Author
Topic: The Orb Saga has been uploaded
(49 messages)
Mcduck_Enterprises
The Orb Saga has been uploaded
Message 31 -
2010-09-02 at 13:24:02
Lars Ulrich is definately not in that circle of musicians then.......Boy, that's digging up 2000. :)
Cacou
The Orb Saga has been uploaded
Message 32 -
2010-09-02 at 14:42:56
Quote from user: Roger NorthTechnically I didn't really download the story I just read it on the website so you can't say that I downloaded it. Reading these stories is not a crime. Maybe it is illegal for XXX to have uploaded the comic book stories online but if it was don't you think he would have been arrested if the People at Gemstone found out what he was doing? I think if it was illegal the People at Gemstone would pressed charges against XXX and the website wouldn't exist anymore and we would not be having this conversation.
When you read comics online, you make a copy of it on your computer (on the RAM memory or on hard disk).
Counterfeiting is exactly that, unauthorized copying or representation of a copyrighted work. (Representation would apply if you play a theater drama without the authors' agreement). That's why most youtube videos are illegally uploaded. However the act of copying is legal when you make private copies (for your own use) of something that you legally obtained - so recording a movie in a theater is legal here.
However, in France, it's illegal to publish a photograph of the Eiffel Tower at night (because the Eiffel Tower's lights are a copyrighted piece of art), or of your own house, if the architect died less than 70 years ago.
To stay on topic, if I was taking decisions at Disney, I would make up a website for downloading any comic they ever made in many language at an affordable price. Without any "digital rights" scheme, so as to allow their customer to copy comics on any medium they wish. I think this would be successful, and that there would still be customers for printed comics. Maybe Disney Italia or some other Disney companies are going in that direction, but it does not look as appealing as I would like it. For now I still prefer printed comics.
When you read comics online, you make a copy of it on your computer (on the RAM memory or on hard disk).
Counterfeiting is exactly that, unauthorized copying or representation of a copyrighted work. (Representation would apply if you play a theater drama without the authors' agreement). That's why most youtube videos are illegally uploaded. However the act of copying is legal when you make private copies (for your own use) of something that you legally obtained - so recording a movie in a theater is legal here.
However, in France, it's illegal to publish a photograph of the Eiffel Tower at night (because the Eiffel Tower's lights are a copyrighted piece of art), or of your own house, if the architect died less than 70 years ago.
To stay on topic, if I was taking decisions at Disney, I would make up a website for downloading any comic they ever made in many language at an affordable price. Without any "digital rights" scheme, so as to allow their customer to copy comics on any medium they wish. I think this would be successful, and that there would still be customers for printed comics. Maybe Disney Italia or some other Disney companies are going in that direction, but it does not look as appealing as I would like it. For now I still prefer printed comics.
GeoX
The Orb Saga has been uploaded
Message 33 -
2010-09-02 at 15:56:42
Quote from user: Lars JensenI'm not interesting in reading Don Rosa's articles, so if BOOM! ever decided to publish a Don Rosa Library I wouldn't buy it. Not when I can read the stories for free at XXX's site.
Well then, it looks like you're part of the problem, doesn't it?
Quote from user: Lars JensenYou mean: having already paid for a copy? Uh, you don't seem to understand: the problem of pirating is that people don't get paid the money they should get paid. By reading illegal scans you haven't paid that money. By buying a copy you have.
And once again, you refuse to answer the question: how are the people who "should get paid" making any money by you buying a used copy? The answer is: they aren't. Unless by "the people who should get paid" you're just referring to secondhand dealers, in which case I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree that they have some kind of intrinsic "right" to sell used comics. Certainly, nobody involved in the creation or publication of the stories is getting paid, which I kinda thought was the whole point.
Quote from user: Lars JensenAnd now we're resorting to personal attacks.
Oh, give it a rest. That was not a "personal attack." "Your stories suck and they shouldn't be published" is a personal attack.*
But IT'S ALL XXX'S FAULT THAT WE'LL NEVER GET A BARKS COLLECTION cannot be taken seriously, because it's not a serious argument.
*NB: Not meant as an actual attack; I've never read anything by RobbK, and those few Jensen stories I've read I remember thinking were okay.
Well then, it looks like you're part of the problem, doesn't it?
Quote from user: Lars JensenYou mean: having already paid for a copy? Uh, you don't seem to understand: the problem of pirating is that people don't get paid the money they should get paid. By reading illegal scans you haven't paid that money. By buying a copy you have.
And once again, you refuse to answer the question: how are the people who "should get paid" making any money by you buying a used copy? The answer is: they aren't. Unless by "the people who should get paid" you're just referring to secondhand dealers, in which case I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree that they have some kind of intrinsic "right" to sell used comics. Certainly, nobody involved in the creation or publication of the stories is getting paid, which I kinda thought was the whole point.
Quote from user: Lars JensenAnd now we're resorting to personal attacks.
Oh, give it a rest. That was not a "personal attack." "Your stories suck and they shouldn't be published" is a personal attack.*
But IT'S ALL XXX'S FAULT THAT WE'LL NEVER GET A BARKS COLLECTION cannot be taken seriously, because it's not a serious argument.
*NB: Not meant as an actual attack; I've never read anything by RobbK, and those few Jensen stories I've read I remember thinking were okay.
GeoX
The Orb Saga has been uploaded
Message 34 -
2010-09-02 at 16:03:55
Quote from user: cacouHowever, in France, it's illegal to publish a photograph of the Eiffel Tower at night (because the Eiffel Tower's lights are a copyrighted piece of art), or of your own house, if the architect died less than 70 years ago.
Is that true? That's crazy.
(All I can think of here is XXX laboring meticulously over molds to perfectly recreate Disney comics, after the manner of Willem Dafoe in To Live and Die in LA)
Is that true? That's crazy.
(All I can think of here is XXX laboring meticulously over molds to perfectly recreate Disney comics, after the manner of Willem Dafoe in To Live and Die in LA)
GeoX
The Orb Saga has been uploaded
Message 35 -
2010-09-02 at 18:21:22
...but ultimately, all this is irrelevant. Mark Waid (in Kneon's links) is quite right. Good luck unringing that bell.
Sim
The Orb Saga has been uploaded
Message 36 -
2010-09-02 at 18:34:02
Quote from user: Lars JensenAnd XXX is a thief.
I've never thought about and probably you're right...
I'm a Disney Comics collector and I like to have paper comics more than virtual ones.
I have almost all Barks' works, good part of Rosa's one and a lot of Scarpa's.
However, I've used, I use and I'll use that site just to remember quickly details from that stories.
Maybe XXX's a thief and he's not any license, but he helps collectors as me to not waste time searching in our great collections.
- Walt Zuti
I've never thought about and probably you're right...
I'm a Disney Comics collector and I like to have paper comics more than virtual ones.
I have almost all Barks' works, good part of Rosa's one and a lot of Scarpa's.
However, I've used, I use and I'll use that site just to remember quickly details from that stories.
Maybe XXX's a thief and he's not any license, but he helps collectors as me to not waste time searching in our great collections.
- Walt Zuti
Roger North
The Orb Saga has been uploaded
Message 37 -
2010-09-02 at 19:30:05
I never thought that if you read comics online that you download on your hard drive or floppy disk. If it's a crime then I'll stop visiting XXX's website. I had no idea that subject would be so controversial.
Bence
The Orb Saga has been uploaded
Message 38 -
2010-09-02 at 20:40:06
Quote from user: Roger NorthI never thought that if you read comics online that you download on your hard drive or floppy disk. If it's a crime then I'll stop visiting XXX's website. I had no idea that subject would be so controversial.
Again: it depends where you live. Not all countries have the same copyright laws.
Again: it depends where you live. Not all countries have the same copyright laws.
Joakim Gunnarsson
The Orb Saga has been uploaded
Message 39 -
2010-09-02 at 22:09:19
Quote from user: rodneyThe musicians that I know are just happy that people want to hear their music. If something is downloaded, they figure that maybe the people will come to a concert and actually spend money that the band gets to have.
No problem if the copyright owner wants to release stuff for free. And giving some stuff away for free works fine as "teasers" to get people hooked.
But the bad thing is when other people begins to spread the stuff without any permission from the copyright holder. Putting entire series or complete collections of some creators works on the net for free won't help sales a bit. I know about people who scan the new Don Rosa books that has been published here in Scandinavia as soon as they are published, and then shares them via the net.
That's only good for people who wants everyting to be free and for people who doesn't care about creators and publishers trying to make ends meet. Freeloaders, in other words.
And I can tell you it's hard times for comic book publishers and creators. Every copy sold counts.
Doesn't matter if the site in question was up during Gemstones publishing run or what Mark Waid says. Neither of them owns the copyright to Disney comics. Go ask Disney's legal department if XXX's site is legal or not. We all know the answer, don't we...
GeoX:
"Well then, it looks like you're part of the problem, doesn't it?"
You obviously didn't get Lars point. Go back and re-read his message. As far as I can tell he's speaking about an average reader, not about himself.
No problem if the copyright owner wants to release stuff for free. And giving some stuff away for free works fine as "teasers" to get people hooked.
But the bad thing is when other people begins to spread the stuff without any permission from the copyright holder. Putting entire series or complete collections of some creators works on the net for free won't help sales a bit. I know about people who scan the new Don Rosa books that has been published here in Scandinavia as soon as they are published, and then shares them via the net.
That's only good for people who wants everyting to be free and for people who doesn't care about creators and publishers trying to make ends meet. Freeloaders, in other words.
And I can tell you it's hard times for comic book publishers and creators. Every copy sold counts.
Doesn't matter if the site in question was up during Gemstones publishing run or what Mark Waid says. Neither of them owns the copyright to Disney comics. Go ask Disney's legal department if XXX's site is legal or not. We all know the answer, don't we...
GeoX:
"Well then, it looks like you're part of the problem, doesn't it?"
You obviously didn't get Lars point. Go back and re-read his message. As far as I can tell he's speaking about an average reader, not about himself.
GeoX
The Orb Saga has been uploaded
Message 40 -
2010-09-02 at 22:55:47
Quote:Go back and re-read his message. As far as I can tell he's speaking about an average reader, not about himself.
You're probably right, but in that case, I must say, I don't even remotely accept the premise that the "average reader" thinks the way he thinks s/he does.
You're probably right, but in that case, I must say, I don't even remotely accept the premise that the "average reader" thinks the way he thinks s/he does.
Roger North
The Orb Saga has been uploaded
Message 41 -
2010-09-03 at 01:09:53
Quote from user: BenceQuote from user: Roger NorthI never thought that if you read comics online that you download on your hard drive or floppy disk. If it's a crime then I'll stop visiting XXX's website. I had no idea that subject would be so controversial.
Again: it depends where you live. Not all countries have the same copyright laws.
That is so true Bence.
Again: it depends where you live. Not all countries have the same copyright laws.
That is so true Bence.
Kneon
The Orb Saga has been uploaded
Message 42 -
2010-09-03 at 05:28:34
Quote from user: Joakim GunnarssonDoesn't matter if the site in question was up during Gemstones publishing run or what Mark Waid says. Neither of them owns the copyright to Disney comics. Go ask Disney's legal department if XXX's site is legal or not. We all know the answer, don't we...
Just to clarify some of my earlier statements: I was in no way condoning XXX's site or hosting scanned material. Yes, it's illegal. There's no question of that.
I was simply pointing out that I know Gemstone and Disney have been aware of XXX's site for years now, and have chosen not to take legal action -- for whatever reason. My guess is that protecting decades old comic book scans simply are not worth the hassle and expense to Disney, when their legal team could be chasing after movie and music pirates instead. You know, the stuff that actually makes them the real money in 2010.
(Gemstone probably never sued because Geppi's lawyers were much too busy fighting off his creditors -- zing!)
Again, Disney's inaction doesn't make it legal, nor am I personally condoning the site.
Now Mark Waid... Mark Waid is a smart, smart man. He took a lot of flack for his comments from industry peers, but I do agree with him for the most part. The genie is out of the bottle. Shut XXX down, but two more sites will just pop up in its place. It's inevitable. Piracy is here to stay, and publishers need to figure out new ways to mitigate the damages. Again, I'm not condoning piracy, just acknowledging it as being part of any entertainment business in 2010.
(It's a running joke amongst many American comic book creators that you haven't "arrived" until your work has been pirated. You know you're good when you're good enough to steal!)
I agree with cacou: Disney should host such a site themselves. Actually, they should have done it 10 years ago -- along with all the other major American comics publishers. Now they're running to catch up with the digital age, banking on the iPad and such. (Personally, I think it's too little, too late for most publishers, but who knows?)
Just to clarify some of my earlier statements: I was in no way condoning XXX's site or hosting scanned material. Yes, it's illegal. There's no question of that.
I was simply pointing out that I know Gemstone and Disney have been aware of XXX's site for years now, and have chosen not to take legal action -- for whatever reason. My guess is that protecting decades old comic book scans simply are not worth the hassle and expense to Disney, when their legal team could be chasing after movie and music pirates instead. You know, the stuff that actually makes them the real money in 2010.
(Gemstone probably never sued because Geppi's lawyers were much too busy fighting off his creditors -- zing!)
Again, Disney's inaction doesn't make it legal, nor am I personally condoning the site.
Now Mark Waid... Mark Waid is a smart, smart man. He took a lot of flack for his comments from industry peers, but I do agree with him for the most part. The genie is out of the bottle. Shut XXX down, but two more sites will just pop up in its place. It's inevitable. Piracy is here to stay, and publishers need to figure out new ways to mitigate the damages. Again, I'm not condoning piracy, just acknowledging it as being part of any entertainment business in 2010.
(It's a running joke amongst many American comic book creators that you haven't "arrived" until your work has been pirated. You know you're good when you're good enough to steal!)
I agree with cacou: Disney should host such a site themselves. Actually, they should have done it 10 years ago -- along with all the other major American comics publishers. Now they're running to catch up with the digital age, banking on the iPad and such. (Personally, I think it's too little, too late for most publishers, but who knows?)
Carl
The Orb Saga has been uploaded
Message 43 -
2010-09-03 at 11:55:37
Greetings everyone, long time reader, first time poster here :)
Just wanted to chime in here on the whole piracy debate: for the most part I agree with GeoX.
We can all agree that scans and the like are lamentable, but are not going away, on the other hand we have to remember that not everyone who downloads/reads it online was planning to buy it. (typical fallacy in the video game business, where they assume that a million downloads equals a lost 50 million dollars)
The biggest issue here is that I too can't follow the logic as in how publishers/artists are losing money from this when many of these scans are decades old/or the only retailers who sell them nowadays are resellers/secondhand people who keep all the profit for themselves.
Case in point, recently while browsing inducks, I came across a lot of stories that haven't been published in english (mostly scarpa and other italian authors), but had been published in Don Miki, a comic from spain, of which I had some when I was a child. This comic was published from 1964-1986 or something like that. I then found a site that had links to scans for those 664+ issues that were published.
Would I feel bad for downloading? yes
Could I buy these right now if I wanted to? no (not even more recent disney comics from 2008 in spain are being resold)
Would I prefer to have these in actual paper? of course
So yeah, I've downloaded a few, feel bad about it, but I'm glad I did, I wouldn't have appreciated many of these fine old stories in any other manner...
Just wanted to chime in here on the whole piracy debate: for the most part I agree with GeoX.
We can all agree that scans and the like are lamentable, but are not going away, on the other hand we have to remember that not everyone who downloads/reads it online was planning to buy it. (typical fallacy in the video game business, where they assume that a million downloads equals a lost 50 million dollars)
The biggest issue here is that I too can't follow the logic as in how publishers/artists are losing money from this when many of these scans are decades old/or the only retailers who sell them nowadays are resellers/secondhand people who keep all the profit for themselves.
Case in point, recently while browsing inducks, I came across a lot of stories that haven't been published in english (mostly scarpa and other italian authors), but had been published in Don Miki, a comic from spain, of which I had some when I was a child. This comic was published from 1964-1986 or something like that. I then found a site that had links to scans for those 664+ issues that were published.
Would I feel bad for downloading? yes
Could I buy these right now if I wanted to? no (not even more recent disney comics from 2008 in spain are being resold)
Would I prefer to have these in actual paper? of course
So yeah, I've downloaded a few, feel bad about it, but I'm glad I did, I wouldn't have appreciated many of these fine old stories in any other manner...
Roger North
The Orb Saga has been uploaded
Message 44 -
2010-09-03 at 13:12:27
It's a shame that Disney doesn't care about their comic books. Maybe that's why sales are suffering. I didn't know XXX's Disney Comics Fan Page was illegal. If I did I wouldn't have visited it and I'm sure there are lots of other people who don't know it's illegal either. I still can't believe Gemstone and DIsney didn't take legal action and shut down the website. If this keeps up then Disney Comics will no longer exist. I wonder if all websites that have comic book stories on them are illegal.
Kneon
The Orb Saga has been uploaded
Message 45 -
2010-09-03 at 13:37:22
Quote from user: carlThe biggest issue here is that I too can't follow the logic as in how publishers/artists are losing money from this when many of these scans are decades old/or the only retailers who sell them nowadays are resellers/secondhand people who keep all the profit for themselves.
Welcome, carl!
And yes, that's 100% correct. A site like XXX's may get thousands of hits, but pulling it doesn't mean that those visitors will automatically run out and buy a legal copy of Barks' or Rosa's work. It just means they'll go elsewhere for freebies. Such is the nature of the internet.
Print is dying, and publishers are looking to pin the blame on pirates as the sole cause. While piracy certainly isn't helping them any, publishers aren't doing themselves any favors by making their back catalog hard to obtain at a reasonable price.
Now, I'll give Marvel kudos here. They have an online subscription service that gives readers access to thousands of comic scans, and before that they offered their titles on DVD-ROM for a very reasonable price. (example: hundreds of issues of Spider-Man for under $50!)
I think the iPad app model is the wrong direction for comics publishers to go in. 99 cents a story seems expensive when most people read a story once or twice and move on. It's not like buying a favorite song on iTunes that someone may listen to hundreds of times.
No, I think comics publishers need to look at Netflix as a business model. For a measly $9/month you get access to a slew of movies and TV shows, that are on demand 24/7 and accessible from a wide array or devices from computers to TVs to phones.
If Disney were to offer some kind of service like THAT, I'd be there in a heartbeat.
Welcome, carl!
And yes, that's 100% correct. A site like XXX's may get thousands of hits, but pulling it doesn't mean that those visitors will automatically run out and buy a legal copy of Barks' or Rosa's work. It just means they'll go elsewhere for freebies. Such is the nature of the internet.
Print is dying, and publishers are looking to pin the blame on pirates as the sole cause. While piracy certainly isn't helping them any, publishers aren't doing themselves any favors by making their back catalog hard to obtain at a reasonable price.
Now, I'll give Marvel kudos here. They have an online subscription service that gives readers access to thousands of comic scans, and before that they offered their titles on DVD-ROM for a very reasonable price. (example: hundreds of issues of Spider-Man for under $50!)
I think the iPad app model is the wrong direction for comics publishers to go in. 99 cents a story seems expensive when most people read a story once or twice and move on. It's not like buying a favorite song on iTunes that someone may listen to hundreds of times.
No, I think comics publishers need to look at Netflix as a business model. For a measly $9/month you get access to a slew of movies and TV shows, that are on demand 24/7 and accessible from a wide array or devices from computers to TVs to phones.
If Disney were to offer some kind of service like THAT, I'd be there in a heartbeat.