Keskustelujen arkisto

"Luna Storta" wrote, in response to Dave Rawson:

>ABOUT THE SOUTHERN BAPTIST CONVENTION'S VOTE:
> I can't belive that in the USA are really such opinion movements: I
>always thought that it was just a movie-feature... Really I can't belive
>that in a so-called democratic counrty some people can IMPOSE their
>opinion on other ones!!!

Dave's remarks are only in keeping with my own life experiences, but
"Luna's" really popped my eyes! It's always an education to realize, again,
that folks outside the USA get their view of what goes on *inside* the USA
from many of the same sources as those we Americans access for our
impressions of the "world at large." That I'm almost always startled by
such a hoary non-revelation is no doubt due to my classically insular
midwestern Missouri origins.

Gary

****************************
"I've got blistahs on my fingahs!" - Ringo Starr
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Gladstone on the Web: http://www.hamlco.com/bhc/
---------------------------------------------------------------------

The Comics Journal now has an update on the lawsuit Bruce Hamilton
filed against Carl Barks, Bill Grandey, Kathy Morby och Becky Hoff,
as reported by TCJ #195.

It's titled "Barks Quacks Back: Countersuit Against Hamilton in the
Works", written by Greg Stump and can be found at
<http://www.halcyon.com/fgraphic/News/barks1.html>.

--------------------------------
End of Disney comics Digest V97 Issue #127
******************************************

To all those interested:
The complete list of Bruno Sarda's stories is available on the Anonima
Fumetti's web site (http://www.alpcom.it/fumetti/).
Bruno Sarda's page is: http://www.alpcom.it/fumetti/sarda.htm from there
you can get the list (http://www.alpcom.ti/fumetti/sardadis.htm).
The list was made by the author himself. Bye!

*** Gianfranco Goria | comics script-writer, divulger, consultant
mailto:(Email removed) | http://www.alpcom.it/fumetti/goria.htm
snail mail --> | corso San Maurizio 55, 10124 Torino, Italia.
phone: ++39 +11 836889 | fax c/o Anonima Fumetti: ++39 +11 4333797
President: Anonima Fumetti, the Italian cartoonists society
Director: Centro Nazionale del Fumetto, Italian comic art centre
Webmaster: http://www.alpcom.it/fumetti/ http://www.arpnet.it/~fisac/
http://www.arpnet.it/~fumetti/ http://www.cgil.it/fisac/

GARY:

I think it should be noted that although we Europeans receive much
information from America from the media, the picture we get is still somewhat
distorted.
The information is gathered not only by the news and documentaries of some
of the stranger things that happen in America, but also the popular
culture; movies, tv shows, and yes, comics. While it is ofcourse realised
that tv shows, for example, do not show the actual reality they are still
important contributors - if only unconscious ones - to the way we think of
the United States. We know that entertainment reflects reality, so we
believe that what we see carries at least the seeds of the truth. Much of
this is still regarded with disbelief ("They can't really ALL go to an
analyst, can they?"), but still. It can be guessed that the "truths" like
this learned unconsciously from the tv shows aren't necessarily very
accurate - or very flattering. And in our minds this is combined to the
news and the documentaries that we see which are outright negative most of
the time (as you know, bad news are the most common news and the best news
saleswise).

I guess what I'm trying to say here is that the information we receive
tends to emphasize the bad side of things. The picture we get of America
can be pretty bleak at times. As an American exchange student in Finland
said: "If my only information ofAmerica would be what I see and hear here,
I would be too scared to go back".

I'm not saying that we should disregard all negative information and look
the world through rose-red glasses, but just think about the information
we receive and consider the other side of things too. I know that at least
we Finns are ever worried about what kind of picture the world has of us,
but I think we should also ask: what kind of picture do we have of the
world?

---Jyrki Vainio---

For the lighter side of Disneyana, some of which relates obliqely to the
comics characters, see this temporary page courtesy of the New York
Times.

http://www.nytimes.com/library/cyber/hyperwocky/062197hyper.html

--
riverrun past Eve's and Adam's from swerve of shore to bend of bay
(Email removed) -=*=- http://users.aol.com/dcrawson/home.htm

JAKOB:

> [About the Italian Rosa-book]
> > But the most
> > interesting thing for the English-speaking folks is the COMPLETE index of
> > Don's work by Harry Fluks.
> Based on "The Complete Rosa Index" by Jakob Soederbaum... :-/

Not "based on". I had a near-complete index myself, and I double-checked it with
yours, and a handful of other people's. BTW, your index is ALMOST complete.
And, as I found out, *my* index is ALMOST complete as well... 8-)

> When my own
> publication appears everyone will blame me for having stolen the facts from
> this index... ::Sigh!::

Just like you "blame" me for having stolen your facts? 8-)
It's very difficult to have a copyright on an index. Especially on one that was
developed independently by several people!

> I'm listing any versions, alterations, art changing, censoring, etc. in my
> Rosa-index. My intention with this index has been to index every published
> drawn line by Rosa, and I've managed quite well. It's all in Swedish, but I
> will be translating it sometime in the future.

Did you notice that the USA version of the "Shrinking Tightwad" has an EXTRA
page? Apparently, Don drew this to make up for the three pages that had to be
deleted. I especially liked the "gravity" gag! I had to look at it three times before
I saw what was going on!

> What was the exception with "Hearts of the Yukon"?

Gladstone had a deal with Egmont that they could publish the story first.

> Hmm.. now that it appears another Rosa-story will first be printed in the
> states, does this mean that Don slowly is getting back to do work first-hand
> for Gladstone?

Sometimes, editors have special arrangements. For instance, for Don's story
"A Little Something Special", celebrating Scrooge's 50th anniversary, Gladstone
and GP (in Holland) are allowed to publish it almost simultaneously with the
Egmont countries.

> Don Rosa has a pin-up in the new Untold Tales of Spider-Man '97.
> Can someone get me a copy??

Me too, me too!

--Harry.

--------------------------------
End of Disney comics Digest V97 Issue #128
******************************************

JONATHAN MARKOFF writes, regarding "the mother of all Duck cartoon/comic
conflictions" (meaning the one between the Duck comics and "DuckTales"):

<<Don Rosa and me, of course, have eliminated this problem completely:
DuckTales simply never happened! Ignoring me and Don's mindless devotion to
Barks's universe only (although he is more intense than me in that quest),
there are more reasons why than you can shake a stick at! The theory of
Chris, Joe, etc., is that DuckTales takes place "after" the Barks stories,
but if this is true, then that means the Ducks had certain adventures ("Back
to the Klondike," "The Lemming With the Locket," etc.) in Barks stories,
then, AFTER that, in DuckTales, had the SAME adventures, with slight
variations, and didn't remember the first times! Example: in Barks' "Back to
the Klondike," Scrooge was reacquainted with Glittering Goldie for the first
time since 1898, described in vivid flashback that event in the past. AFTER
Barks, in DuckTales, Scrooge met Goldie for the first(!) time since 1898,
and described in vivid flashback the exact same in event in the past, and it
happened in the past differently than the first time it happened in the
past! (I'm beginning to sound like Don describing his time-machine
stories!)...>>

Joe and I recognize the conflicts inherent in the existence of TWO different
versions of Barks stories (the ones produced by Barks himself and the ones
presented in "DuckTales"). We tend to take a "cafeteria" approach to the
"acceptability" of the animated versions of Barks' stories. In some cases,
the Barks version is unquestionably superior and can safely be regarded as
THE only "official" version of the story; examples include the adaptations of
"Land Beneath the Ground," "The Horseradish Story," "The Great Steamboat
Race," and "Micro Ducks from Outer Space". In other cases, the "DuckTales"
version is superior, due to an imaginative use of the made-for-TV characters
in place of the absent Donald and the addition of several successful new gags
and subplots WITHOUT too much tinkering with the basic structure of Barks'
original; examples include the adaptations of "The Unsafe Safe," "Tralla La,"
and "The Lemming With The Locket." When the quality of the adaptation
demands it, we have no difficulty holding two separate high-quality versions
of the same story in our minds, just as we have no difficulty reconciling Don
Rosa's "filling in" of the timeline of Scrooge's past life with the version
of Scrooge's "untold adventures" that we ourselves may have extrapolated from
Barks' stories.

<<Other problems in this theory are: Huey, Dewey, and Louie starred in all
those Barks adventures alongside Scrooge, yet in the first DuckTales episode
(AFTER Barks) it is established that Scrooge and HDL have previously never
met, except for brief occasions that resulted in no good impressions. And
then there are the Beagle Boys, who have apparently experienced some
unexplained mass mutation which caused them to morph into all different
sizes, while Flintheart Glomgold has not only had a change of appearance,
but a change of nationality as well!>>

The portrayal of HD&L and Scrooge in "Treasure of the Golden Suns" was
dictated by the necessity to "introduce" the characters to a mass audience
that may never have seen them in action; once "Golden Suns" is concluded,
this portrayal does not influence "DuckTales"' future stories in any tangible
fashion (such as the nephews constantly referring to their unfamiliarity with
Scrooge's lifestyle, etc.). The "DT" Beagle Boys were given names and
personalities in order to help the audience tell them apart; the "morphing"
certainly did not change their basic function in the Duck "universe" As for
Glomgold, Barks never stated where the character was BORN; he merely
portrayed him as living and making his fortune in South Africa. It is
entirely possible (if not probable, given Glomgold's stinginess) that
Flintheart, like Scrooge, was born in Scotland, and that he emigrated to S.A.
at an early age in the same manner that Scrooge emigrated to America. In the
years since "So Far and No Safari" (the last Barks story featuring Glomgold),
Flintheart may have decided to move to Duckburg to keep closer tabs on
Scrooge, and he may also have taken to wearing kilts and a tam o'shanter out
of a renewed interest in his heritage (as well as a desire to show Scrooge
that he can be even more of the stereotypical "thrifty Scotsman" than Scrooge
can).

DAVE RAWSON comments, regarding the Southern Baptist Convention's vote to
boycott Disney:

<<1) The Southern Baptist Convention was founded as a schismatic group,
splintering from the American Baptist Convention, *precisely* over
racist tenets. (e.g. The Southern Baptists *refused* to allow blacks
church membership based on the bizarre theology that blacks were
pre-destined by God to be inferior beings after the Great Flood,
descended as they were, the sons of Ham, begat of Noah and cursed by
him.)
2) It was only *a couple of years ago* that the Southern Baptists
finally renounced their racist origin!
4) Currently, the Southern Baptists are simply acting in accord with
their prior long-standing practice of excluding blacks, using "Biblical"
reasoning. And so, the doctrinal history of the Southern Baptists is
entirely consistent whenever using such bigoted exclusionary postulates.
That's what they've always done.>>

Points (1) and (2) are both correct (though I would have appreciated a more
precise definition of "a couple of years ago"). Regarding theology, however,
the "consistency" in the Baptists' "Biblical reasoning" that Rawson cites in
(4) is not quite as cut-and-dried as one would think. Regardless of one's
views on the matter of gay rights, one cannot deny that there is a heck of a
lot more explicit condemnation of homosexuality in the Bible than there is
condemnation of supposedly "inferior" races. The "Ham" argument mentioned in
(1) was unquestionably tricked up to support the racial separatism that
spurred the S.B.'s schism. But those who prepare to debate the S.B.'s should
be prepared for a barrage of extremely specific Biblical quotes -- and be
ready to explain why these quotes, like the "Ham" argument, ought to be
considered "inoperative" in the modern interpretations of the Bible.

<<5) The United States Constitution *guarantees* equal application of its
principles to *all* U.S. citizens, gays not excluded. Therefore, it is
"gay-friendly" under the Southern Baptist's twisted logic (that is,
affording gays the same equitable treatment as others amounts to
"favoritism"). It follows in a hilarious ipso facto, then, that the
Southern Baptists must, to be god-fearing by their *own* latest declared
accords, renounce their citizenship immediately! (The irony is that
these American ayatollahs were among the most vociferous "America --
Love It or Leave It!" demagogues of times past.)>>

I think that describing the S.B.'s as "American ayatollahs" is somewhat
misleading. The S.B.'s do not control the morals of this entire nation,
after all... though judging from LUNA STORTA's comments, I have to wonder
what sort of picture the American media have tried to project to the
international community on this question. Judging from their performance
within these borders, perhaps the media HAVE consciously attempted to give
overseas observers the impression that these groups have more power than they
actually have.

Rawson strikes an important point when he jokingly suggests that the Southern
Baptists, by following their own "twisted logic," may want to renounce their
citizenship. This mindset is not as far-fetched as one would think. Some
religious rightists in this country are definitely turning anti-American, in
the sense that they are increasingly prone to regard the US government as an
illegitimate "regime" engaged in a vast conspiracy designed to subvert their
lives. It is basically the same sort of paranoid mindset that gripped the
extreme antiwar and racial-separatist groups of the 60's and 70's, such as
the Black Panthers and the Weathermen. As you may recall, a number of people
lost their lives during that time period because of terrorist attacks on
installations that were condemned as "agents of war", such as research labs.
As demonstrated in the Oklahoma City Federal Building bombing case and the
occasional attacks on abortion clinics, there is a definite possibility of
the more extreme members of the religious right turning to "mass violence" in
the same way that some of the extreme anti-government rightists have.

I do not support the Baptists' boycott of Disney because it will simply
result in them becoming even MORE insular than they already are, thus feeding
the aforementioned paranoid fears and making an ultimate violent
confrontation more likely. I think that they would be better off simply
explaining in detail to the American public exactly WHY they think this
boycott is necessary. If they refuse to do so, then their opponents will
have a legitimate reason to question their adherence to democratic
principles. Let's have a REAL debate, rather than going off in our own
little corners to spit curses at each other.

<<It boggles my mind and breaks my heart at how too often religion is
twisted to serve petty hatreds. Isn't it *finally* time the world threw
off the shackles of such pathetically loud ignorance, and laughed out of
existence these remaining pockets of otherwise cancerous intolerance?!>>

I breathed a sigh of relief that Rawson suggested "laughing" the "cancer" out
of existence. Normally, dehumanizing words like "exterminating" or "burning
out" are used when describing a group of people or their views as a "cancer."

Laughter may indeed be an effective strategy here, but simple ridicule is
liable to further deepen the Baptists' growing distrust of the society in
which they live. Talking about the issue now may help to defuse a far uglier
situation later.

<<I thank Barks for giving to future creators the delightful legacy of an
open arena in which anything can appear and anything can happen, if in
service to the story, its characters, and the meaning it contains.>>

I agree... as long as one side does not end up dictating what "meanings" are
acceptable in said "arena". There is an equal amount of danger in religious
intolerance AND in the imposition of "speech codes" and skewed subject matter
at colleges and universities. In both cases, the "arena" ends up looking
more like a slaughterhouse pit.

Christopher E. Barat
(Email removed)
Homepage http://members.aol.com/cebarat/home.htm
"WE OUGHT TO PUT ALL THE F---ING REPUBLICANS UP AGAINST THE WALL." --
overheard in passing at Brown University, one of the US' most liberal
universities.

PER STARBACK asked, in relation to the Barks story in WDC&S 76:

<<At the end...there's a silhoutte of Donald chasing the "cantankerous cat"
just crossing a county border, which can be seen by a sign saying
ENTERING
SQUASH
COUNTY
DON'T PICKA
DA PUNK!
Somehow I get a feeling there's some joke I don't get here. Why squash?
What punk shouldn't be picked on? Please someone explain! Am I just dense,
or can I conveniently blame my not understanding this on being a foreigner?>>

I think that even some modern-day AMERICANS would have major trouble
understanding the gag here. "Don't picka da punk" is supposed to mimic the
way an immigrant Italian would say, "Don't pick the pumpkins" (thus the
connection to squash).

Supposedly, in the early days of heavy Italian immigration to the United
States (around the turn of the 20th century, I believe), a number of Italians
who settled in the large cities worked as fruit and vegetable salesmen,
flower salesmen, popcorn and peanut vendors, and other kinds of "street
vendors." The ethnic jokes and cartoons of the time habitually gave such
people "Italian" clothes, fancy mustaches, and/or stereotyped "Italian"
accents. Barks, Gottfredson, and Al Talaiferro all made use of such
characters: for example, Gottfredson did so in the daily strip story "Oscar
the Ostrich," while Barks did so in the untitled "Jingo the Monkey" backup
story in the "Mummy's Ring" issue of DONALD DUCK FOUR COLOR. Like black
shoeshiners and Chinese laundrymen, Italian fruit and vegetable salesmen were
one of the standard ethnic stereotypes of American popular culture for a good
many years.

JYRKI VAINIO commented, regarding the view Europeans have of America from the
popular media:

<<I guess what I'm trying to say here is that the information we receive
tends to emphasize the bad side of things. The picture we get of America can
be pretty bleak at times. As an American exchange student in Finland said:
"If my only information of America would be what I see and hear here, I would
be too scared to go back".
I'm not saying that we should disregard all negative information and look the
world through rose-red glasses, but just think about the information we
receive and consider the other side of things too. I know that at least we
Finns are ever worried about what kind of picture the world has of us, but I
think we should also ask: what kind of picture do we have of the world?>>

Just remember this: NO society's popular culture has ever engaged in
self-flagellation to the degree that America's popular culture does. No
wonder we all end up needing to visit the analyst...!

DWIGHT DECKER commented, regarding popular images of Finland in the US:

<<Uh, I hate to say it, but in the US it pretty much comes down to lots of
snow, reindeer and saunas.>>

Don't forget ski-jumping. (Unfortunately, this image only catches people's
attention every four years during the Winter Olympics.)

AUGIE DE BLIECK comments, regarding the claim that the Southern Baptists are
"trying to impose their views on others":

<<They're not. They are not trying to impose their view on anyone, now have
they. They are merely using their pocket book in true, capitalist fashion
in
an attempt to put pressure on a company to change its policies. They are
practicing the true art of democracy and freedom and capitalism, not
destroying
it.
Also, this was merely a bill passed in the church's convention. It's kind
of
like a political platform adopted at a party's national convention. It's
there, but how closely it's adhered to is another matter, and it's quite
often
completely ignored.>>

Augie echoes the point I made in the last mailout regarding the gap between
Dave Rawson's description of the SB's as "American ayatollahs" and the
reality of the situation, namely, that SB's can speak ONLY for their own
group (and not all SB's agree with the idea of boycotting EVERYTHING related
to Disney). As I said before, the real problem with the boycott approach is
that it does not address the question of how the SB's can convince people
outside their own jurisdiction that this is a proper course of action.

JAKOB SOEDERBRAUM asked, regarding "DuckTales":

<<Bubba and GizmoDuck was both introduced to us swedes in movie-length
adventures split in 5 parts or so. I remember a friend who's lived half of
his life in the states said he'd seen both *as* movies. I'd like to know
if they actually *are* entire movies, which can be found on home video or
a fellow collector's video-tape, or if it was just bullshit he told me?>>

No, he was correct. "Time is Money" and "Super DuckTales" both debuted as
"movie-length adventures" -- the former in syndication (like "Treasure of the
Golden Suns"), the latter on the NBC TV network (when it still ran "The
Magical World of Disney"). While individual collectors may have copies of
the original movies, they have NEVER been released on home video.

-- Christopher E. Barat
(Email removed)
Homepage http://members.aol.com/cebarat/home.htm
"THATS THE TROUBLE WITH BEIN' RICH... THE POOR FOLKS WON'T LEAVE YEZ ALONE!"
-- Big Time Beagle, "DuckTales" episode "Dough Ray Me"