I'm afraid I don't have much time to respond (at this moment), but I can interject before this conversation goes any further??
Young Trek, I'm dumbfounded by the amount of effort you put into that study! But actually, it's not significantly cheaper for us to run one kind of story than to run another kind of story. We receive stories from every country/provider in almost any condition: depending on the story, it can be in black and white or color, English or a foreign language (or with no text at all), lettered or still awaiting lettering, dirty or clean. Whether the story is of American origin doesn't really matter anymore: we can no longer order Western stories from Western itself, and Burbank's stockade of S-codes is rather out of order today. We're just as likely to be getting originally American stories from a foreign publisher.
There's even a case of one S-coded story that we needed to publish for continuity's sake, but an original didn't survive in Burbank; two European publishers had both published altered versions; and some English text was irretrievably lost. I personally cut and pasted pieces of the two European versions together, Frankenstein-style, to approximate the complete original, then translated Italian text back to English to fill in spots where the English was lost. Though originally created in the United States, that monster took as much work to reprint as most Italian stories twice its length.
Roger, going by the mail response that we receive, I'd never say that American creators are consistently our most popular??unless you want to extrapolate that from the fact that Barks, Rosa, and Gottfredson are/were Americans. Apart from them, the creators with our largest fanbases come from all over the globe.
Author
Topic: How about a 3rd monthly prestige title?
(54 messages)
Ramapith
How about a 3rd monthly prestige title?
Message 16 -
2008-02-06 at 07:48:29
YoungTrek
How about a 3rd monthly prestige title?
Message 17 -
2008-02-06 at 12:56:27
Hi. I only have time to jot down some quick thoughts before heading out the door to work this morning.
Quote from user: Dean RekichOnce again, Young Trek, I can't thank you enough for writing all that you wrote! You obviously have spent a lot of time and energy on what you posted, and all of that is very much appreciated. I just hope you don't mind that I still disagree with you on some points! :)
I agree that comic book publishing and book publishing are different, but I still think they are close enough that my analogy between hardcover and paperback books makes some sense. Just because you can not make a profit selling an item at one price point and/or format does not mean that same item can not make money at a different price point and/or format.
Maybe. But I think a more appropriate place to look for a comparison when trying to figure out why the 32-page monthlies didn't succeed and if a third prestige title might would be other comics publishers, not a completely different sector of the publishing "world" (novels done in hardback and mass market paperback). The economics are completely different, I think. I mean, one clear difference is that most "real books" (novels) are published in both formats. They are released in hardback first and then later in mass market paperback (where they make most of their money, I think, because they are more widely distributed). Comics kind of have this publishing element now in the form of individual issue release followed by hardcover or trade paperback collections, but that's not exactly what we were talking about here.
Quote from user: Dean RekichI must admit that I wish Gemstone had continued publishing the newsstand titles for $3.50. Of course though, I would have still bought them for even $4.00. I realize that I would probably be in the minority in that though.
If I had to guess why Gemstone decided against continuing printing them at a price of $3.50, I have two thoughts. One, they might have realized that even with raising the price 55 cents that they *still* would not make a profit. Two, they might have realized that they would not even be able to hold them at the $3.50 price for long. After all, Uncle Scrooge and WDC&S were at a price of $7.50 for only a few months before they had to go up to $7.95. I can see how if they were going to have to raise the price on the newsstand titles to $4.00 in say six months that they just decided to quit while they were ahead.
Good point. I still, think, however, that the pretty much across-the-board standard 32-page format cover price these days of $2.99 must have come into play. I mean, they were already selling less copies of the standard format monthlies for $2.99 than they were the prestiges (well, than they were Uncle Scrooge, at least). You raise the price up to $3.50, you're going to lose at least a few of the folks who were buying them, and you can pretty much throw out picking up any new/casual readers because you now are charging more for a standard format monthly Disney comic than the larger two competitors in the U.S. (DC and Marvel) are for their comics.
Quote from user: Dean RekichAs far as Gemstone not being able to make money on newsstand titles at a price of $3.50, I would think a big part of that would be how many copies they could sell each month. Assuming Gemstone titles sell about 4,000 to 5,000 issues a copy, while selling 4,500 copies each month at $3.50 might not make them much money, selling 20,000 to 30,000 copies each month for $3.50 might have been plenty profitable.
Right, but there is just no way that any Disney comic is going to do those sorts of numbers these days, unfortunately. Heck, if they were selling 20,000 copies of Mickey Mouse and Friends or Donald Duck and Friends, I'd imagine they'd still be around at the $2.99 price. They might even have been profitable at half that. Unfortunately, the best selling monthly title seems to have been doing just under one quarter that (U.S., just under 5,000). And I personally don't see any way that the standard monthlies would have started outselling U.S.. So you'd be looking at about a 200 (DD & Friends to 700 MM & Friends increase at most, I think (which would bring those titles' sales up to those of U.S.. Probably not enough to make those standard monthlies profitable at only an additional fifty cent cover price increase (even assuming this "best of" scenario; in reality, I think the sales would have dropped a bit, not gone up).
Quote from user: Dean RekichThere are of course *huge* differences between DC and Marvel, and Gemstone. If DC or Marvel had the license to Disney comics, *none* of the titles Gemstone published would have lasted probably even 6 months! :( There is just no way that DC or Marvel would ever consider 4,000 to 5,000 copies of a title to be worth publishing long. Fortunately, Gemstone does not have any expectations that their titles have to sell in the 20,000 or 30,000 range. While we would all *love* if Gemstone could sell even near that many copies each month, that is just very unlikely to ever happen. The cold hard truth is that Disney comics are just not that popular in North America. I can not express how sad I am over that, as I wish with all my might that they sold much (or even a little) better.
Right, like I said above, Disney comics are just not going to sell that well here right now. And you are correct in that neither DC or Marvel would have continued the books on at sales of less than 5,000 copies per month. Then, again, DC and Marvel bring a certain number of new readers with them since they [b]are[/i] such big comics publishing houses and have their own followers. I'm not saying that Disney comics from them would necessarily sell in the 20,000 to 30,000 range. But they might very well sell up in the same range that DC's "Johnny DC" titles do, which, while not being very good, are certainly higher sales numbers than Gemstone's. (Then, again, the product probably wouldn't be as good as what Gemstone puts out.)
Quote from user: Dean RekichOne good point about Disney comic fans in North America is how dedicated we are. There may not be many of us, but those of us that are here are fiercely loyal and obsessed with Disney comics! :) That is perhaps the *main* reason that I think a 3rd monthly title is such a great idea. By the way, thank so much for the sales figures that you provided. When in December of 2005 the highest selling Gemstone comic sold about 4,800 issues and the lowest of five titles sold 4,000 it just goes to show united Disney comics fans are. They fact that the lowest selling title only sold 20 percent less than the highest selling title is very reassuring. I am sure that if DC or Marvel could have their lowest selling titles sell *50 percent* less than their highest selling title they would be *thrilled*! :) If the two monthly prestige titles are still selling about 4,000 copies a month, I just see no reason that a 3rd monthly devoted to Duck and Mice stories would not sell near the same amount. Of course there is no guarantee of that, but then Gemstone will never find out until they try...
Heh, heh. I'm sorry but I think that, "I'm sure that if DC or Marvel could have their lowest selling title sell *50 percent* less than their highest selling title they would be *thrilled*", is a bit misleading. Keep in mind that DC and Marvel release a boat load of titles each month, first off. Much more than Gemstone. So, it's understandable that the drop off between, say, DC's top selling and bottom selling titles would be more severe. But, more importantly, you're talking about publishers who routinely sell in excess of 100,000 (sometimes 200,000) copies of their best selling title each month, and whose bottom sellers tend to be in the 5,000 to 10,000 range. A whole different world from that of a relatively small publisher like Gemstone, releasing material aimed at a very specific, niche, target audience.
Quote from user: Dean RekichOnce again, Young Trek, I can't thank you enough for writing all that you wrote! You obviously have spent a lot of time and energy on what you posted, and all of that is very much appreciated. I just hope you don't mind that I still disagree with you on some points! :)
I agree that comic book publishing and book publishing are different, but I still think they are close enough that my analogy between hardcover and paperback books makes some sense. Just because you can not make a profit selling an item at one price point and/or format does not mean that same item can not make money at a different price point and/or format.
Maybe. But I think a more appropriate place to look for a comparison when trying to figure out why the 32-page monthlies didn't succeed and if a third prestige title might would be other comics publishers, not a completely different sector of the publishing "world" (novels done in hardback and mass market paperback). The economics are completely different, I think. I mean, one clear difference is that most "real books" (novels) are published in both formats. They are released in hardback first and then later in mass market paperback (where they make most of their money, I think, because they are more widely distributed). Comics kind of have this publishing element now in the form of individual issue release followed by hardcover or trade paperback collections, but that's not exactly what we were talking about here.
Quote from user: Dean RekichI must admit that I wish Gemstone had continued publishing the newsstand titles for $3.50. Of course though, I would have still bought them for even $4.00. I realize that I would probably be in the minority in that though.
If I had to guess why Gemstone decided against continuing printing them at a price of $3.50, I have two thoughts. One, they might have realized that even with raising the price 55 cents that they *still* would not make a profit. Two, they might have realized that they would not even be able to hold them at the $3.50 price for long. After all, Uncle Scrooge and WDC&S were at a price of $7.50 for only a few months before they had to go up to $7.95. I can see how if they were going to have to raise the price on the newsstand titles to $4.00 in say six months that they just decided to quit while they were ahead.
Good point. I still, think, however, that the pretty much across-the-board standard 32-page format cover price these days of $2.99 must have come into play. I mean, they were already selling less copies of the standard format monthlies for $2.99 than they were the prestiges (well, than they were Uncle Scrooge, at least). You raise the price up to $3.50, you're going to lose at least a few of the folks who were buying them, and you can pretty much throw out picking up any new/casual readers because you now are charging more for a standard format monthly Disney comic than the larger two competitors in the U.S. (DC and Marvel) are for their comics.
Quote from user: Dean RekichAs far as Gemstone not being able to make money on newsstand titles at a price of $3.50, I would think a big part of that would be how many copies they could sell each month. Assuming Gemstone titles sell about 4,000 to 5,000 issues a copy, while selling 4,500 copies each month at $3.50 might not make them much money, selling 20,000 to 30,000 copies each month for $3.50 might have been plenty profitable.
Right, but there is just no way that any Disney comic is going to do those sorts of numbers these days, unfortunately. Heck, if they were selling 20,000 copies of Mickey Mouse and Friends or Donald Duck and Friends, I'd imagine they'd still be around at the $2.99 price. They might even have been profitable at half that. Unfortunately, the best selling monthly title seems to have been doing just under one quarter that (U.S., just under 5,000). And I personally don't see any way that the standard monthlies would have started outselling U.S.. So you'd be looking at about a 200 (DD & Friends to 700 MM & Friends increase at most, I think (which would bring those titles' sales up to those of U.S.. Probably not enough to make those standard monthlies profitable at only an additional fifty cent cover price increase (even assuming this "best of" scenario; in reality, I think the sales would have dropped a bit, not gone up).
Quote from user: Dean RekichThere are of course *huge* differences between DC and Marvel, and Gemstone. If DC or Marvel had the license to Disney comics, *none* of the titles Gemstone published would have lasted probably even 6 months! :( There is just no way that DC or Marvel would ever consider 4,000 to 5,000 copies of a title to be worth publishing long. Fortunately, Gemstone does not have any expectations that their titles have to sell in the 20,000 or 30,000 range. While we would all *love* if Gemstone could sell even near that many copies each month, that is just very unlikely to ever happen. The cold hard truth is that Disney comics are just not that popular in North America. I can not express how sad I am over that, as I wish with all my might that they sold much (or even a little) better.
Right, like I said above, Disney comics are just not going to sell that well here right now. And you are correct in that neither DC or Marvel would have continued the books on at sales of less than 5,000 copies per month. Then, again, DC and Marvel bring a certain number of new readers with them since they [b]are[/i] such big comics publishing houses and have their own followers. I'm not saying that Disney comics from them would necessarily sell in the 20,000 to 30,000 range. But they might very well sell up in the same range that DC's "Johnny DC" titles do, which, while not being very good, are certainly higher sales numbers than Gemstone's. (Then, again, the product probably wouldn't be as good as what Gemstone puts out.)
Quote from user: Dean RekichOne good point about Disney comic fans in North America is how dedicated we are. There may not be many of us, but those of us that are here are fiercely loyal and obsessed with Disney comics! :) That is perhaps the *main* reason that I think a 3rd monthly title is such a great idea. By the way, thank so much for the sales figures that you provided. When in December of 2005 the highest selling Gemstone comic sold about 4,800 issues and the lowest of five titles sold 4,000 it just goes to show united Disney comics fans are. They fact that the lowest selling title only sold 20 percent less than the highest selling title is very reassuring. I am sure that if DC or Marvel could have their lowest selling titles sell *50 percent* less than their highest selling title they would be *thrilled*! :) If the two monthly prestige titles are still selling about 4,000 copies a month, I just see no reason that a 3rd monthly devoted to Duck and Mice stories would not sell near the same amount. Of course there is no guarantee of that, but then Gemstone will never find out until they try...
Heh, heh. I'm sorry but I think that, "I'm sure that if DC or Marvel could have their lowest selling title sell *50 percent* less than their highest selling title they would be *thrilled*", is a bit misleading. Keep in mind that DC and Marvel release a boat load of titles each month, first off. Much more than Gemstone. So, it's understandable that the drop off between, say, DC's top selling and bottom selling titles would be more severe. But, more importantly, you're talking about publishers who routinely sell in excess of 100,000 (sometimes 200,000) copies of their best selling title each month, and whose bottom sellers tend to be in the 5,000 to 10,000 range. A whole different world from that of a relatively small publisher like Gemstone, releasing material aimed at a very specific, niche, target audience.
YoungTrek
How about a 3rd monthly prestige title?
Message 18 -
2008-02-06 at 13:00:46
Quote from user: Roger NorthI agree with you that it is sad that Disney Comics aren't popular in the USA Dean but at least they still publish two of them. If it wasn't for fans like us they would have gone out of business a long time ago. Two Disney comics are better than none in my opinon. Yes it would be cool if they did a third prestige format but that's only speculation at this point. Of Course it is sad they cancelled their Standard Format titles and Take A Long Books but they couldn't afford to publish them anymore. It's a miracle that Gemstone has stayed in business for as long as it has. They just got back from a three month hiatus and they're still going strong. Maybe there is hope for them. As long there are fans like us out there I'm pretty sure Gemstone will stay in business for at least one or two more years if not more than that.
One thing. I don't think that there has ever really been any danger of Gemstone "going out of business". They have been around, publishing various things, since before they got the Disney license, and they still publish various other projects these days (their EC Archives line is doing very well, for instance).
I understand that you probably meant that they very well could have dropped the Disney license (or have been dropped by Disney) by this point if not for fans like us (which very well might be the case; I've kind of wondered how long they will end up having the license as obviously there is a history of Disney's moving it around and, if the sales market seems weak enough, not doing comics at all; I'm grateful that Gemstone has been able to "hang in there" this long!).
One thing. I don't think that there has ever really been any danger of Gemstone "going out of business". They have been around, publishing various things, since before they got the Disney license, and they still publish various other projects these days (their EC Archives line is doing very well, for instance).
I understand that you probably meant that they very well could have dropped the Disney license (or have been dropped by Disney) by this point if not for fans like us (which very well might be the case; I've kind of wondered how long they will end up having the license as obviously there is a history of Disney's moving it around and, if the sales market seems weak enough, not doing comics at all; I'm grateful that Gemstone has been able to "hang in there" this long!).
YoungTrek
How about a 3rd monthly prestige title?
Message 19 -
2008-02-06 at 13:06:18
Quote from user: Roger NorthDavid I never meant to imply that all the Disney Comic Artists were American. I just meant that most of the ones I'm familiar with are. I think that the three you mentioned Carl Barks, Floyd Gottfredson and Don Rosa are American in the sense that they live in this country. I know the first two are born in this country and the third originally came from Italy. I know that not all Disney Comic Artists are American. I never meant to imply that they were. I'm sure every Disney Comic Artist is good no matter where they come from. I'm not one to judge. Although I agree that Barks, Gottfredson, and Rosa are the most popular artists despite the fact that Barks and Gottfredson are both dead. I'm offended to think that you would call me prejudice. I'm not prejudice. I think the foreign Disney artists have every chance of being popular as the American artists.
Hi Roger. I don't see anywhere in David Gerstein's message where he called you "prejudiced", or even hinted at it. You might want to read that again.
And, just to toss in my opinion, while I would personally have enjoyed the two standard monthlies doing more (or all) American "classic" reprints, I doubt that it would have had any effect whatsoever on their overall sales. It wouldn't, after all, have been likely to have made folks who weren't already buying any Disney comics all of sudden start to pick those two titles up. So, at best, you'd probably be looking at numbers around the same range as those that Uncle Scrooge sells at (so only slightly better).
And, I should probably add in here that in my chart stuff up above looking at the U.S. coded stories that Gemstone has done so far, a lot (most?) of the Don Rosa stuff does not show up in the U.S. stuff because, despite the fact that he is an American artist, most(?) of his stuff is European coded stuff (done for the European market). Or, at least, most of the stuff that Gemstone has done so far, has. So keep that in mind when you look at my figures above.
Hi Roger. I don't see anywhere in David Gerstein's message where he called you "prejudiced", or even hinted at it. You might want to read that again.
And, just to toss in my opinion, while I would personally have enjoyed the two standard monthlies doing more (or all) American "classic" reprints, I doubt that it would have had any effect whatsoever on their overall sales. It wouldn't, after all, have been likely to have made folks who weren't already buying any Disney comics all of sudden start to pick those two titles up. So, at best, you'd probably be looking at numbers around the same range as those that Uncle Scrooge sells at (so only slightly better).
And, I should probably add in here that in my chart stuff up above looking at the U.S. coded stories that Gemstone has done so far, a lot (most?) of the Don Rosa stuff does not show up in the U.S. stuff because, despite the fact that he is an American artist, most(?) of his stuff is European coded stuff (done for the European market). Or, at least, most of the stuff that Gemstone has done so far, has. So keep that in mind when you look at my figures above.
Ramapith
How about a 3rd monthly prestige title?
Message 20 -
2008-02-06 at 21:41:26
Hi Roger,
Here's the conversation we just had:Quote from user: you...the American stories are seemingly more popular than the foreign stories.
Quote from user: IRoger, going by the mail response that we receive, I'd never say that American creators are consistently our most popular...
If you felt I was calling you prejudiced, that was never my intent. It simply seemed like you were saying that in the Gemstone titles, American creators were apparently more popular than foreign creators; I simply disagreed, given my own perception from working for the publisher.
No intent to call you biased, man.
Here's the conversation we just had:Quote from user: you...the American stories are seemingly more popular than the foreign stories.
Quote from user: IRoger, going by the mail response that we receive, I'd never say that American creators are consistently our most popular...
If you felt I was calling you prejudiced, that was never my intent. It simply seemed like you were saying that in the Gemstone titles, American creators were apparently more popular than foreign creators; I simply disagreed, given my own perception from working for the publisher.
No intent to call you biased, man.
YoungTrek
How about a 3rd monthly prestige title?
Message 21 -
2008-02-09 at 19:01:56
Whoops! Just realized that I only had the first two Free Comic Book Day issues in my index. Here are some revised figures:
Quote from user: YoungTrek2005: 62 U.S coded stories reprinted out of 272 (again, I think). Number of these 62 U.S. coded stories done in the two monthly prestige titles: 31. U.S. coded stories per monthly prestige average (24 monthly prestige issues released in 2005): 1.3. Number of U.S. coded stories done in the two "annuals" in 2005 (Christmas Parade #3, Vacation Parade #2): 8. Average there: 4. (Totals: 31 in the prestige monthlies vs. 8 in the annuals.)
2005 (revised): 63 U.S. coded stories reprinted out of 273 total. (Since this revision is only to add the FCBD issue, the number of U.S. coded stories per the two monthly prestige titles stays the same, as does the number done in the two "annuals", and as do the averages given above)
Quote from user: YoungTrek2006: 93 U.S coded stories reprinted out of 296 (again, I think*). Number of these 93 U.S. coded stories done in the two monthly prestige titles: 42. U.S. coded stories per monthly prestige average (24 monthly prestige issues released in 2006): 1.75. Number of U.S. coded stories done in the two "annuals" in 2006 (Christmas Parade #4, Vacation Parade #3): 9. Average there: 4.5. (Totals: 42 in the prestige monthlies vs. 9 in the annuals.) (* Gets a little tricky here as they started reprinting the newspaper strips over several issues. Since the purpose of this is to determine the average number of U.S. coded stories per issue, I counted, say, "Mickey Joins the Foreign Legion" as four stories as it was broken up over four prestige monthly issues. Only the first chapter of "Foreign Legion" appeared in 2006, though, so the latter three chapters count below in 2007 figures.)
2006 (revised): 95 U.S. coded stories reprinted out of 299 total. (Since this revision is only to add the FCBD issue, the number of U.S. coded stories per the two monthly prestige titles stays the same, as does the number done in the two "annuals", and as do the averages given above)
Quote from user: YoungTrek2007 (Jan to Oct): 43 U.S coded stories reprinted out of 126 (again, I think). Number of these 43 U.S. coded stories done in the two monthly prestige titles: 34. U.S. coded stories per monthly prestige average (20 monthly prestige issues released in 2007): 1.7. Number of U.S. coded stories done in the two "annuals" in 2007 (Vacation Parade #4, Spring Fever #1): 7. Average there: 3.5. (Totals: 34 in the prestige monthlies vs. 7 in the annuals.*) (* Note: Skewed because 20 out of 24 of the regularly scheduled monthly prestige issues came out in 2007 but only 2 out of 3 of the annuals. I don't know how many U.S. coded stories were planned for Christmas Parade #5 but I imagine it was probably in the area of three to five.)
2007 (revised): 45 U.S. coded stories reprinted out of 128 total. (Since this revision is only to add the FCBD issue, the number of U.S. coded stories per the two monthly prestige titles stays the same, as does the number done in the two "annuals", and as do the averages given above)
Quote from user: YoungTrek(P.S.: And just to toss this in, here's the breakdown of U.S. vs. non-U.S. coded stories released per year by Gemstone, based on my numbers above (which, again, I don't make any guarantees as to their being perfect or anything):
2004: 54 U.S. coded stories out of 255 total (21.2%)
2005: 62 U.S. coded stories out of 272 total (22.8%)
2006: 93 U.S. coded stories out of 296 total (31.4%)
2007: 43 U.S. coded stories out of 126 total (34.1%)
2004-2007 (total): 252 U.S. coded stories out of 949 total (26.6%)
(revised)
2003: 21 U.S. coded stories out of 115 total (18.3%) (forgot to include this initial, partial year, here the first time around)
2004: 54 U.S. coded stories out of 255 total (21.2%)
2005: 63 U.S. coded stories out of 273 total (23.1%) (revised figure)
2006: 95 U.S. coded stories out of 299 total (31.8%) (revised figure)
2007: 45 U.S. coded stories out of 128 total (35.2%) (revised figure)
2004-2007 (total): 257 U.S. coded stories out of 955 total (26.9%)
(I haven't added the two new "November 2007" cover dated US and WDC&S to my index yet. Was planning on using them as the start of my 2008 figures since they didn't ship until January 2008, but then they arrived with "November 2007" cover dates, so, to be consistent with the rest of my index which goes by the cover dates I might end up revising my 2007 figures again to include them and any "December 2007" cover dated issues Gemstone might still do.)
Quote from user: YoungTrek2005: 62 U.S coded stories reprinted out of 272 (again, I think). Number of these 62 U.S. coded stories done in the two monthly prestige titles: 31. U.S. coded stories per monthly prestige average (24 monthly prestige issues released in 2005): 1.3. Number of U.S. coded stories done in the two "annuals" in 2005 (Christmas Parade #3, Vacation Parade #2): 8. Average there: 4. (Totals: 31 in the prestige monthlies vs. 8 in the annuals.)
2005 (revised): 63 U.S. coded stories reprinted out of 273 total. (Since this revision is only to add the FCBD issue, the number of U.S. coded stories per the two monthly prestige titles stays the same, as does the number done in the two "annuals", and as do the averages given above)
Quote from user: YoungTrek2006: 93 U.S coded stories reprinted out of 296 (again, I think*). Number of these 93 U.S. coded stories done in the two monthly prestige titles: 42. U.S. coded stories per monthly prestige average (24 monthly prestige issues released in 2006): 1.75. Number of U.S. coded stories done in the two "annuals" in 2006 (Christmas Parade #4, Vacation Parade #3): 9. Average there: 4.5. (Totals: 42 in the prestige monthlies vs. 9 in the annuals.) (* Gets a little tricky here as they started reprinting the newspaper strips over several issues. Since the purpose of this is to determine the average number of U.S. coded stories per issue, I counted, say, "Mickey Joins the Foreign Legion" as four stories as it was broken up over four prestige monthly issues. Only the first chapter of "Foreign Legion" appeared in 2006, though, so the latter three chapters count below in 2007 figures.)
2006 (revised): 95 U.S. coded stories reprinted out of 299 total. (Since this revision is only to add the FCBD issue, the number of U.S. coded stories per the two monthly prestige titles stays the same, as does the number done in the two "annuals", and as do the averages given above)
Quote from user: YoungTrek2007 (Jan to Oct): 43 U.S coded stories reprinted out of 126 (again, I think). Number of these 43 U.S. coded stories done in the two monthly prestige titles: 34. U.S. coded stories per monthly prestige average (20 monthly prestige issues released in 2007): 1.7. Number of U.S. coded stories done in the two "annuals" in 2007 (Vacation Parade #4, Spring Fever #1): 7. Average there: 3.5. (Totals: 34 in the prestige monthlies vs. 7 in the annuals.*) (* Note: Skewed because 20 out of 24 of the regularly scheduled monthly prestige issues came out in 2007 but only 2 out of 3 of the annuals. I don't know how many U.S. coded stories were planned for Christmas Parade #5 but I imagine it was probably in the area of three to five.)
2007 (revised): 45 U.S. coded stories reprinted out of 128 total. (Since this revision is only to add the FCBD issue, the number of U.S. coded stories per the two monthly prestige titles stays the same, as does the number done in the two "annuals", and as do the averages given above)
Quote from user: YoungTrek(P.S.: And just to toss this in, here's the breakdown of U.S. vs. non-U.S. coded stories released per year by Gemstone, based on my numbers above (which, again, I don't make any guarantees as to their being perfect or anything):
2004: 54 U.S. coded stories out of 255 total (21.2%)
2005: 62 U.S. coded stories out of 272 total (22.8%)
2006: 93 U.S. coded stories out of 296 total (31.4%)
2007: 43 U.S. coded stories out of 126 total (34.1%)
2004-2007 (total): 252 U.S. coded stories out of 949 total (26.6%)
(revised)
2003: 21 U.S. coded stories out of 115 total (18.3%) (forgot to include this initial, partial year, here the first time around)
2004: 54 U.S. coded stories out of 255 total (21.2%)
2005: 63 U.S. coded stories out of 273 total (23.1%) (revised figure)
2006: 95 U.S. coded stories out of 299 total (31.8%) (revised figure)
2007: 45 U.S. coded stories out of 128 total (35.2%) (revised figure)
2004-2007 (total): 257 U.S. coded stories out of 955 total (26.9%)
(I haven't added the two new "November 2007" cover dated US and WDC&S to my index yet. Was planning on using them as the start of my 2008 figures since they didn't ship until January 2008, but then they arrived with "November 2007" cover dates, so, to be consistent with the rest of my index which goes by the cover dates I might end up revising my 2007 figures again to include them and any "December 2007" cover dated issues Gemstone might still do.)
WB
How about a 3rd monthly prestige title?
Message 22 -
2008-02-11 at 18:32:42
I've been sitting here for the longest time trying to figure out how I'm going to respond to this thread and I can't because David has really said everything I wanted to say and with far greater elocution. Thanks a lot man, now I'm inadequate. XD
I suppose that I don't mind the annuals - if Christmas Parade or Vacation Parade went away I know I'd probably be the first to cry foul and bloody murder. Not so much Spring Fever or Autumn Adventures (the last of which gemstone doesn't do anyway) I really like the idea of the Donald Duck Family Jippes annuals. Honestly I **KNOW** I would prefer the Donald Duck Family series to the Barks/Rosa one if only because I've read those stories a bazillion times as opposed to Jippes.
Because of the complications surrounding Albums and retailers (and I can see where retailers are coming from on this. Albums are cumbersome to display), I really do think that if Gemstone is going to concentrate on anything like that then Trade Paperbacks are the way to go. Personally I see TPB's as the replacements to the Album series, but maybe I'm the only one. Already we've had what - 6 or 7 TPB's? - and look at how well they have done for Gemstone. I say that those need to stay and more effort should be made into a more widespread TPB series that can be displayed in MULTIPLE venues as opposed to the specials which are more apt to be only found in the comic book stores.
Now the crux of this conversation: Donald Duck and Mickey Mouse VS Mickey & Doanld
I just moved into a new apartment and one of the benefits of this is that I brought my comic book collection with me. I was looking through my old Gladstones when I realized something: At some point, Donald Duck, Mickey Mouse and MAYBE Uncle Scrooge went on a bimonthly alternating schedule.
Now the way the books are set up now - Comics and Stories (for the most part when its done right) is the variety book and Uncle Scrooge is a combination of "Uncle Scrooge VS Uncle Scrooge Adventures".
Now my argument and personal preference is that I would greatly prefer it if Donald Duck and Mickey Mouse had their own seperate books - each one printed BIMONTHLY so that in essence we'd still only have 3 books - its just that with each month we either get Donald or Mickey. now why do I personally think that this is more ideal than say Donald and Mickey as just one book? Let me explain my reasoning.
Uncle Scrooge.
Look at how its set up. In the old days, Egmont Mickey stories were - for the most part - appaling to most people in the states. It's part of the main reason why Gladstone I never used them. EVER. It remained that way for a long time until Disney came into play and especially the "reboot". This meant that during the Egmont Mickey moratorium, short Mickey stories only came from the backstock of the Dell/Gold Key era and beacuse Gladstone's output for Mickey Mouse was 100% Floyd Gottfredson that meant the only place short Mickey stories could go was Mickey and Donald (part of why that book was created in the first place along with showcasing Bill Wright/introducing Romano Scarpa stateside/Eega Beeva etc). Mickey and Donald had - from its inception into the Gemstone II era been the outlet for "the other good stuff" + early vs late Barks 10 pager reprints.
Uncle Scrooge contains Uncle Scrooge shorts + long adventures. There's no real need for Uncle Scrooge Adventures anymore because the books have been condensed into one. We get short and long material.
Now compare that to Donald Duck and Mickey Mouse. We have room for short Donald but not long Donald. Same goes for Mickey. Everythings just kind of shoehorned into Comics and Stories when space allows. think about it. When was the last time we saw a long Barks Donald Duck adventure since Gemstone started? Never. And when a new long adventure thats donald focused comes along, we get it serialized in Comics and Stories. Same goes for Mickey. They NEED their own books.
If they did, and were produced on a bimonthly alternating schedule we could get short Donald and Long Donald VS Short Mickey and Long Mickey in their own books. Furthermore we could also maintain the numbering. Mickey Mouse is dangerously close t0 300. Donald, 350. It would be nice to have them back.
The ONLY drawback - and I do mean only - that I see to this is what happens if a book doesn't sell well. I honestly don't think that would happen because the core books pretty much maintain their same numbers and remain steady for the most part. The sales of the specials and TPB's (David's figures) prove that a third book WOULD for the most part be sustainable. Making the books alternating bimonthly cements a smaller risk because its TECHNICALLY 3 books and not four.
We'd get a larger variety of stories that would be available also. By that I mean - think about Donald and Mickey and how Gemstone would have to lay it out for a second. Let's say that they also model it after Uncle Scrooge - IE short stories + a long adventure.
The best that Mickey and Donald could do is:
Short Donalds + Long Mickey
Short Mickeys + Long Donald
This setup isn't bad at ALL mind you, but I think we would be getting a few more stories and have a bit more wiggle room for things that could be printed in their own books. By this I think of those incredibly long Gottfredson and or Italian DD/MM stories that would have to be forcefully serialized or held off because "We have to make room for Donald" or "We have to make room for Mickey". It's all about space the way I see it and every little bit helps. (plus - yet again - it'd be a shame to let the original book numberings languish in limbo)
Whatever Gemstone decides to do I'll support it, but I really TRULY hope that we get a third book no matter what it is, and I hope Gemstone realizes that its customers support it.
I suppose that I don't mind the annuals - if Christmas Parade or Vacation Parade went away I know I'd probably be the first to cry foul and bloody murder. Not so much Spring Fever or Autumn Adventures (the last of which gemstone doesn't do anyway) I really like the idea of the Donald Duck Family Jippes annuals. Honestly I **KNOW** I would prefer the Donald Duck Family series to the Barks/Rosa one if only because I've read those stories a bazillion times as opposed to Jippes.
Because of the complications surrounding Albums and retailers (and I can see where retailers are coming from on this. Albums are cumbersome to display), I really do think that if Gemstone is going to concentrate on anything like that then Trade Paperbacks are the way to go. Personally I see TPB's as the replacements to the Album series, but maybe I'm the only one. Already we've had what - 6 or 7 TPB's? - and look at how well they have done for Gemstone. I say that those need to stay and more effort should be made into a more widespread TPB series that can be displayed in MULTIPLE venues as opposed to the specials which are more apt to be only found in the comic book stores.
Now the crux of this conversation: Donald Duck and Mickey Mouse VS Mickey & Doanld
I just moved into a new apartment and one of the benefits of this is that I brought my comic book collection with me. I was looking through my old Gladstones when I realized something: At some point, Donald Duck, Mickey Mouse and MAYBE Uncle Scrooge went on a bimonthly alternating schedule.
Now the way the books are set up now - Comics and Stories (for the most part when its done right) is the variety book and Uncle Scrooge is a combination of "Uncle Scrooge VS Uncle Scrooge Adventures".
Now my argument and personal preference is that I would greatly prefer it if Donald Duck and Mickey Mouse had their own seperate books - each one printed BIMONTHLY so that in essence we'd still only have 3 books - its just that with each month we either get Donald or Mickey. now why do I personally think that this is more ideal than say Donald and Mickey as just one book? Let me explain my reasoning.
Uncle Scrooge.
Look at how its set up. In the old days, Egmont Mickey stories were - for the most part - appaling to most people in the states. It's part of the main reason why Gladstone I never used them. EVER. It remained that way for a long time until Disney came into play and especially the "reboot". This meant that during the Egmont Mickey moratorium, short Mickey stories only came from the backstock of the Dell/Gold Key era and beacuse Gladstone's output for Mickey Mouse was 100% Floyd Gottfredson that meant the only place short Mickey stories could go was Mickey and Donald (part of why that book was created in the first place along with showcasing Bill Wright/introducing Romano Scarpa stateside/Eega Beeva etc). Mickey and Donald had - from its inception into the Gemstone II era been the outlet for "the other good stuff" + early vs late Barks 10 pager reprints.
Uncle Scrooge contains Uncle Scrooge shorts + long adventures. There's no real need for Uncle Scrooge Adventures anymore because the books have been condensed into one. We get short and long material.
Now compare that to Donald Duck and Mickey Mouse. We have room for short Donald but not long Donald. Same goes for Mickey. Everythings just kind of shoehorned into Comics and Stories when space allows. think about it. When was the last time we saw a long Barks Donald Duck adventure since Gemstone started? Never. And when a new long adventure thats donald focused comes along, we get it serialized in Comics and Stories. Same goes for Mickey. They NEED their own books.
If they did, and were produced on a bimonthly alternating schedule we could get short Donald and Long Donald VS Short Mickey and Long Mickey in their own books. Furthermore we could also maintain the numbering. Mickey Mouse is dangerously close t0 300. Donald, 350. It would be nice to have them back.
The ONLY drawback - and I do mean only - that I see to this is what happens if a book doesn't sell well. I honestly don't think that would happen because the core books pretty much maintain their same numbers and remain steady for the most part. The sales of the specials and TPB's (David's figures) prove that a third book WOULD for the most part be sustainable. Making the books alternating bimonthly cements a smaller risk because its TECHNICALLY 3 books and not four.
We'd get a larger variety of stories that would be available also. By that I mean - think about Donald and Mickey and how Gemstone would have to lay it out for a second. Let's say that they also model it after Uncle Scrooge - IE short stories + a long adventure.
The best that Mickey and Donald could do is:
Short Donalds + Long Mickey
Short Mickeys + Long Donald
This setup isn't bad at ALL mind you, but I think we would be getting a few more stories and have a bit more wiggle room for things that could be printed in their own books. By this I think of those incredibly long Gottfredson and or Italian DD/MM stories that would have to be forcefully serialized or held off because "We have to make room for Donald" or "We have to make room for Mickey". It's all about space the way I see it and every little bit helps. (plus - yet again - it'd be a shame to let the original book numberings languish in limbo)
Whatever Gemstone decides to do I'll support it, but I really TRULY hope that we get a third book no matter what it is, and I hope Gemstone realizes that its customers support it.
RancidDuck
How about a 3rd monthly prestige title?
Message 23 -
2008-02-12 at 10:48:28
I agree with you WB. I believe that an alternating Mickey then Donald prestige book would be the way to go. I don't really have much else to add, except for my vote. It would be nice for them to continue their numbering and they each deserve a book of their own.
YoungTrek
How about a 3rd monthly prestige title?
Message 24 -
2008-03-01 at 17:02:03
I just got done adding the three January 2008 shipping items (DuckTales Featuring Scrooge's Quest by Marv Wolfman, which was supposed to ship September 2007, and Walt Disney's Comics and Stories #686 and Uncle Scrooge #371, both of which were supposed to have been November 2007) to my index. Since I know that there will be two more issues to add, however, I'll wait to post my final figures for U.S. coded stories reprinted in 2007 (since these books still have the 2007 cover dates despite being bumped to 2008).
And to make it easier to find (and more appropriate), I'll probably start a new thread at that time, with links back to the pertinent messages here.
(I will go ahead and say that, just looking at these three issues--well, two issues and one trade paperback--there were seventeen stories total (plus three covers, one Barks cut scene, and one additional story segment by Rosa added to the story with the cut scene), ten of which are U.S. coded stories. Ten out of seventeen. Of course, that'll happen when one of the three items you're looking at is a trade focusing specifically on a seven part story arc that originally ran in the U.S. Disney Comics DuckTales series back in 1990. Still, this should definitely help to boost that U.S.-to-European-story-code ratio even a bit more for 2007.)
And to make it easier to find (and more appropriate), I'll probably start a new thread at that time, with links back to the pertinent messages here.
(I will go ahead and say that, just looking at these three issues--well, two issues and one trade paperback--there were seventeen stories total (plus three covers, one Barks cut scene, and one additional story segment by Rosa added to the story with the cut scene), ten of which are U.S. coded stories. Ten out of seventeen. Of course, that'll happen when one of the three items you're looking at is a trade focusing specifically on a seven part story arc that originally ran in the U.S. Disney Comics DuckTales series back in 1990. Still, this should definitely help to boost that U.S.-to-European-story-code ratio even a bit more for 2007.)
Mykal
How about a 3rd monthly prestige title?
Message 25 -
2008-03-30 at 18:41:06
I hope I am not covering much-treaded ground, but I would LOVE a Mickey title. With Mickey, you always get his great sidekick and friend, Goofy - who, I must admit, is my favorite Disney character. If cost is the issue (when isn't it?) might we get a third Mickey title not in the prestige format, but in the standard comic format? I would be more than satisfied with that - just so we can get those great mouse artists and writers more exposure, telling and drawing those great Mickey and Goofy adventures. --Mykal Banta
Robb_K
How about a 3rd monthly prestige title?
Message 26 -
2008-03-30 at 19:40:10
I'm afraid that NO comic book in standard format would return sales to even support its cost. Gemstone would be leery about publishing a regular Mickey Mouse prestige format comic book, as both Gladstone's and Gemstone's readership have indicated significantly less support for Mickey and Goofy than for The Ducks.
I, too, would like a regular Mickey Mouse issue, which would print the Gottfredson/Wright/Gonzales/Moores/Scarpa/Hultgren/Murray/ and other artists' stories which have not yet been printed by Gladstone or Gemstone. But, I'm afraid that we will have to settle for a few Gottfredson and Mickey special books, and the odd Mickey story in WDC & S and Disney Treasures, and other special books.
I, too, would like a regular Mickey Mouse issue, which would print the Gottfredson/Wright/Gonzales/Moores/Scarpa/Hultgren/Murray/ and other artists' stories which have not yet been printed by Gladstone or Gemstone. But, I'm afraid that we will have to settle for a few Gottfredson and Mickey special books, and the odd Mickey story in WDC & S and Disney Treasures, and other special books.
Ramapith
How about a 3rd monthly prestige title?
Message 27 -
2008-03-30 at 20:52:39
Quote:Gladstone's and Gemstone's readership have indicated significantly less support for Mickey and Goofy than for The Ducks.
"Significantly"? Forgive me, Rob, but where do you get this?
Approximate figures on Gemstone's Mickey and Donald $2.95 books were about 4,300 (Mickey) vs 4,500 (Donald). Mickey and Donald pocketbooks sold neck-and-neck most of the time, with Mickey Vol 1 doing better than any Donald volume.
The main problem was simply relative sales as compared to the prestige books, not a question of mice versus ducks.
It seems fairly straightforward to me that today's consumer marketplace??in which older kids have "House of Mouse" on TV and Mickey's entire classic library on DVD, and younger kids have the new CGI preschool series??is simply more conducive to breeding young Mickey fans than the 1980s, at which time the Ducks were highly visible in DuckTales and Mickey had nothing comparable.
Let's please stop treating "Donald beats Mickey by a wide margin" as conventional wisdom. It was true once, but no longer; the main problem is merely people assuming it to be true, which affects marketability regardless of the truth.
Apologies if I sound harsh. I feel terrible being in the spot of "perpetual critic." I just want to get the truth out there.
The Mickey Free Comic Book Day issue last year blew all our other free books out of the water, with comic shops taking many more than any of the duck FCBD titles that came before.
"Significantly"? Forgive me, Rob, but where do you get this?
Approximate figures on Gemstone's Mickey and Donald $2.95 books were about 4,300 (Mickey) vs 4,500 (Donald). Mickey and Donald pocketbooks sold neck-and-neck most of the time, with Mickey Vol 1 doing better than any Donald volume.
The main problem was simply relative sales as compared to the prestige books, not a question of mice versus ducks.
It seems fairly straightforward to me that today's consumer marketplace??in which older kids have "House of Mouse" on TV and Mickey's entire classic library on DVD, and younger kids have the new CGI preschool series??is simply more conducive to breeding young Mickey fans than the 1980s, at which time the Ducks were highly visible in DuckTales and Mickey had nothing comparable.
Let's please stop treating "Donald beats Mickey by a wide margin" as conventional wisdom. It was true once, but no longer; the main problem is merely people assuming it to be true, which affects marketability regardless of the truth.
Apologies if I sound harsh. I feel terrible being in the spot of "perpetual critic." I just want to get the truth out there.
The Mickey Free Comic Book Day issue last year blew all our other free books out of the water, with comic shops taking many more than any of the duck FCBD titles that came before.
Dean Rekich
How about a 3rd monthly prestige title?
Message 28 -
2008-03-30 at 21:01:51
Quote from user: MykalI hope I am not covering much-treaded ground, but I would LOVE a Mickey title. With Mickey, you always get his great sidekick and friend, Goofy - who, I must admit, is my favorite Disney character. If cost is the issue (when isn't it?) might we get a third Mickey title not in the prestige format, but in the standard comic format? I would be more than satisfied with that - just so we can get those great mouse artists and writers more exposure, telling and drawing those great Mickey and Goofy adventures. --Mykal Banta
Mykal, thanks for your interest in a 3rd title! By far the best way to get such a third title is to email Gemstone directly! So *please* send Gemstone an email requesting such a third title, in your case you would like it to be a Mickey one. No matter how many people say they want a 3rd title on the DCF or other places on the Net, I think the thing that will affect Gemstone the most is actually messages written to Gemstone. So I will also ask *anyone* else interested in a 3rd monthly title to *please* email Gemstone and request one. Also, if you know someone who reads Disney comics but is not active on the Internet, give them the email address for Gemstone and tell them to write Gemstone if they to are interested in a 3rd title.
As for it being a standard format comic, that would be fine by me. However, I don't think Gemstone thinks they can make money on comics in this format anymore, so I think a 3rd title would have to be in the prestige format.
Thanks again, Mykal!
Mykal, thanks for your interest in a 3rd title! By far the best way to get such a third title is to email Gemstone directly! So *please* send Gemstone an email requesting such a third title, in your case you would like it to be a Mickey one. No matter how many people say they want a 3rd title on the DCF or other places on the Net, I think the thing that will affect Gemstone the most is actually messages written to Gemstone. So I will also ask *anyone* else interested in a 3rd monthly title to *please* email Gemstone and request one. Also, if you know someone who reads Disney comics but is not active on the Internet, give them the email address for Gemstone and tell them to write Gemstone if they to are interested in a 3rd title.
As for it being a standard format comic, that would be fine by me. However, I don't think Gemstone thinks they can make money on comics in this format anymore, so I think a 3rd title would have to be in the prestige format.
Thanks again, Mykal!
Mykal
How about a 3rd monthly prestige title?
Message 29 -
2008-03-30 at 21:12:09
David: Consider that email to Gemstone sent!
Robb_K
How about a 3rd monthly prestige title?
Message 30 -
2008-03-30 at 21:58:45
Quote from user: ramapithApproximate figures on Gemstone's Mickey and Donald $2.95 books were about 4,300 (Mickey) vs 4,500 (Donald). Mickey and Donald pocketbooks sold neck-and-neck most of the time, with Mickey Vol 1 doing better than any Donald volume.
The main problem was simply relative sales as compared to the prestige books, not a question of mice versus ducks.
It seems fairly straightforward to me that today's consumer marketplace??in which older kids have "House of Mouse" on TV and Mickey's entire classic library on DVD, and younger kids have the new CGI preschool series??is simply more conducive to breeding young Mickey fans than the 1980s, at which time the Ducks were highly visible in DuckTales and Mickey had nothing comparable.
Let's please stop treating "Donald beats Mickey by a wide margin" as conventional wisdom. It was true once, but no longer; the main problem is merely people assuming it to be true, which affects marketability regardless of the truth.
Apologies if I sound harsh. I feel terrible being in the spot of "perpetual critic." I just want to get the truth out there.
The Mickey Free Comic Book Day issue last year blew all our other free books out of the water, with comic shops taking many more than any of the duck FCBD titles that came before.
This is welcomed news. Given that Mickey is almost as popular as The Ducks, it would make sense for the 3rd Prestige book (if we can get one), should be a Mickey book. One Mouse book, one Duck book and one mixed book sounds fine. But, as there are significantly more Duck stories than Mouse stories printed by Egmont and Sanoma Uitgevers, maybe more people will want one Uncle Scrooge Book, one WDC (various characters), and the 3rd can be "Mickey and Donald"-alternating each month? That sounds reasonable.
The main problem was simply relative sales as compared to the prestige books, not a question of mice versus ducks.
It seems fairly straightforward to me that today's consumer marketplace??in which older kids have "House of Mouse" on TV and Mickey's entire classic library on DVD, and younger kids have the new CGI preschool series??is simply more conducive to breeding young Mickey fans than the 1980s, at which time the Ducks were highly visible in DuckTales and Mickey had nothing comparable.
Let's please stop treating "Donald beats Mickey by a wide margin" as conventional wisdom. It was true once, but no longer; the main problem is merely people assuming it to be true, which affects marketability regardless of the truth.
Apologies if I sound harsh. I feel terrible being in the spot of "perpetual critic." I just want to get the truth out there.
The Mickey Free Comic Book Day issue last year blew all our other free books out of the water, with comic shops taking many more than any of the duck FCBD titles that came before.
This is welcomed news. Given that Mickey is almost as popular as The Ducks, it would make sense for the 3rd Prestige book (if we can get one), should be a Mickey book. One Mouse book, one Duck book and one mixed book sounds fine. But, as there are significantly more Duck stories than Mouse stories printed by Egmont and Sanoma Uitgevers, maybe more people will want one Uncle Scrooge Book, one WDC (various characters), and the 3rd can be "Mickey and Donald"-alternating each month? That sounds reasonable.