Quote from user: GeoXQuote from user: Lars JensenThey are freely available. Just go into any comic book shop (or wherever those things used to be sold in the US) and rummage through their stacks of old Disney comics. Or go onto eBay.
Okay. But even if you somehow COULD obtain a complete collection this way (very doubtful indeed), doing so would benefit creators and publishers...how, exactly?
You're confusing one thing for the other. You wished that important literary artifacts would be freely available, and I told you those old comic book stories already were... and in which way they were. Buying an old issue of Moby Duck on eBay has nothing to do with how piracy affects creators and publishers. And I never claimed it had.
Author
Topic: The Orb Saga has been uploaded
(49 messages)
Lars Jensen
The Orb Saga has been uploaded
Message 16 -
2010-09-01 at 22:14:01
GeoX
The Orb Saga has been uploaded
Message 17 -
2010-09-01 at 22:20:59
Quote from user: Lars JensenBuying an old issue of Moby Duck on eBay has nothing to do with how piracy affects creators and publishers.
Okay, so what does downloading an old issue of Moby Duck from rapidshare have to do with how piracy affects creators and publishers? What exactly is this argument about?
Okay, so what does downloading an old issue of Moby Duck from rapidshare have to do with how piracy affects creators and publishers? What exactly is this argument about?
Lars Jensen
The Orb Saga has been uploaded
Message 18 -
2010-09-01 at 22:33:52
Quote from user: GeoXOkay, so what does downloading an old issue of Moby Duck from rapidshare have to do with how piracy affects creators and publishers? What exactly is this argument about?
Read previous posts in this thread.
Read previous posts in this thread.
GeoX
The Orb Saga has been uploaded
Message 19 -
2010-09-01 at 23:38:10
Okay, so let me summarize the debate so far, as I see it.
Me: I like the fact that old, otherwise-unavailable comics can be easily read online.
You: They're ALREADY available, via second-hand shops and the like; thus, there's no justification for putting them online.
Me: But buying them secondhand does nothing for publishers or creators, so what's the effective difference between that and reading them online?
You: Buying old comics secondhand has nothing to do with piracy.
Me: So what makes doing that better than downloading them?
You: [decline to state]
I completely agree that pirating new comics is just plain dickish behavior that should not be condoned--and if you want to start a street gang devoted to punching people who do that in the face, I will seriously consider joining--but the used/old comics market is a completely different thing, since nobody except secondhand dealers is profiting anyway. My Terrible Confession: I don't actually own a copy of The Flying Horse. I downloaded it from the internet. Yes, it's true! I could have gone on ebay and paid however-much to own my very own copy of a terrible, terrible story, but I did not do so. Yes, this must technically have been illegal, but there is no conceivable way that Disney or anyone involved in the story's creation would have profited from me buying a used copy, so I can't say I feel like I have committed a grievous sin.
But forget about old, obscure comics that no one cares about; those are rather beside the point. Take a modern story. Take Rosa's "Quest for Kalevala." If someone wants to read that story in English--right now, in 2010--should they be able to read it for free online? No, you would say: they should find a copy of US334, which wouldn't even be very expensive. Okay, but Gemstone is dead and buried, so what's the matter with just downloading it? Rosa wouldn't profit from you buying it (not that he would ANYWAY, given the way Disney exploits creators--correct me if I'm wrong), and neither would a dead publisher.
Well, you might counter, reading the story online would very possibly discourage people from buying a hypothetical future reprint. Okay, granted. But so might already owning a copy, don't you think? I probably would've shelled out for Boom!'s version of the L&T, but I didn't, due to already owning Gemstone's edition. Frankly, it seems a lot more likely to me that someone who's only read it online would jump at the chance to own it than that someone who already owns it would jump at the chance to own it again. So one could argue, fairly convincingly, that the used-market is at least as bad for publishers in that regard as piracy is.
Look, things like XXX's site are definitely illegal; there's no doubt about that. Disney would have every right to clamp down on them. But I just can't get worked up about them, because, for the aforementioned reasons, I simply don't believe that they're hurting anyone to any statistically meaningful degree, any more than I believe that downloading a ROM image of Super Mario Bros is hurting Nintendo.
Me: I like the fact that old, otherwise-unavailable comics can be easily read online.
You: They're ALREADY available, via second-hand shops and the like; thus, there's no justification for putting them online.
Me: But buying them secondhand does nothing for publishers or creators, so what's the effective difference between that and reading them online?
You: Buying old comics secondhand has nothing to do with piracy.
Me: So what makes doing that better than downloading them?
You: [decline to state]
I completely agree that pirating new comics is just plain dickish behavior that should not be condoned--and if you want to start a street gang devoted to punching people who do that in the face, I will seriously consider joining--but the used/old comics market is a completely different thing, since nobody except secondhand dealers is profiting anyway. My Terrible Confession: I don't actually own a copy of The Flying Horse. I downloaded it from the internet. Yes, it's true! I could have gone on ebay and paid however-much to own my very own copy of a terrible, terrible story, but I did not do so. Yes, this must technically have been illegal, but there is no conceivable way that Disney or anyone involved in the story's creation would have profited from me buying a used copy, so I can't say I feel like I have committed a grievous sin.
But forget about old, obscure comics that no one cares about; those are rather beside the point. Take a modern story. Take Rosa's "Quest for Kalevala." If someone wants to read that story in English--right now, in 2010--should they be able to read it for free online? No, you would say: they should find a copy of US334, which wouldn't even be very expensive. Okay, but Gemstone is dead and buried, so what's the matter with just downloading it? Rosa wouldn't profit from you buying it (not that he would ANYWAY, given the way Disney exploits creators--correct me if I'm wrong), and neither would a dead publisher.
Well, you might counter, reading the story online would very possibly discourage people from buying a hypothetical future reprint. Okay, granted. But so might already owning a copy, don't you think? I probably would've shelled out for Boom!'s version of the L&T, but I didn't, due to already owning Gemstone's edition. Frankly, it seems a lot more likely to me that someone who's only read it online would jump at the chance to own it than that someone who already owns it would jump at the chance to own it again. So one could argue, fairly convincingly, that the used-market is at least as bad for publishers in that regard as piracy is.
Look, things like XXX's site are definitely illegal; there's no doubt about that. Disney would have every right to clamp down on them. But I just can't get worked up about them, because, for the aforementioned reasons, I simply don't believe that they're hurting anyone to any statistically meaningful degree, any more than I believe that downloading a ROM image of Super Mario Bros is hurting Nintendo.
Roger North
The Orb Saga has been uploaded
Message 20 -
2010-09-02 at 03:29:42
For those agree with me thanks. For those that don't well that's your opinion. I wouldn't have started this thread if I knew this was going to be a problem. It's like when I told Don Rosa about that Donald Duck Comics Website. If you can prove it's illegal then maybe I won't visit that website anymore. However if they stop making Disney Comics I think it's mainly because not enough people like them. That's the most popular theory in my opinion. I hear a lot of people saying how choppy Disney Comics have become. I'm probably one of the few who doesn't think they're choppy. For we all know XXX could uploaded copies of his/her comic books and as far I don't think He/She will be using them for profit. I think they are up there for Entertainment Purposes only. If it was for profit only then is it illegal because it is illegal to make money of copyrighted material but if there's no money involved then there is no harm.
Robb_K
The Orb Saga has been uploaded
Message 21 -
2010-09-02 at 03:47:04
Quote from user: Roger NorthFor we all know XXX could uploaded copies of his/her comic books and as far I don't think He/She will be using them for profit. I think they are up there for Entertainment Purposes only. If it was for profit only then is it illegal because it is illegal to make money of copyrighted material but if there's no money involved then there is no harm.
Even if he is not making a profit, he is making something available to the public for free, that several firms have paid money for the rights to sell. He is stealing sales from those companies. If he were to start uploading current or recent stories, he will be hurting sales of Disney comic books. If that were to go on long, Disney franchises would not be able to sell their product enough to make a profit, and would stop selling it. Then artists and writers (myself included) would have a harder time getting stories to draw, or selling written stories.
Even uploading very old stories for free probably hurts sales of special book series. XXX has uploaded virtually ALL the Carl Barks Disney stories. I am POSITIVE that will cut down the number of people who will buy an English Carl Barks Collection. I would guess that he has uploaded enough Rosa stories to hurt sales of Rosa collections. Maybe if he hadn't done that, there would be enough customers for an English "Carl Barks Collection", but without them, it's possible we'll NEVER see one. Think about that!
At this point there is no English colour version and no Dutch colour version. I have access only to a German set. I don't enjoy reading the German language. We have only black and white versions in those languages, and they are missing some things that are in the Scandinavian and the German "Carl Barks Collection". People like XXX and those who direct people to their sites hurt ALL of US in the long run. The same is true for people uploading other people's music on The Internet for free, when the owner is trying to make a living from selling it.
Even if he is not making a profit, he is making something available to the public for free, that several firms have paid money for the rights to sell. He is stealing sales from those companies. If he were to start uploading current or recent stories, he will be hurting sales of Disney comic books. If that were to go on long, Disney franchises would not be able to sell their product enough to make a profit, and would stop selling it. Then artists and writers (myself included) would have a harder time getting stories to draw, or selling written stories.
Even uploading very old stories for free probably hurts sales of special book series. XXX has uploaded virtually ALL the Carl Barks Disney stories. I am POSITIVE that will cut down the number of people who will buy an English Carl Barks Collection. I would guess that he has uploaded enough Rosa stories to hurt sales of Rosa collections. Maybe if he hadn't done that, there would be enough customers for an English "Carl Barks Collection", but without them, it's possible we'll NEVER see one. Think about that!
At this point there is no English colour version and no Dutch colour version. I have access only to a German set. I don't enjoy reading the German language. We have only black and white versions in those languages, and they are missing some things that are in the Scandinavian and the German "Carl Barks Collection". People like XXX and those who direct people to their sites hurt ALL of US in the long run. The same is true for people uploading other people's music on The Internet for free, when the owner is trying to make a living from selling it.
GeoX
The Orb Saga has been uploaded
Message 22 -
2010-09-02 at 03:56:08
I'm pretty sure that no one sufficiently committed to buy a doubtless-very-expensive Barks collection is going to be put off by "oh, I can read them FREE online instead!" And I'm POSITIVE that it's simply ludicrous to blame XXX, personally, for the lack of Barks/Rosa collections. Gemstone WAS going to release one had they not died, so I can only assume that you imagine Boom! executives throwing their hands in the air and going "Crud! We were going to release a big, lavish collection for fans, but now that the comics are on THE INTERNET, all is lost! Guess we'll have to just keep releasing terrible Ultraheroes comics instead!" Yuh.
Seriously, legitimate concerns about piracy are not going to be taken seriously if you resort to hysterical hyperbole.
Seriously, legitimate concerns about piracy are not going to be taken seriously if you resort to hysterical hyperbole.
Cacou
The Orb Saga has been uploaded
Message 23 -
2010-09-02 at 07:02:02
XXX is not a thief. Posting Disney comics online is not stealing, it's called counterfeiting. This is punished by harsh sentences (up to 1 million $ for downloading a dozen of songs, and even more), so Lars, you see, the law is on your side.
FYI, I removed the site's name from all the posts above, just to make sure this forum can't be accused of providing "links" to the offending site. So please don't use the site's name in your posts (thank you!).
FYI, I removed the site's name from all the posts above, just to make sure this forum can't be accused of providing "links" to the offending site. So please don't use the site's name in your posts (thank you!).
Lars Jensen
The Orb Saga has been uploaded
Message 24 -
2010-09-02 at 10:38:23
Quote from user: GeoXI completely agree that pirating new comics is just plain dickish behavior that should not be condoned--and if you want to start a street gang devoted to punching people who do that in the face, I will seriously consider joining--but the used/old comics market is a completely different thing, since nobody except secondhand dealers is profiting anyway.
I don't intend to punch anyone in the face, but thanks for the offer.
Look, pirating a Moby Duck comic book of course isn't going to put BOOM! or anyone else out of business. I was trying to by (slightly) funny, but obviously failed. But pirating stories that do have a "reprint value" (for lack of a better phrase) is a problem. I'm not interesting in reading Don Rosa's articles, so if BOOM! ever decided to publish a Don Rosa Library I wouldn't buy it. Not when I can read the stories for free at XXX's site.
Quote from user: GeoXBut forget about old, obscure comics that no one cares about; those are rather beside the point. Take a modern story. Take Rosa's "Quest for Kalevala." If someone wants to read that story in English--right now, in 2010--should they be able to read it for free online? No, you would say: they should find a copy of US334, which wouldn't even be very expensive. Okay, but Gemstone is dead and buried, so what's the matter with just downloading it? Rosa wouldn't profit from you buying it (not that he would ANYWAY, given the way Disney exploits creators--correct me if I'm wrong), and neither would a dead publisher.
"Exploits"?! "Disney"?! Are you referring to the few things (one story?) Don wrote for the Disney Comics imprint? Because the rest of his Duck comic book stories have been written for publishers with Disney licenses. (And of course I won't comment on Don Rosa's financial arrangements. I can state, however, that I don't feel financially exploited by Egmont.)
And the problem by downloading an illegal copy of that story would be that you didn't pay for it.
Quote from user: GeoXWell, you might counter, reading the story online would very possibly discourage people from buying a hypothetical future reprint. Okay, granted. But so might already owning a copy, don't you think?
You mean: having already paid for a copy? Uh, you don't seem to understand: the problem of pirating is that people don't get paid the money they should get paid. By reading illegal scans you haven't paid that money. By buying a copy you have.
Really, if I have to explain that sort of thing I'm gonna drop out of the discussion. This is getting too junior college for me.
I don't intend to punch anyone in the face, but thanks for the offer.
Look, pirating a Moby Duck comic book of course isn't going to put BOOM! or anyone else out of business. I was trying to by (slightly) funny, but obviously failed. But pirating stories that do have a "reprint value" (for lack of a better phrase) is a problem. I'm not interesting in reading Don Rosa's articles, so if BOOM! ever decided to publish a Don Rosa Library I wouldn't buy it. Not when I can read the stories for free at XXX's site.
Quote from user: GeoXBut forget about old, obscure comics that no one cares about; those are rather beside the point. Take a modern story. Take Rosa's "Quest for Kalevala." If someone wants to read that story in English--right now, in 2010--should they be able to read it for free online? No, you would say: they should find a copy of US334, which wouldn't even be very expensive. Okay, but Gemstone is dead and buried, so what's the matter with just downloading it? Rosa wouldn't profit from you buying it (not that he would ANYWAY, given the way Disney exploits creators--correct me if I'm wrong), and neither would a dead publisher.
"Exploits"?! "Disney"?! Are you referring to the few things (one story?) Don wrote for the Disney Comics imprint? Because the rest of his Duck comic book stories have been written for publishers with Disney licenses. (And of course I won't comment on Don Rosa's financial arrangements. I can state, however, that I don't feel financially exploited by Egmont.)
And the problem by downloading an illegal copy of that story would be that you didn't pay for it.
Quote from user: GeoXWell, you might counter, reading the story online would very possibly discourage people from buying a hypothetical future reprint. Okay, granted. But so might already owning a copy, don't you think?
You mean: having already paid for a copy? Uh, you don't seem to understand: the problem of pirating is that people don't get paid the money they should get paid. By reading illegal scans you haven't paid that money. By buying a copy you have.
Really, if I have to explain that sort of thing I'm gonna drop out of the discussion. This is getting too junior college for me.
Lars Jensen
The Orb Saga has been uploaded
Message 25 -
2010-09-02 at 10:42:46
Quote from user: GeoXSeriously, legitimate concerns about piracy are not going to be taken seriously if you resort to hysterical hyperbole.
And now we're resorting to personal attacks. Awesome. That just confirms I should drop out of this thread.
And now we're resorting to personal attacks. Awesome. That just confirms I should drop out of this thread.
Roger North
The Orb Saga has been uploaded
Message 26 -
2010-09-02 at 11:31:12
Technically I didn't really download the story I just read it on the website so you can't say that I downloaded it. Reading these stories is not a crime. Maybe it is illegal for XXX to have uploaded the comic book stories online but if it was don't you think he would have been arrested if the People at Gemstone found out what he was doing? I think if it was illegal the People at Gemstone would pressed charges against XXX and the website wouldn't exist anymore and we would not be having this conversation.
Dia-Dia
The Orb Saga has been uploaded
Message 27 -
2010-09-02 at 12:02:11
What's illegal in a country may be legal in another so you can't just send the police from here to there.
Kneon
The Orb Saga has been uploaded
Message 28 -
2010-09-02 at 12:18:05
Now, ironically, here's the other side of all this...
http://www.geekosystem.com/2010-harvey-award-winners/
http://www.pvponline.com/2010/08/30/mark-waid-is-right/
By Boom's Mark Waid, no less.
He IS right. In regards to scans and downloads and such, the genie is out of the bottle, and it's not going back in...
http://www.geekosystem.com/2010-harvey-award-winners/
http://www.pvponline.com/2010/08/30/mark-waid-is-right/
By Boom's Mark Waid, no less.
He IS right. In regards to scans and downloads and such, the genie is out of the bottle, and it's not going back in...
Mcduck_Enterprises
The Orb Saga has been uploaded
Message 29 -
2010-09-02 at 12:24:10
Quote from user: Lars JensenAre you in all seriousness asking me whether I have proof "XXX" hasn't bought a Disney license?!?
Don't bother replying.
I was just inquiring because such an accusation of theft in print is libel without documentation - and since the mod replaced the person's name, it's all good. However, the response was a bit over-enthusiastic and negative. I just challenged a statement with a question. In real life, you answer to the best of your knowledge or be quiet.
Don't bother replying.
I was just inquiring because such an accusation of theft in print is libel without documentation - and since the mod replaced the person's name, it's all good. However, the response was a bit over-enthusiastic and negative. I just challenged a statement with a question. In real life, you answer to the best of your knowledge or be quiet.
Rodney
The Orb Saga has been uploaded
Message 30 -
2010-09-02 at 13:09:37
The musicians that I know are just happy that people want to hear their music. If something is downloaded, they figure that maybe the people will come to a concert and actually spend money that the band gets to have.