Quote from user: LadyQuackly
[Note from Cacou: yep, I actually wanted to split this thread. Now done: Panchito messages moved to this new thread]
Good. :)
Author
Topic: My First Reading of "The Life and Times of Uncle Scrooge"
(58 messages)
LadyQuackly
My First Reading of "The Life and Times of Uncle Scrooge"
Message 31 -
2008-08-06 at 23:30:36
Cacou
My First Reading of "The Life and Times of Uncle Scrooge"
Message 32 -
2008-08-07 at 14:41:03
Guys and ladies, it's true that nobody wrote here that a comic artist is racist (strickly speaking).
That said, my personal opinion on this matter, ie. saying Don Rosa uses "unappropriate" "racial" humor, is wrong, as was pointed out by several persons, and as such unfair to the man.
That said, my personal opinion on this matter, ie. saying Don Rosa uses "unappropriate" "racial" humor, is wrong, as was pointed out by several persons, and as such unfair to the man.
Roger North
My First Reading of "The Life and Times of Uncle Scrooge"
Message 33 -
2008-08-07 at 19:21:31
Quote from user: Lars JensenQuote from user: Roger NorthLars Don Rosa recently sent me an E-mail telling me that mvblair accused him of being racist when he drew Scrooge dressed as a black mammy in other words he drew him tied in a pigsack with bones in his top feathers. Of Course I don't think it's the case at all.
Thanks, Roger. I didn't realize Don Rosa had emailed you in private.
And now I notice that you actually hinted at it in another post. You wrote:
Quote from user: Roger NorthI asked Don Rosa about that Black Mammy Thing and he said I could channel him. He said that putting Scrooge in a pigskin sack and putting bones in his hair does not qualify dressing him up as a black mammy. Don Rosa doesn't have control over the coloring notes for the foreign publications so don't assume that he does. You may think Don Rosa is racist but he is not and I think he would be offended if he knew that you think he is. Mvblair I don't know if you know this or not but Don Rosa sometimes visits and he would not like you accusing of him of being racist. That black mammy theory is all in your head. You should be careful what you say about people in the future because you know who you're going to offend.
I thought maybe you'd met him at a signing. Was all this something Don wrote you in that email?
Yes it was but I'm not at liberty to tell people what Don Rosa tells me in his E-mail messages anymore.
Thanks, Roger. I didn't realize Don Rosa had emailed you in private.
And now I notice that you actually hinted at it in another post. You wrote:
Quote from user: Roger NorthI asked Don Rosa about that Black Mammy Thing and he said I could channel him. He said that putting Scrooge in a pigskin sack and putting bones in his hair does not qualify dressing him up as a black mammy. Don Rosa doesn't have control over the coloring notes for the foreign publications so don't assume that he does. You may think Don Rosa is racist but he is not and I think he would be offended if he knew that you think he is. Mvblair I don't know if you know this or not but Don Rosa sometimes visits and he would not like you accusing of him of being racist. That black mammy theory is all in your head. You should be careful what you say about people in the future because you know who you're going to offend.
I thought maybe you'd met him at a signing. Was all this something Don wrote you in that email?
Yes it was but I'm not at liberty to tell people what Don Rosa tells me in his E-mail messages anymore.
Lars Jensen
My First Reading of "The Life and Times of Uncle Scrooge"
Message 34 -
2008-08-07 at 20:56:02
Quote from user: Roger NorthYes it was but I'm not at liberty to tell people what Don Rosa tells me in his E-mail messages anymore.
Huh? Why not?
Huh? Why not?
Cacou
My First Reading of "The Life and Times of Uncle Scrooge"
Message 35 -
2008-08-08 at 08:06:26
Lars:
Because, I assume, this is private correspondance between Roger North and Don Rosa.
Because, I assume, this is private correspondance between Roger North and Don Rosa.
Roger North
My First Reading of "The Life and Times of Uncle Scrooge"
Message 36 -
2008-08-08 at 13:43:02
Thank you cacou. I would have said that myself but I didn't want to be rude.
Lars Jensen
My First Reading of "The Life and Times of Uncle Scrooge"
Message 37 -
2008-08-08 at 15:25:07
Quote from user: Roger NorthThank you cacou. I would have said that myself but I didn't want to be rude.
No problem, Roger. I'm not offended at all.
I just wonder why you think Don Rosa doesn't want you to quote from his emails when you wrote that
Quote from user: Roger NorthI asked Don Rosa about that Black Mammy Thing and he said I could channel him.
No problem, Roger. I'm not offended at all.
I just wonder why you think Don Rosa doesn't want you to quote from his emails when you wrote that
Quote from user: Roger NorthI asked Don Rosa about that Black Mammy Thing and he said I could channel him.
Roger North
My First Reading of "The Life and Times of Uncle Scrooge"
Message 38 -
2008-08-08 at 18:46:21
I have no comments on that end.
Mvblair
My First Reading of "The Life and Times of Uncle Scrooge"
Message 39 -
2008-08-09 at 01:11:54
Well, I didn't mean to create a stir. If anyone would like to comment on other aspects of my review, feel free. :D
Quote from user: ArgonautQuote from user: "mvblair"I think that's the term that David Pilgrim (from http://www.ferris.edu/jimcrow/menu.htm) uses for those types of images depicting Africans with bones in their hair.
I looked at all the stereotypes listed at the linked page, and didn't see this pygmy deal you're talking about. None of the images I did see even approached the pigskin scene either.
OK, http://www.ferris.edu/jimcrow/cartoons/pygmy.htm , this image seems to approach it.
Quote:No, the fact of the matter is that you're blowing a skewed perception of an offensive joke that doesn't exist into a really offensive accusation.
Well, at least we're in agreement that the joke was offensive. However, I'm not sure what "really offensive accusation" I've made is.
Quote:Quote:It's a type of humor that I thought was dead long before the '90s
Well it saw no resurrection here.
I think it did. Unless it was some kind of satire, the decision to print Scrooge dressed up in some kind of warped view of African dress was a mistake.
Quote:Why and how are people seeing this stuff in here? To reiterate what Mr. Gerstein said, do you really think it would have made it to publication if it was what you accuse it to be?
Just because something sees print doesn't mean it can never be offensive. We all know that the Disney and other cartoon-comic companies have been responsible for a lot of racist images in the past, so why would you be so surprised that there was another one?
Quote from user: ArgonautAlso, mvblair did say he felt the gag to be racist. I personally see blurred lines between calling a gag racist and calling the gag-maker racist.
I don't see blurred lines there. I said it before and I guess I'll reiterate it: I don't think Don Rosa is racist. I think he's a talented artist who made a mistake in this panel. He's an artist who greatly enjoys talking about his work, and that's what we're doing here. We're talking about his work, not him as a person.
Quote from user: morequackPersonally, the subject of racism is an ugly sore that has been raw for much too long. The more one calls attention to it and scratches it, the longer it will take to heal for those who feel the itch.
And I'm not referring to this discussion alone.
It's unfortunate that in this day and age in this country in particular that has been such a melting pot of cultures, races and religions?and such a nation of fantastic opportunities for ALL peoples willing to work and educate themselves?the subject of race continuous to bear such burdensome weight.
I agree with you 100%. That's why I just didn't like seeing that image.
To talk about the work in question:
Here's my question (to everyone): what was the point of drawing Scrooge dressed up in some kind of odd "African" garb replete with bones in his hair? Was it to show that this European duck had been savaged and humiliated? Was it to make a comment on African culture or history, as was the case in many panels in the book? Was it satire against cartoon racism in the past? Was it just an innocent, mock-making gag? Sincerely, I don't know. If Don Rosa is as versed in historic research as he says, why would he create a false-image of Africans that is based on past racist imagery?
Quote from user: ArgonautQuote from user: "mvblair"I think that's the term that David Pilgrim (from http://www.ferris.edu/jimcrow/menu.htm) uses for those types of images depicting Africans with bones in their hair.
I looked at all the stereotypes listed at the linked page, and didn't see this pygmy deal you're talking about. None of the images I did see even approached the pigskin scene either.
OK, http://www.ferris.edu/jimcrow/cartoons/pygmy.htm , this image seems to approach it.
Quote:No, the fact of the matter is that you're blowing a skewed perception of an offensive joke that doesn't exist into a really offensive accusation.
Well, at least we're in agreement that the joke was offensive. However, I'm not sure what "really offensive accusation" I've made is.
Quote:Quote:It's a type of humor that I thought was dead long before the '90s
Well it saw no resurrection here.
I think it did. Unless it was some kind of satire, the decision to print Scrooge dressed up in some kind of warped view of African dress was a mistake.
Quote:Why and how are people seeing this stuff in here? To reiterate what Mr. Gerstein said, do you really think it would have made it to publication if it was what you accuse it to be?
Just because something sees print doesn't mean it can never be offensive. We all know that the Disney and other cartoon-comic companies have been responsible for a lot of racist images in the past, so why would you be so surprised that there was another one?
Quote from user: ArgonautAlso, mvblair did say he felt the gag to be racist. I personally see blurred lines between calling a gag racist and calling the gag-maker racist.
I don't see blurred lines there. I said it before and I guess I'll reiterate it: I don't think Don Rosa is racist. I think he's a talented artist who made a mistake in this panel. He's an artist who greatly enjoys talking about his work, and that's what we're doing here. We're talking about his work, not him as a person.
Quote from user: morequackPersonally, the subject of racism is an ugly sore that has been raw for much too long. The more one calls attention to it and scratches it, the longer it will take to heal for those who feel the itch.
And I'm not referring to this discussion alone.
It's unfortunate that in this day and age in this country in particular that has been such a melting pot of cultures, races and religions?and such a nation of fantastic opportunities for ALL peoples willing to work and educate themselves?the subject of race continuous to bear such burdensome weight.
I agree with you 100%. That's why I just didn't like seeing that image.
To talk about the work in question:
Here's my question (to everyone): what was the point of drawing Scrooge dressed up in some kind of odd "African" garb replete with bones in his hair? Was it to show that this European duck had been savaged and humiliated? Was it to make a comment on African culture or history, as was the case in many panels in the book? Was it satire against cartoon racism in the past? Was it just an innocent, mock-making gag? Sincerely, I don't know. If Don Rosa is as versed in historic research as he says, why would he create a false-image of Africans that is based on past racist imagery?
Roger North
My First Reading of "The Life and Times of Uncle Scrooge"
Message 40 -
2008-08-09 at 02:07:40
Don't worry about it mvblair. It's okay as long as you don't do it again.
Ramapith
My First Reading of "The Life and Times of Uncle Scrooge"
Message 41 -
2008-08-09 at 02:28:48
Quote from user: mvblairWhat was the point of drawing Scrooge dressed up in some kind of odd "African" garb replete with bones in his hair? Was it to show that this European duck had been savaged and humiliated?
I see nothing worse than Scrooge being comically "messed up" with whatever implements the tribesmen had at hand?which in the case of voodoo, makes bones and facial paint no big surprise. Had the characters been Germans and the location a beer garden, Scrooge might have ended up with a wig of sauerkraut and a mustard mustache. And I vaguely recall a Rosa Klondike story in which a saloongoer had a pitcher rammed over his head, though I might be misremembering the details a bit.Quote:Was it just an innocent, mock-making gag?
I'd say so?emphatically.
Honestly, MVBlair, I understand that you were offended, but the situation is becoming oddly stark; by this point I've asked around, and I don't know a single other person, including two close African-American colleagues of mine (both of them longtime duck readers), who saw this scene as containing the imagery that you see in it.
If this means we're all in denial in your eyes, so be it; but to continue by rhetorically asking us, again and again, what the meaning of this imagery?the imagery we aren't seeing?could be, you're leaving us to imagine the worst, either about Rosa or ourselves, and being a bit harsh to all parties involved, I think.
Please understand; I see that you've gone out of your way to make clear that you don't think Don Rosa is a racist. But you still seem to be painting all of us, and perhaps him by extension, as at least unwittingly prejudiced for not... well, agreeing with you. Please excuse my own strong words... it's just that I'm a bit taken aback.
The Tex Avery image you linked to... now THAT'S unquestionably the result of racism. Same goes for lots of old cartoons in which a dynamite blast leaves a character in obvious, red-lipped blackface with thousands of bowtied pigtails.
For me, there's a world of difference between that and this Scrooge scene?which takes place, I should add, in a story that goes out of its way to bash colonialism and (implicit) racism.
I see nothing worse than Scrooge being comically "messed up" with whatever implements the tribesmen had at hand?which in the case of voodoo, makes bones and facial paint no big surprise. Had the characters been Germans and the location a beer garden, Scrooge might have ended up with a wig of sauerkraut and a mustard mustache. And I vaguely recall a Rosa Klondike story in which a saloongoer had a pitcher rammed over his head, though I might be misremembering the details a bit.Quote:Was it just an innocent, mock-making gag?
I'd say so?emphatically.
Honestly, MVBlair, I understand that you were offended, but the situation is becoming oddly stark; by this point I've asked around, and I don't know a single other person, including two close African-American colleagues of mine (both of them longtime duck readers), who saw this scene as containing the imagery that you see in it.
If this means we're all in denial in your eyes, so be it; but to continue by rhetorically asking us, again and again, what the meaning of this imagery?the imagery we aren't seeing?could be, you're leaving us to imagine the worst, either about Rosa or ourselves, and being a bit harsh to all parties involved, I think.
Please understand; I see that you've gone out of your way to make clear that you don't think Don Rosa is a racist. But you still seem to be painting all of us, and perhaps him by extension, as at least unwittingly prejudiced for not... well, agreeing with you. Please excuse my own strong words... it's just that I'm a bit taken aback.
The Tex Avery image you linked to... now THAT'S unquestionably the result of racism. Same goes for lots of old cartoons in which a dynamite blast leaves a character in obvious, red-lipped blackface with thousands of bowtied pigtails.
For me, there's a world of difference between that and this Scrooge scene?which takes place, I should add, in a story that goes out of its way to bash colonialism and (implicit) racism.
WB
My First Reading of "The Life and Times of Uncle Scrooge"
Message 42 -
2008-08-09 at 06:12:16
Hmmm...
You know. I should probably remember to actually have my stuff on hand and look before I open my mouth.
Ever since I replied in the Panchito thread by accident, this topic has been bothering me. So I went back, pulled out the trade and took a second look at the scene - and all the ones containing Foola Zoola as well since that was what I'd concentrated on in my reading.
Having took that second look, I feel that I need to immediately recant one my statements from earlier. While I still didn't see it as being racist at all, upon taking an even closer look at the scenes in question I don't really see anything wrong with it to begin with. If anything - from a historical standpoint (and this might be me talking out of my ass as I can't confirm it via real book research) - I think Don Rosa actually got Scrooge's "insult" right.
Now if you *WANTED* to you could imply that something is there. Anybody could, but really it's just an incredibly silly gag meant to utterly and completely humiliate Scrooge - and a harmless one at that.
The reason I am recanting while siding with the majority here is not over the "was it racist" argument, but because I'd made the off comment that maybe Don Rosa had got the imagery in question from the "picaninny" stereotype. But it turns out that I was horribly wrong about that - and gladly so because then mvblair really would have had something to complain about. To trace the scene in question and the reason why I say that Don Rosa actually got it right actually goes back to Foola Zoola and his original source material - voodoo. Now I've expressed my mild irritation previously at Carl Barks' original "Voodoo Hoodoo" story but this isn't the place for that. If you want something that really has racial humor at the expense of the story then that's where you need to concentrate your arguments on, but here, not so much.
Foola Zoola - for better or worse - is really the only distinctive "black" character in the duck and mouse world that most will think of if you think in terms of diversity. Sure - in the 80's, 90's, and 00's we've had dognose characters colored with black skin, but Foola is different. Furthermore, it doesn't help that he's a villain AND in the original story he was a "shark-toothed" monstrous looking subhuman type character. Don Rosa took a character that was probably one of Carl Barks's most sinister and equally over-the-top stereotypes of your typical Tarzan style jigaboo native (widely used back in Barks's younger days) and actually turned him into a seriously threatening and scary McDuck villain on par with - IMO The Phantom Blot. Think about it - we've only ever seen Foola Zoola in two stories - the original and here - but he's also the only villain that flat out seeks to kill Scrooge McDuck via the use of the silly Bombie - not for money, not for his dime, but just out of flat out vengeance for Scrooge wronging him and his people. He didn't even care that Donald had nothing to do with the incident in question in Barks's story. He poisoned a voodoo doll, set an eternally dead man on the duck, and would kill anybody related to McDuck if he had the chance.
Sure, Glomgold has (intentionally at one point) been flat out murderous at Scrooge and more often than not threatened him at gunpoint plenty of times but he's never had an out-and-out hard-on for wanting to kill his rival - just ruin him. If you really think about it - for only having appeared once or twice - Foola Zoola is one of the darkest characters in Disney comics next to several Gottfredson/Walsh villains.
Furthermore there's also his association with voodoo - one of the more darkly romanticized religions/cultures/whatever in fiction. So how does this all tie in to the racism complaints and how can I say that Rosa got it right you ask? Well, as I read it, there are three major factions of voodoo - haitian, american (louisiana), and west african. I did some wiki research on pigs and their representation to voodoo culture. This is what I found:
Quote:Creole pigs served as a type of savings account for the Haitian peasant: They were sold or slaughtered to pay for marriages, medical emergencies, schooling, seeds for crops, or a vodou ceremony. The resillience and boisterous nature of the pigs, as well as their incorporation into vodou folklore and the oral history of the Haitian revolution, made them a symbol for the independence and personality of the Haitian people.
So what does this mean? Foola Zoola and his tribe represent the West African branch of voodoo. Don Rosa touched upon the Hatian branch in "Lost Charts". While my example may come from the hatian branch, pigs are well implemented prior to slavery and black expansion in voodoo folklore. Now Foola Zoola's people see the pig as having personality and indepence, whereas in white society being called or associated with a pig is a borderline insult. You can very easily make the argument that Foola Zoola wrapped Scrooge up in a sacrificial pig skin and decked him out in body paint to not only insult Scrooge but show his independence from him by literally hoisting him on his own petard and shoving him off the doorstep as a sacrificial tart. It was pretty much the most elaborate and definative "thumbnose" gesture you can get. Scrooge meanwhile was so blinded by his anger, that he missed the point - and I think you might have also.
Both Scrooge and Foola are at fault. Not just one or the other. The point of the story was that Scrooge didn't care about Foola's people or thier well-being and as a result, he became a marked man of a crafty and vengeful witch doctor for the rest of his life. Foola meanwhile was so incensed by this uppity white man who destroyed his home that he went and rose a dead man, poisoned a voodoo doll, and - years later - tried to kill Scrooge's nephew to atone for a sin that should have been left to die years ago. Foola was the one who was most certainly wronged more, but two wrongs do not make a right and at the point where he didn't give a crap about Donald, it stopped being a revenge thing and started being full out hate.
So no - short answer, I do not see it as racism because, as a black man reading a story with a "black" character in a series in which there are practically no black characters, I chose to actually look it up and find out for myself before complaining if Don Rosa really stuck to his claim of "looking up something before he wrote it", and for my money (your money may differ and that's your perrogative) I think he did. And for all intents and purposes, I learned something intentional or not in the process.
Quote from user: ramapithThe Tex Avery image you linked to... now THAT'S unquestionably the result of racism. Same goes for lots of old cartoons in which a dynamite blast leaves a character in obvious, red-lipped blackface with thousands of bowtied pigtails.
For me, there's a world of difference between that and this Scrooge scene?which takes place, I should add, in a story that goes out of its way to bash colonialism and (implicit) racism.
Bingo. Again. If you want something to complain about, try and find a version of Voodoo Hoodoo in its unedited form before Foola and his tribe were given dognoses and the dialogue and parts of the artwork tweaked. It's not flat out terrible and believe me I am the last person to try and cry racism at every little thing but that is the one Barks story in which I honestly kind of came away dissapointed because, while any writer accidentally can slip into that trap, I often feel like blatant stereotypes for humor are a pretty cheap attempt whether they are a victim of being part of that time period or not. I laugh a lot harder at Speedy Gonzales and Mammy Two Shoes than I ever will Buckwheat and Al Jolson. =\
Quote:Don't worry about it mvblair. It's okay as long as you don't do it again.
... **facepalm**
Roger, everyone is free to voice his or her opinion even if its a dissenting one. That is the *POINT* of a debate. Furthermore, do you have to respond to every little thing with a single sentence that adds nothing to the discussion besides "I agree" or "you were right" or "thank you for telling us that" or just repeating what the last person said over and over? You haven't made a single post that doesn't do that or express a genuine opinion or outlook of your own that doesn't piggyback off of someone else in like, the past two or three weeks.
I'm not trying to be rude and maybe its just me getting easily agitated over absolutely nothing (if I am somebody please slap me on the back of my hand and I'll shut up), but it's kind of annoying. =\"
You know. I should probably remember to actually have my stuff on hand and look before I open my mouth.
Ever since I replied in the Panchito thread by accident, this topic has been bothering me. So I went back, pulled out the trade and took a second look at the scene - and all the ones containing Foola Zoola as well since that was what I'd concentrated on in my reading.
Having took that second look, I feel that I need to immediately recant one my statements from earlier. While I still didn't see it as being racist at all, upon taking an even closer look at the scenes in question I don't really see anything wrong with it to begin with. If anything - from a historical standpoint (and this might be me talking out of my ass as I can't confirm it via real book research) - I think Don Rosa actually got Scrooge's "insult" right.
Now if you *WANTED* to you could imply that something is there. Anybody could, but really it's just an incredibly silly gag meant to utterly and completely humiliate Scrooge - and a harmless one at that.
The reason I am recanting while siding with the majority here is not over the "was it racist" argument, but because I'd made the off comment that maybe Don Rosa had got the imagery in question from the "picaninny" stereotype. But it turns out that I was horribly wrong about that - and gladly so because then mvblair really would have had something to complain about. To trace the scene in question and the reason why I say that Don Rosa actually got it right actually goes back to Foola Zoola and his original source material - voodoo. Now I've expressed my mild irritation previously at Carl Barks' original "Voodoo Hoodoo" story but this isn't the place for that. If you want something that really has racial humor at the expense of the story then that's where you need to concentrate your arguments on, but here, not so much.
Foola Zoola - for better or worse - is really the only distinctive "black" character in the duck and mouse world that most will think of if you think in terms of diversity. Sure - in the 80's, 90's, and 00's we've had dognose characters colored with black skin, but Foola is different. Furthermore, it doesn't help that he's a villain AND in the original story he was a "shark-toothed" monstrous looking subhuman type character. Don Rosa took a character that was probably one of Carl Barks's most sinister and equally over-the-top stereotypes of your typical Tarzan style jigaboo native (widely used back in Barks's younger days) and actually turned him into a seriously threatening and scary McDuck villain on par with - IMO The Phantom Blot. Think about it - we've only ever seen Foola Zoola in two stories - the original and here - but he's also the only villain that flat out seeks to kill Scrooge McDuck via the use of the silly Bombie - not for money, not for his dime, but just out of flat out vengeance for Scrooge wronging him and his people. He didn't even care that Donald had nothing to do with the incident in question in Barks's story. He poisoned a voodoo doll, set an eternally dead man on the duck, and would kill anybody related to McDuck if he had the chance.
Sure, Glomgold has (intentionally at one point) been flat out murderous at Scrooge and more often than not threatened him at gunpoint plenty of times but he's never had an out-and-out hard-on for wanting to kill his rival - just ruin him. If you really think about it - for only having appeared once or twice - Foola Zoola is one of the darkest characters in Disney comics next to several Gottfredson/Walsh villains.
Furthermore there's also his association with voodoo - one of the more darkly romanticized religions/cultures/whatever in fiction. So how does this all tie in to the racism complaints and how can I say that Rosa got it right you ask? Well, as I read it, there are three major factions of voodoo - haitian, american (louisiana), and west african. I did some wiki research on pigs and their representation to voodoo culture. This is what I found:
Quote:Creole pigs served as a type of savings account for the Haitian peasant: They were sold or slaughtered to pay for marriages, medical emergencies, schooling, seeds for crops, or a vodou ceremony. The resillience and boisterous nature of the pigs, as well as their incorporation into vodou folklore and the oral history of the Haitian revolution, made them a symbol for the independence and personality of the Haitian people.
So what does this mean? Foola Zoola and his tribe represent the West African branch of voodoo. Don Rosa touched upon the Hatian branch in "Lost Charts". While my example may come from the hatian branch, pigs are well implemented prior to slavery and black expansion in voodoo folklore. Now Foola Zoola's people see the pig as having personality and indepence, whereas in white society being called or associated with a pig is a borderline insult. You can very easily make the argument that Foola Zoola wrapped Scrooge up in a sacrificial pig skin and decked him out in body paint to not only insult Scrooge but show his independence from him by literally hoisting him on his own petard and shoving him off the doorstep as a sacrificial tart. It was pretty much the most elaborate and definative "thumbnose" gesture you can get. Scrooge meanwhile was so blinded by his anger, that he missed the point - and I think you might have also.
Both Scrooge and Foola are at fault. Not just one or the other. The point of the story was that Scrooge didn't care about Foola's people or thier well-being and as a result, he became a marked man of a crafty and vengeful witch doctor for the rest of his life. Foola meanwhile was so incensed by this uppity white man who destroyed his home that he went and rose a dead man, poisoned a voodoo doll, and - years later - tried to kill Scrooge's nephew to atone for a sin that should have been left to die years ago. Foola was the one who was most certainly wronged more, but two wrongs do not make a right and at the point where he didn't give a crap about Donald, it stopped being a revenge thing and started being full out hate.
So no - short answer, I do not see it as racism because, as a black man reading a story with a "black" character in a series in which there are practically no black characters, I chose to actually look it up and find out for myself before complaining if Don Rosa really stuck to his claim of "looking up something before he wrote it", and for my money (your money may differ and that's your perrogative) I think he did. And for all intents and purposes, I learned something intentional or not in the process.
Quote from user: ramapithThe Tex Avery image you linked to... now THAT'S unquestionably the result of racism. Same goes for lots of old cartoons in which a dynamite blast leaves a character in obvious, red-lipped blackface with thousands of bowtied pigtails.
For me, there's a world of difference between that and this Scrooge scene?which takes place, I should add, in a story that goes out of its way to bash colonialism and (implicit) racism.
Bingo. Again. If you want something to complain about, try and find a version of Voodoo Hoodoo in its unedited form before Foola and his tribe were given dognoses and the dialogue and parts of the artwork tweaked. It's not flat out terrible and believe me I am the last person to try and cry racism at every little thing but that is the one Barks story in which I honestly kind of came away dissapointed because, while any writer accidentally can slip into that trap, I often feel like blatant stereotypes for humor are a pretty cheap attempt whether they are a victim of being part of that time period or not. I laugh a lot harder at Speedy Gonzales and Mammy Two Shoes than I ever will Buckwheat and Al Jolson. =\
Quote:Don't worry about it mvblair. It's okay as long as you don't do it again.
... **facepalm**
Roger, everyone is free to voice his or her opinion even if its a dissenting one. That is the *POINT* of a debate. Furthermore, do you have to respond to every little thing with a single sentence that adds nothing to the discussion besides "I agree" or "you were right" or "thank you for telling us that" or just repeating what the last person said over and over? You haven't made a single post that doesn't do that or express a genuine opinion or outlook of your own that doesn't piggyback off of someone else in like, the past two or three weeks.
I'm not trying to be rude and maybe its just me getting easily agitated over absolutely nothing (if I am somebody please slap me on the back of my hand and I'll shut up), but it's kind of annoying. =\"
Argonaut
My First Reading of "The Life and Times of Uncle Scrooge"
Message 43 -
2008-08-09 at 06:46:18
Quote from user: mvblairWell, at least we're in agreement that the joke was offensive. However, I'm not sure what "really offensive accusation" I've made is.
Um, no, we are not in any kind of agreement. I was stating You are somehow seeing/perceiving an offensive joke that simply isn't there.
The offensive accusation you've made is to claim that Don Rosa has employed a racial/ethnic slur for a gag. No such thing has happened, despite your determination to see it, and to state/imply that Don would do such a thing is offensive to me, to him, and his editors/publishers.
You may not have said "Don Rosa is a racist!", but you assault his character and work none the less.
Now, I don't want to come across as one of his more zealous fans (although to some, just being a Rosa fan seems to earn you a zealous label), but I do feel a need to step up and defend the man's work against such an absurd and unfounded insinuation.
Um, no, we are not in any kind of agreement. I was stating You are somehow seeing/perceiving an offensive joke that simply isn't there.
The offensive accusation you've made is to claim that Don Rosa has employed a racial/ethnic slur for a gag. No such thing has happened, despite your determination to see it, and to state/imply that Don would do such a thing is offensive to me, to him, and his editors/publishers.
You may not have said "Don Rosa is a racist!", but you assault his character and work none the less.
Now, I don't want to come across as one of his more zealous fans (although to some, just being a Rosa fan seems to earn you a zealous label), but I do feel a need to step up and defend the man's work against such an absurd and unfounded insinuation.
Lars Jensen
My First Reading of "The Life and Times of Uncle Scrooge"
Message 44 -
2008-08-09 at 08:25:49
I posted:
Quote from user: Lars JensenI just wonder why you think Don Rosa doesn't want you to quote from his emails when you wrote that
Quote from user: Roger NorthI asked Don Rosa about that Black Mammy Thing and he said I could channel him.
And Roger replied:
Quote from user: Roger NorthI have no comments on that end.
It's OK, Roger. I didn't mean to put you in a tough spot. Besides, I think I've figured out what's going on here.
Quote from user: Lars JensenI just wonder why you think Don Rosa doesn't want you to quote from his emails when you wrote that
Quote from user: Roger NorthI asked Don Rosa about that Black Mammy Thing and he said I could channel him.
And Roger replied:
Quote from user: Roger NorthI have no comments on that end.
It's OK, Roger. I didn't mean to put you in a tough spot. Besides, I think I've figured out what's going on here.
Lars Jensen
My First Reading of "The Life and Times of Uncle Scrooge"
Message 45 -
2008-08-09 at 09:23:11
Quote from user: ramapithIf this means we're all in denial in your eyes, so be it; but to continue by rhetorically asking us, again and again, what the meaning of this imagery?the imagery we aren't seeing?could be, you're leaving us to imagine the worst, either about Rosa or ourselves, and being a bit harsh to all parties involved, I think.
Please understand; I see that you've gone out of your way to make clear that you don't think Don Rosa is a racist. But you still seem to be painting all of us, and perhaps him by extension, as at least unwittingly prejudiced for not... well, agreeing with you. Please excuse my own strong words... it's just that I'm a bit taken aback.
I don't feel mvblair is painting me as a racist. And I don't think he's leaving me to imagine the worst about Don Rosa or myself either. In fact, I don't even see him being harsh.
mvblair has made it very clear that he doesn't think Don Rosa is a racist. That statement alone means that he is *not* leaving us to imagine that Rosa is a racist. And since we don't imagine that thanks to his statement, the fact that we don't imagine it doesn't imply that we are racists either. Which of course then means that he isn't being harsh. On anyone.
A few other things:
[quote=ramapith]If this means we're all in denial in your eyes, so be it
Where did he state this?
[quote=ramapith]to continue by rhetorically asking us, again and again, what the meaning of this imagery
I can't speak for mvblair, obviously, but I think he's repeating this because people continue to state that he has accused Don Rosa of being a racist. Which he didn't. He instead pointed out that he found one specific gag racist. Some posters (and one non-poster) see that as the same thing, others (mvblair) don't.
I really don't understand why people are getting so upset about this. Don Rosa made a gag which most posters in this thread didn't find racist, but which mvblair did. (And I'm sorry, David, but the fact that two African-American colleagues of yours don't see a problem doesn't mean that mvblair shouldn't have one either.) mvblair stated that he found the gag racist and offensive, but that he didn't believe Don Rosa himself is racist.
And that's that. Clearly posters here perceive the same gag in different ways. Not because they are out and out racists or jerks, but because that is simply how they perceive that gag. Are ramapith & co. not sensitive enough? Not according to mvblair him/herself. So does that make mvblair too sensitive?
Really, let's drop this topic. We're getting nowhere.
Please understand; I see that you've gone out of your way to make clear that you don't think Don Rosa is a racist. But you still seem to be painting all of us, and perhaps him by extension, as at least unwittingly prejudiced for not... well, agreeing with you. Please excuse my own strong words... it's just that I'm a bit taken aback.
I don't feel mvblair is painting me as a racist. And I don't think he's leaving me to imagine the worst about Don Rosa or myself either. In fact, I don't even see him being harsh.
mvblair has made it very clear that he doesn't think Don Rosa is a racist. That statement alone means that he is *not* leaving us to imagine that Rosa is a racist. And since we don't imagine that thanks to his statement, the fact that we don't imagine it doesn't imply that we are racists either. Which of course then means that he isn't being harsh. On anyone.
A few other things:
[quote=ramapith]If this means we're all in denial in your eyes, so be it
Where did he state this?
[quote=ramapith]to continue by rhetorically asking us, again and again, what the meaning of this imagery
I can't speak for mvblair, obviously, but I think he's repeating this because people continue to state that he has accused Don Rosa of being a racist. Which he didn't. He instead pointed out that he found one specific gag racist. Some posters (and one non-poster) see that as the same thing, others (mvblair) don't.
I really don't understand why people are getting so upset about this. Don Rosa made a gag which most posters in this thread didn't find racist, but which mvblair did. (And I'm sorry, David, but the fact that two African-American colleagues of yours don't see a problem doesn't mean that mvblair shouldn't have one either.) mvblair stated that he found the gag racist and offensive, but that he didn't believe Don Rosa himself is racist.
And that's that. Clearly posters here perceive the same gag in different ways. Not because they are out and out racists or jerks, but because that is simply how they perceive that gag. Are ramapith & co. not sensitive enough? Not according to mvblair him/herself. So does that make mvblair too sensitive?
Really, let's drop this topic. We're getting nowhere.