid of a racist interpretation, that a gag might offend people, out of an ancestral colonizer's guilt? I don't mean racism does not exist in comics, but we might have become overly sensitive due to "political correctness" and lawsuits and fear offense when there is none intended nor felt by the persons concerned.
(This topic was broached in another thread, on Gottfredson's Mickey Mouse strips).
Morequack
My First Reading of "The Life and Times of Uncle Scrooge"
Message 9 -
2008-07-25 at 16:57:55
Quote from user: mvblairModerators: if this is not an appropriate topic, I won´t be offended if it is removed.
...
I personally don?t think there is a need to catalog Scrooge?s life as such minutia. I understand the desire to do it. Basically, Rosa took the small comments that Carl Barks made about Scrooge?s past, and then fit it into a puzzle. By his own confessions in the articles between the chapters, he cut and pasted and overlooked a lot of Barks? comments. In a way, that diminished the idea of creating a series based on the little comments Barks wrote about Scrooge?s past. Personally, I don?t think Barks intended for Scrooge to have such an incredibly intricate, well-connected, well-scripted story behind Scrooge. I think Barks intended for Scrooge to have a rather unending story behind his fortune. Rosa?s vision is different, similar to the Star Trek fan who picks apart episodes in order to create a map of the galaxy. From what I?ve read on the internet and in Rosa?s articles, he is first to admit that he?s a fanboy who intentionally wanted to dissect Barks? work. So, I don?t exactly like the idea of cataloging Scrooge?s life, but Rosa does a good job of it (as far as storytelling goes?I have no idea about the facts Barks mentions).
This series reinforced my idea that Rosa grew up reading the cluttered pages of magazine rack comics like Mad Magazine. I?m sure I?m not the only one who sees Sergio Aragones-like action in the panels. Nobody in the business does a better job of cramming so much art onto one page (the one exception was the first page of the ?Citizen Kane" intro, which I thought was out of place, contrived and uninteresting). For me, it?s impossible to flip through the pages of any Rosa comic. There is so much going on all the time, and I love it. A great example is on page 25, when Scrooge enters Louisville. I spent several minutes enjoying that middle panel.
I was a disappointed, although not surprised, at a lot of the ?little brown people oppression." I studied Latin American History and Black Studies for a long time, so perhaps I?m reading too much of this into the series. Scrooge conquers Africa better than the Africans, figures out Australia better than the Aboriginals, and outsmarts the Natives in South America better than the Natives. I realize that Barks did a lot of this as well and that it was not intended as some kind of a racist comment. I just don?t like it that much. I especially did not like Scrooge finding some white European goons to ransack the African village that was so terrorizing that the other superstitious Africans were afraid to go near it. Likewise, I hated seeing Scrooge get kicked out of the voodoo village dressed as a ?Black Mammy." Do we still find any of that funny?
I also did not like the history lessons that Rosa included: Scrooge running into Teddy Roosevelt, the Dalton Gang, the Titanic, and so forth. Rosa said that his original first chapter was to detail how the ?MacDuich" clan was around for all the big events in history. If Rosa had written far back enough, a McDuck would?ve moved the boulder from the tomb of Lazarous. Parts of the comic just got overly pedantic, like the snag boats on the Mississippi or the Dreamtime chapter. I realize that Rosa likes to show off these bits of history and culture that he has studied, but I thought it got in the way of the stories. I?m just not impressed that Rosa was able to open an almanac and find the year that the Statue of Liberty was built or find a book at the library and learn about shaft mining.
I had problems with some of the coloring. I don?t think this was Rosa?s fault. I can?t give any specifics, except when Scrooge is standing over his mother?s grave, which was clearly intended to be shiny and not run-down. (I?m just being overly critical now, aren?t I?)
Rosa has a wonderful sense of timing in these stories. Each chapter, with the two exceptions McDuck Heaven and the ?Rosebud" scenes, has wonderful pacing and action. The third person narration was used only when needed, unlike a lot of other comics these days, where the narration is ugly. The dialogue was rarely sticky and almost always pleasing to read.
It was sometimes hard to swallow, but I accepted the coincidental encounters with other Duckburg characters, like Gyro Geareloose?s grandfather and Flintheart Glomgold, and even some fellow who know about Barks? Square Eggs. For me, those chance meetings were a little corny, kind of like when we learned that Darth Vader actually built C3PO as a child.
My last complaint is that Rosa admits to going back to his comic and revising one of the panels to show a drawing of his Eisner Award. I found that distasteful, as I think Rosa was a little too full of himself and that interrupted my reading of the story.
..
--mvblair
Well, I don't have a whole lotta time to respond at length, but my very brief two cents on several points.
Personally, I find it benignly duplicitous to stress to commend the L&T all over the place and then to compile such a prodigious collection of negatives. Most basic and not least of all the very core of the undertaking: the cataloguing of Scrooge?s life as such. That's quite a substantial ?small" complaint! Like the dichotomy of jumbo-shrimp.
Nevertheless, I completely disagree. The fact that Scrooge's life has a timeline, a history, a measure, as all real persons do, makes our hero all that more real, more dimensional, and more ?human." I do wish that Rosa?s editors had allowed him to keep the chapters the length that he would have liked them to be.
I can?t even visit the ?Black Mammy" issue. It simply holds no water for me. History is what it is and to deny it or censor it serves no purpose or no one.
And, I LOVE injecting history into anything and everything at all times! The L&T is no exception, and in fact this is an absolutely necessary ingredient in the stew, as far as I?m concerned. Rosa?s research in and knowledge of history does nothing but enrich the saga and make it exciting and grander in scale. Barks often did likewise.
...
I personally don?t think there is a need to catalog Scrooge?s life as such minutia. I understand the desire to do it. Basically, Rosa took the small comments that Carl Barks made about Scrooge?s past, and then fit it into a puzzle. By his own confessions in the articles between the chapters, he cut and pasted and overlooked a lot of Barks? comments. In a way, that diminished the idea of creating a series based on the little comments Barks wrote about Scrooge?s past. Personally, I don?t think Barks intended for Scrooge to have such an incredibly intricate, well-connected, well-scripted story behind Scrooge. I think Barks intended for Scrooge to have a rather unending story behind his fortune. Rosa?s vision is different, similar to the Star Trek fan who picks apart episodes in order to create a map of the galaxy. From what I?ve read on the internet and in Rosa?s articles, he is first to admit that he?s a fanboy who intentionally wanted to dissect Barks? work. So, I don?t exactly like the idea of cataloging Scrooge?s life, but Rosa does a good job of it (as far as storytelling goes?I have no idea about the facts Barks mentions).
This series reinforced my idea that Rosa grew up reading the cluttered pages of magazine rack comics like Mad Magazine. I?m sure I?m not the only one who sees Sergio Aragones-like action in the panels. Nobody in the business does a better job of cramming so much art onto one page (the one exception was the first page of the ?Citizen Kane" intro, which I thought was out of place, contrived and uninteresting). For me, it?s impossible to flip through the pages of any Rosa comic. There is so much going on all the time, and I love it. A great example is on page 25, when Scrooge enters Louisville. I spent several minutes enjoying that middle panel.
I was a disappointed, although not surprised, at a lot of the ?little brown people oppression." I studied Latin American History and Black Studies for a long time, so perhaps I?m reading too much of this into the series. Scrooge conquers Africa better than the Africans, figures out Australia better than the Aboriginals, and outsmarts the Natives in South America better than the Natives. I realize that Barks did a lot of this as well and that it was not intended as some kind of a racist comment. I just don?t like it that much. I especially did not like Scrooge finding some white European goons to ransack the African village that was so terrorizing that the other superstitious Africans were afraid to go near it. Likewise, I hated seeing Scrooge get kicked out of the voodoo village dressed as a ?Black Mammy." Do we still find any of that funny?
I also did not like the history lessons that Rosa included: Scrooge running into Teddy Roosevelt, the Dalton Gang, the Titanic, and so forth. Rosa said that his original first chapter was to detail how the ?MacDuich" clan was around for all the big events in history. If Rosa had written far back enough, a McDuck would?ve moved the boulder from the tomb of Lazarous. Parts of the comic just got overly pedantic, like the snag boats on the Mississippi or the Dreamtime chapter. I realize that Rosa likes to show off these bits of history and culture that he has studied, but I thought it got in the way of the stories. I?m just not impressed that Rosa was able to open an almanac and find the year that the Statue of Liberty was built or find a book at the library and learn about shaft mining.
I had problems with some of the coloring. I don?t think this was Rosa?s fault. I can?t give any specifics, except when Scrooge is standing over his mother?s grave, which was clearly intended to be shiny and not run-down. (I?m just being overly critical now, aren?t I?)
Rosa has a wonderful sense of timing in these stories. Each chapter, with the two exceptions McDuck Heaven and the ?Rosebud" scenes, has wonderful pacing and action. The third person narration was used only when needed, unlike a lot of other comics these days, where the narration is ugly. The dialogue was rarely sticky and almost always pleasing to read.
It was sometimes hard to swallow, but I accepted the coincidental encounters with other Duckburg characters, like Gyro Geareloose?s grandfather and Flintheart Glomgold, and even some fellow who know about Barks? Square Eggs. For me, those chance meetings were a little corny, kind of like when we learned that Darth Vader actually built C3PO as a child.
My last complaint is that Rosa admits to going back to his comic and revising one of the panels to show a drawing of his Eisner Award. I found that distasteful, as I think Rosa was a little too full of himself and that interrupted my reading of the story.
..
--mvblair
Well, I don't have a whole lotta time to respond at length, but my very brief two cents on several points.
Personally, I find it benignly duplicitous to stress to commend the L&T all over the place and then to compile such a prodigious collection of negatives. Most basic and not least of all the very core of the undertaking: the cataloguing of Scrooge?s life as such. That's quite a substantial ?small" complaint! Like the dichotomy of jumbo-shrimp.
Nevertheless, I completely disagree. The fact that Scrooge's life has a timeline, a history, a measure, as all real persons do, makes our hero all that more real, more dimensional, and more ?human." I do wish that Rosa?s editors had allowed him to keep the chapters the length that he would have liked them to be.
I can?t even visit the ?Black Mammy" issue. It simply holds no water for me. History is what it is and to deny it or censor it serves no purpose or no one.
And, I LOVE injecting history into anything and everything at all times! The L&T is no exception, and in fact this is an absolutely necessary ingredient in the stew, as far as I?m concerned. Rosa?s research in and knowledge of history does nothing but enrich the saga and make it exciting and grander in scale. Barks often did likewise.
Roger North
My First Reading of "The Life and Times of Uncle Scrooge"
Message 10 -
2008-07-25 at 20:18:45
You're right Morequack. It's not a good idea to make negative slams towards The Life and Times of Scrooge McDuck.
Lars Jensen
My First Reading of "The Life and Times of Uncle Scrooge"
Message 11 -
2008-07-28 at 22:07:22
We've already discussed this, but I suppose I'd better make it clear once again:
It is ABSOLUTELY OK to criticize any Disney story on this forum, as long as we keep a civil (and libel-free) tone. Mvblair had some problems with The Life and Times of Scrooge McDuck and was perfectly in his right to say so. And yes, others in this thread didn't have these problems with the story and were of course also in their right to say so.
Let's try to respect that some of us have different tastes, preferences and opinions.
It is ABSOLUTELY OK to criticize any Disney story on this forum, as long as we keep a civil (and libel-free) tone. Mvblair had some problems with The Life and Times of Scrooge McDuck and was perfectly in his right to say so. And yes, others in this thread didn't have these problems with the story and were of course also in their right to say so.
Let's try to respect that some of us have different tastes, preferences and opinions.
Morequack
My First Reading of "The Life and Times of Uncle Scrooge"
Message 12 -
2008-07-28 at 22:45:23
Quote from user: Lars JensenWe've already discussed this, but I suppose I'd better make it clear once again:
It is ABSOLUTELY OK to criticize any Disney story on this forum, as long as we keep a civil (and libel-free) tone. Mvblair had some problems with The Life and Times of Scrooge McDuck and was perfectly in his right to say so. And yes, others in this thread didn't have these problems with the story and were of course also in their right to say so.
Let's try to respect that some of us have different tastes, preferences and opinions.
True enough, and self-evident. I don't see any disrespect anywhere. Opinions have been submitted and countered with more opinions.
It is ABSOLUTELY OK to criticize any Disney story on this forum, as long as we keep a civil (and libel-free) tone. Mvblair had some problems with The Life and Times of Scrooge McDuck and was perfectly in his right to say so. And yes, others in this thread didn't have these problems with the story and were of course also in their right to say so.
Let's try to respect that some of us have different tastes, preferences and opinions.
True enough, and self-evident. I don't see any disrespect anywhere. Opinions have been submitted and countered with more opinions.
LadyQuackly
My First Reading of "The Life and Times of Uncle Scrooge"
Message 13 -
2008-07-31 at 19:34:26
Quote from user: Roger NorthThis thread is supposed about The Life and Times of Scrooge McDuck but you people are talking about Panchito who is not even in this story.
I'm sorry, Roger. I don't even know how that topic wound up there, I was just going with the flow. Maybe Olivier can move the replies to a separate thread.
The only connection involved might be that Don Rosa did a couple of stories with Panchito in them.
Otherwise, a whole different ball game entirely.
UPDATE: I think I see the connection now. There was some discussion of the treatment of races in the stories or something.
[Note from Cacou: yep, I actually wanted to split this thread. Now done: Panchito messages moved to this new thread]
I'm sorry, Roger. I don't even know how that topic wound up there, I was just going with the flow. Maybe Olivier can move the replies to a separate thread.
The only connection involved might be that Don Rosa did a couple of stories with Panchito in them.
Otherwise, a whole different ball game entirely.
UPDATE: I think I see the connection now. There was some discussion of the treatment of races in the stories or something.
[Note from Cacou: yep, I actually wanted to split this thread. Now done: Panchito messages moved to this new thread]
Roger North
My First Reading of "The Life and Times of Uncle Scrooge"
Message 14 -
2008-08-01 at 12:45:18
That is True Lady Quackly.
Mvblair
My First Reading of "The Life and Times of Uncle Scrooge"
Message 15 -
2008-08-02 at 20:42:39
Hi gang, sorry I took so long to respond to some of the comments here. I didn't expect so many.
Quote from user: Roger NorthI asked Don Rosa about that Black Mammy Thing and he said I could channel him. He said that putting Scrooge in a pigskin sack and putting bones in his hair does not qualify dressing him up as a black mammy. Don Rosa doesn't have control over the coloring notes for the foreign publications so don't assume that he does. You may think Don Rosa is racist but he is not and I think he would be offended if he knew that you think he is. Mvblair I don't know if you know this or not but Don Rosa sometimes visits and he would not like you accusing of him of being racist. That black mammy theory is all in your head. You should be careful what you say about people in the future because you know who you're going to offend.
I didn't accuse Don Rosa of being racist. In my original post I wrote "I hated seeing Scrooge get kicked out of the voodoo village dressed as a ?Black Mammy." Do we still find any of that funny?" I guess some of you think it is funny. I don't think you're racists. I don't think Don Rosa is racist, although I do think that gag is racist. It's the kind of humor I would expect to come from the '20s, not the '90s. Now, I understand that this is my view and apparently not the view of the readers here or of Don Rosa. Am I reading too much into it? I said in my original post that I probably am. But I do find that kind of humor offensive. I'm sorry if I offend some of you because of that, but I think you should all admit that this type of humor should be addressed in a much more sensative manner.
Quote from user: MorequackWell, I don't have a whole lotta time to respond at length, but my very brief two cents on several points.
Personally, I find it benignly duplicitous to stress to commend the L&T all over the place and then to compile such a prodigious collection of negatives. Most basic and not least of all the very core of the undertaking: the cataloguing of Scrooge?s life as such. That's quite a substantial ?small" complaint! Like the dichotomy of jumbo-shrimp.
Well, like I said, I enjoyed reading the book. Maybe you don't think it's OK to criticize something you enjoy, but I'm OK with it.
Quote from user: MorequackI can?t even visit the ?Black Mammy" issue. It simply holds no water for me. History is what it is and to deny it or censor it serves no purpose or no one.
Well, I think Rosa wrote the story in the '90s, not the '20s. That's my problem with it.
Quote from user: MorequackAnd, I LOVE injecting history into anything and everything at all times! The L&T is no exception, and in fact this is an absolutely necessary ingredient in the stew, as far as I?m concerned. Rosa?s research in and knowledge of history does nothing but enrich the saga and make it exciting and grander in scale. Barks often did likewise.
You might be right, I just thought it was a little pedantic, that's all.
Quote from user: ArgonautHe also pulls more gold out of the Yukon than the Canadians do, and arrests Soapy Slick while the Mounties were terrified to set foot in Dawson. Do I, as a Canadian, find that insulting? No, I find the notion laughable.
Scrooge traveled the world, mastering everything he got involved in. That's one of the major aspects of his life story. It's not about him doing everything better than the locals (and certainly not "oppression" for goodness sakes), it's about him devoting his life to his goals and attaining all the benefits that come from that-- which includes expertise.
Good point. I think you're right on this account.
Quote from user: OlivierThose are interesting comments, MV; though I don't agree with everything (Argonaut has already addressed one of those points), I liked reading this account of flaws or criticisms found within an overall very positive opinion.
Well, just to emphasize, I really DID like the stories. :D
Quote from user: OlivierRodney's answer completes Argonaut's, so all I need do now is tie them together.
The point is not that Scrooge knows better than the natives, but that he learns from them and anyone he encounters (foes included) and eventually knows better than anyone.
The little twist is that it's a Bildungsroman-cum-tall tale: everything is amplified, and not only does he learn from people, he also teaches the very best-- if I remember correctly, at point in the newer stories (or maybe Chapter 12), he mentions casually that he taught Wild Bill Hicock how to lasso buffaloes or some such thing.
Well, those are fair points as well.
Quote from user: OlivierThis does not account for the "Black Mammy" gag you mention, which probably derives from Rosa's love of "old" comedies. Wouldn't it be more offensive if the natives were highly stereotyped in such a way?
Yes. It would have been much more offensive. That's why I don't think Rosa is racist here. I think he just made an offensive gag.
Quote from user: OlivierAnyway, I wonder: are we less sensitive to this because its our own culture (Canadian or French, here)? are we afraid of a racist interpretation, that a gag might offend people, out of an ancestral colonizer's guilt? I don't mean racism does not exist in comics, but we might have become overly sensitive due to "political correctness" and lawsuits and fear offense when there is none intended nor felt by the persons concerned.
Yes. Yes, I think you're absolutely right. I think people all over the world are generally OK with making fun of their own cultures, but we do tend to have overly "politically correct" attitudes toward others. Maybe that's where I'm coming from, even if it is skewed too "politically correct."
Quote from user: Roger NorthI asked Don Rosa about that Black Mammy Thing and he said I could channel him. He said that putting Scrooge in a pigskin sack and putting bones in his hair does not qualify dressing him up as a black mammy. Don Rosa doesn't have control over the coloring notes for the foreign publications so don't assume that he does. You may think Don Rosa is racist but he is not and I think he would be offended if he knew that you think he is. Mvblair I don't know if you know this or not but Don Rosa sometimes visits and he would not like you accusing of him of being racist. That black mammy theory is all in your head. You should be careful what you say about people in the future because you know who you're going to offend.
I didn't accuse Don Rosa of being racist. In my original post I wrote "I hated seeing Scrooge get kicked out of the voodoo village dressed as a ?Black Mammy." Do we still find any of that funny?" I guess some of you think it is funny. I don't think you're racists. I don't think Don Rosa is racist, although I do think that gag is racist. It's the kind of humor I would expect to come from the '20s, not the '90s. Now, I understand that this is my view and apparently not the view of the readers here or of Don Rosa. Am I reading too much into it? I said in my original post that I probably am. But I do find that kind of humor offensive. I'm sorry if I offend some of you because of that, but I think you should all admit that this type of humor should be addressed in a much more sensative manner.
Quote from user: MorequackWell, I don't have a whole lotta time to respond at length, but my very brief two cents on several points.
Personally, I find it benignly duplicitous to stress to commend the L&T all over the place and then to compile such a prodigious collection of negatives. Most basic and not least of all the very core of the undertaking: the cataloguing of Scrooge?s life as such. That's quite a substantial ?small" complaint! Like the dichotomy of jumbo-shrimp.
Well, like I said, I enjoyed reading the book. Maybe you don't think it's OK to criticize something you enjoy, but I'm OK with it.
Quote from user: MorequackI can?t even visit the ?Black Mammy" issue. It simply holds no water for me. History is what it is and to deny it or censor it serves no purpose or no one.
Well, I think Rosa wrote the story in the '90s, not the '20s. That's my problem with it.
Quote from user: MorequackAnd, I LOVE injecting history into anything and everything at all times! The L&T is no exception, and in fact this is an absolutely necessary ingredient in the stew, as far as I?m concerned. Rosa?s research in and knowledge of history does nothing but enrich the saga and make it exciting and grander in scale. Barks often did likewise.
You might be right, I just thought it was a little pedantic, that's all.
Quote from user: ArgonautHe also pulls more gold out of the Yukon than the Canadians do, and arrests Soapy Slick while the Mounties were terrified to set foot in Dawson. Do I, as a Canadian, find that insulting? No, I find the notion laughable.
Scrooge traveled the world, mastering everything he got involved in. That's one of the major aspects of his life story. It's not about him doing everything better than the locals (and certainly not "oppression" for goodness sakes), it's about him devoting his life to his goals and attaining all the benefits that come from that-- which includes expertise.
Good point. I think you're right on this account.
Quote from user: OlivierThose are interesting comments, MV; though I don't agree with everything (Argonaut has already addressed one of those points), I liked reading this account of flaws or criticisms found within an overall very positive opinion.
Well, just to emphasize, I really DID like the stories. :D
Quote from user: OlivierRodney's answer completes Argonaut's, so all I need do now is tie them together.
The point is not that Scrooge knows better than the natives, but that he learns from them and anyone he encounters (foes included) and eventually knows better than anyone.
The little twist is that it's a Bildungsroman-cum-tall tale: everything is amplified, and not only does he learn from people, he also teaches the very best-- if I remember correctly, at point in the newer stories (or maybe Chapter 12), he mentions casually that he taught Wild Bill Hicock how to lasso buffaloes or some such thing.
Well, those are fair points as well.
Quote from user: OlivierThis does not account for the "Black Mammy" gag you mention, which probably derives from Rosa's love of "old" comedies. Wouldn't it be more offensive if the natives were highly stereotyped in such a way?
Yes. It would have been much more offensive. That's why I don't think Rosa is racist here. I think he just made an offensive gag.
Quote from user: OlivierAnyway, I wonder: are we less sensitive to this because its our own culture (Canadian or French, here)? are we afraid of a racist interpretation, that a gag might offend people, out of an ancestral colonizer's guilt? I don't mean racism does not exist in comics, but we might have become overly sensitive due to "political correctness" and lawsuits and fear offense when there is none intended nor felt by the persons concerned.
Yes. Yes, I think you're absolutely right. I think people all over the world are generally OK with making fun of their own cultures, but we do tend to have overly "politically correct" attitudes toward others. Maybe that's where I'm coming from, even if it is skewed too "politically correct."