Speaking of WDC 633, Gladstone's last issue of WDC with "War of the
Wendigo"--I've often wondered, did Gladstone in fact finally get permission
to print Wendigo? I don't suppose they could possibly have published it
without Disney's go-ahead, but I did wonder about the possibility, since it
was their last hurrah anyway (as in, Disney can't do anything to us now
anyway). I well remember hearing that someone at Disney had suggested to
Rosa that he replace the Peeweegahs in his story with little blue elves.
Uncle Scrooge in the Land of the Smurfs!! I don't know how I'd feel about
the Peeweegahs if I were an American Indian (or, what's the phrase in
Canada? Indigenous peoples?). They're clearly heroes of the environment, and
they win out over Scrooge, even though they are look-alike stepchildren of a
stereotype. Much better, anyway, than some of the Indians in other Barks
tales, which reflect more directly the negative ethnic stereotypes used
freely in the comedy/entertainment world 50 years ago. And I, at least, am
glad that Scrooge got to visit the Peeweegahs again and that we all got to
read about it. (I love Donald's comment when he's being carried on a vine
strung between two flying eagles....) Not to mention, glad that Rosa got to
see the story in print in English, after all the time he spent writing all
the dialogue in Hiawathan!
Which also leads me to ask....when the Peeweegahs stories are published in
other languages, do they ever try to put the Peeweegah dialogue in meter? Or
do they figure there's no point in doing that, since the meter won't remind
their readers of Hiawatha?
Author
Topic: 200607
(106 messages)
Elaine Ramshaw
Wendigo
Message 1 -
2006-07-01 at 05:14:08
Danshane
Wendigo
Message 2 -
2006-07-02 at 14:31:47
ELAINE WRITES:
I don't know how I'd feel about the Peeweegahs if I were an American Indian (or, what's the phrase in Canada? Indigenous peoples?).
AND I RESPOND:
The people who were already in Canada to greet Champlain and Cabot are commonly referred to as "First Nations".
Dan
I don't know how I'd feel about the Peeweegahs if I were an American Indian (or, what's the phrase in Canada? Indigenous peoples?).
AND I RESPOND:
The people who were already in Canada to greet Champlain and Cabot are commonly referred to as "First Nations".
Dan
Nils
Wendigo / Hiawathan [not] spoken here
Message 3 -
2006-07-02 at 17:50:02
Elaine Ramshaw commented on "War of the Wendigo":
<< Not to mention, glad that Rosa got to see the story
in print in English, after all the time he spent writing all
the dialogue in Hiawathan! >>
and asked:
<< Which also leads me to ask....when the Peeweegahs stories
are published in other languages, do they ever try to put the
Peeweegah dialogue in meter? Or do they figure there's no
point in doing that, since the meter won't remind their readers
of Hiawatha? >>
I should ideally have checked all sources here & supplied
more specific information, but I can't do so from where
I am now ... so this is just by memory & association:
* The Norwegian version of Barks'[s] original Peeweegah
U$ #18 story appeared first in 1962, and is a classic,
translated I think by Elisabeth Skaare. She did *not* really
go for the HW Longfellow 1855 meter, or for the Kalevalian
runometer, but allowed the Peeweegans to _rhyme_,
which they did wondrously:
Tror du elgen her, min bror
godtar eiendomsmeglerord?
should be fondly recitable for all Norwegians of elevated
education.
* When Rosa's War of the Wendigo story was published
(1993?), the publishers might have wondered for a minute
whether they should honour Kalevala and Longfellow
and Barks'[s] and Rosa's texts directly, so to speak,
or whether it would feel even more appropriate to honour
the successful and famous 1962 translation. They chose
the second line, which I think was a fine decision.
So, again, the 1993 Peeweegans rhyme as excellently
and purposefully as they did in 1962, but not in runometric
style:
P? tide ? g? til aksjon!
Tilkall Hjort- og Elg-bataljon!
Beverne stiller fulltallig opp --
stinkdyr kommer i samplet tropp.
* When Rosa's Sammon Salaisuus (The Quest for Kalevala)
was published in Norwegian, Swedish and German in 2001,
hard & conscentious work and many loving man-hours went
into giving Rosa's kalevalarunometrics the best of
translations -- I know, since I was given the privilege of
carrying out the Norwegian translation, and I was in email
contact with the Swedish and German translators (and heard
later on that the Danish translation was less well done??).
There was also one page in the Norwegian edition (also
my privilege & responsibility) that gave some appropriate
background facts and connections, from Hiawatha to the
Peeweegans and Elias L?nnrot and Jean Sibelius etc.
Nils Lid Hjort
<< Not to mention, glad that Rosa got to see the story
in print in English, after all the time he spent writing all
the dialogue in Hiawathan! >>
and asked:
<< Which also leads me to ask....when the Peeweegahs stories
are published in other languages, do they ever try to put the
Peeweegah dialogue in meter? Or do they figure there's no
point in doing that, since the meter won't remind their readers
of Hiawatha? >>
I should ideally have checked all sources here & supplied
more specific information, but I can't do so from where
I am now ... so this is just by memory & association:
* The Norwegian version of Barks'[s] original Peeweegah
U$ #18 story appeared first in 1962, and is a classic,
translated I think by Elisabeth Skaare. She did *not* really
go for the HW Longfellow 1855 meter, or for the Kalevalian
runometer, but allowed the Peeweegans to _rhyme_,
which they did wondrously:
Tror du elgen her, min bror
godtar eiendomsmeglerord?
should be fondly recitable for all Norwegians of elevated
education.
* When Rosa's War of the Wendigo story was published
(1993?), the publishers might have wondered for a minute
whether they should honour Kalevala and Longfellow
and Barks'[s] and Rosa's texts directly, so to speak,
or whether it would feel even more appropriate to honour
the successful and famous 1962 translation. They chose
the second line, which I think was a fine decision.
So, again, the 1993 Peeweegans rhyme as excellently
and purposefully as they did in 1962, but not in runometric
style:
P? tide ? g? til aksjon!
Tilkall Hjort- og Elg-bataljon!
Beverne stiller fulltallig opp --
stinkdyr kommer i samplet tropp.
* When Rosa's Sammon Salaisuus (The Quest for Kalevala)
was published in Norwegian, Swedish and German in 2001,
hard & conscentious work and many loving man-hours went
into giving Rosa's kalevalarunometrics the best of
translations -- I know, since I was given the privilege of
carrying out the Norwegian translation, and I was in email
contact with the Swedish and German translators (and heard
later on that the Danish translation was less well done??).
There was also one page in the Norwegian edition (also
my privilege & responsibility) that gave some appropriate
background facts and connections, from Hiawatha to the
Peeweegans and Elias L?nnrot and Jean Sibelius etc.
Nils Lid Hjort
M.J. Prior
Wendigo
Message 4 -
2006-07-03 at 12:02:15
Gary Leach:
> This story was published in Walt Disney's Comics and
> Stories 633 - Gladstone's final issue of that title -
> back in early 1999.
Oh boy, I wasn't even fully into Disney comics at that
time yet. But if "War of the Wendigo" was already printed
in 1999, why has there *even since then* been so much
discussion about Disney not wanting to print it and "are
we ever going to see this story in America"? Or maybe I am
confusing the older discussions I read in the archives
with the discussions that I actually witnessed here on
dcml. Oh boy, oh boy.
Greetings,
Michiel Prior.
> This story was published in Walt Disney's Comics and
> Stories 633 - Gladstone's final issue of that title -
> back in early 1999.
Oh boy, I wasn't even fully into Disney comics at that
time yet. But if "War of the Wendigo" was already printed
in 1999, why has there *even since then* been so much
discussion about Disney not wanting to print it and "are
we ever going to see this story in America"? Or maybe I am
confusing the older discussions I read in the archives
with the discussions that I actually witnessed here on
dcml. Oh boy, oh boy.
Greetings,
Michiel Prior.
Donald D. Markstein
Wendigo
Message 5 -
2006-07-03 at 14:25:14
In 1999, I wrote an article about this topic. I have posted it where
members of this list can take a look.
By the way, it isn't hard to write in rhythm, and "The Song of Hiawatha"
("Kalevala" if you're European) is among the simplest. Just in case you
haven't noticed (or are used to other ways of reading English) I've been
using "Hiawatha" rhythm this entire message.
Stepping out of "dialect", the URL of the article I just posted is
http://www.uncadonald.com/wendigo.htm
Quack, Don
members of this list can take a look.
By the way, it isn't hard to write in rhythm, and "The Song of Hiawatha"
("Kalevala" if you're European) is among the simplest. Just in case you
haven't noticed (or are used to other ways of reading English) I've been
using "Hiawatha" rhythm this entire message.
Stepping out of "dialect", the URL of the article I just posted is
http://www.uncadonald.com/wendigo.htm
Quack, Don
Dan Shane
Peeweegah speak
Message 6 -
2006-07-04 at 18:37:48
DONALD MARKSTEIN WRITES:
In 1999, I wrote an article about this topic. I have posted it where members
of this list can take a look.
By the way, it isn't hard to write in rhythm, and "The Song of Hiawatha"
("Kalevala" if you're European) is among the simplest. Just in case you
haven't noticed (or are used to other ways of reading English) I've been
using "Hiawatha" rhythm this entire message.
AND IN MY SMART-ALECKY WAY I RESPOND:
In that message I find nothing
Of the Hiawatha meter.
If that rhythm may be hidden
It is yet to be discovered.
DAN
In 1999, I wrote an article about this topic. I have posted it where members
of this list can take a look.
By the way, it isn't hard to write in rhythm, and "The Song of Hiawatha"
("Kalevala" if you're European) is among the simplest. Just in case you
haven't noticed (or are used to other ways of reading English) I've been
using "Hiawatha" rhythm this entire message.
AND IN MY SMART-ALECKY WAY I RESPOND:
In that message I find nothing
Of the Hiawatha meter.
If that rhythm may be hidden
It is yet to be discovered.
DAN
Elaine Ramshaw
Hiawathan
Message 7 -
2006-07-05 at 03:02:25
Dan, I can't read the first paragraph of Don's message in Hiawathan either;
but the second I can.
By the way, it isn't hard to
Write in rhythm, and the Song of
Hiawatha (Kalevala
If you're European) is a-
Mong the simplest. Just in case you
Haven't noticed (or are used to
Other ways of reading English)
I've been using Hiawatha
Rhythm this entire message.
Anyway, thanks much to Nils for a most informative and interesting response.
And thanks to Don Markstein for the link to his article. It doesn't answer
my question about whether Gladstone actually got permission to print
Wendigo, but it does legitimate my entertaining the question.
And while I'm writing to you, Don--here's a thank-you note for your work.
There are only about a dozen comic stories that I read and re-read that are
not written by either Barks or Rosa. Two of those dozen are your "King of
the Bungaloos" (WDC 635) and "Surefoot Jones" (MMF 261). Also, the line
about picking the microchips out of the squirrels' fur in "The Hot Seat" (U$
284) is on my Funniest Lines Ever list. As someone whose parents raised her
on Gilbert & Sullivan, I'm also quite fond of "Three little birds from jail
are we" in "Ten-Penny Opera" (U$&DD 1).
Thanks also to those who have posted links to Amazon for future comics,
because that alerted me that I could get previews of the prestige comics for
the next six months by looking them up on Amazon.
Elaine
but the second I can.
By the way, it isn't hard to
Write in rhythm, and the Song of
Hiawatha (Kalevala
If you're European) is a-
Mong the simplest. Just in case you
Haven't noticed (or are used to
Other ways of reading English)
I've been using Hiawatha
Rhythm this entire message.
Anyway, thanks much to Nils for a most informative and interesting response.
And thanks to Don Markstein for the link to his article. It doesn't answer
my question about whether Gladstone actually got permission to print
Wendigo, but it does legitimate my entertaining the question.
And while I'm writing to you, Don--here's a thank-you note for your work.
There are only about a dozen comic stories that I read and re-read that are
not written by either Barks or Rosa. Two of those dozen are your "King of
the Bungaloos" (WDC 635) and "Surefoot Jones" (MMF 261). Also, the line
about picking the microchips out of the squirrels' fur in "The Hot Seat" (U$
284) is on my Funniest Lines Ever list. As someone whose parents raised her
on Gilbert & Sullivan, I'm also quite fond of "Three little birds from jail
are we" in "Ten-Penny Opera" (U$&DD 1).
Thanks also to those who have posted links to Amazon for future comics,
because that alerted me that I could get previews of the prestige comics for
the next six months by looking them up on Amazon.
Elaine
Elaine Ramshaw
Erratum!
Message 8 -
2006-07-05 at 05:07:15
Oops! The Gilbert & Sullivan take-off is by David Gerstein, of course.
Excuse the momentary mind melt. Must be the heat.
Elaine
Excuse the momentary mind melt. Must be the heat.
Elaine
Kriton Kyrimis
Wendigo
Message 9 -
2006-07-05 at 11:07:15
ELAINE:
> Which also leads me to ask....when the Peeweegahs stories are published in
> other languages, do they ever try to put the Peeweegah dialogue in meter?
In the Greek version, the Peweegahs spoke in "metered fifteen-syllable"
verses, which is the style used in most Greek folk songs.
Here's a quick and dirty sample of this style in English:
The Greek Peweegahs spoke like this, the Komix people managed.
I cannot write a lot like this, what else can rhyme with "managed"?
Note the internal rhyme at the 8th syllable, at the point of the comma.
To accommodate such long verses into the word balloons, the Komix people had
to break them at arbitrary places, but the rhythm of the language made the use
of this style pretty obvious.
Kriton.
-----
"Captain... you are BLUE!"
-----
> Which also leads me to ask....when the Peeweegahs stories are published in
> other languages, do they ever try to put the Peeweegah dialogue in meter?
In the Greek version, the Peweegahs spoke in "metered fifteen-syllable"
verses, which is the style used in most Greek folk songs.
Here's a quick and dirty sample of this style in English:
The Greek Peweegahs spoke like this, the Komix people managed.
I cannot write a lot like this, what else can rhyme with "managed"?
Note the internal rhyme at the 8th syllable, at the point of the comma.
To accommodate such long verses into the word balloons, the Komix people had
to break them at arbitrary places, but the rhythm of the language made the use
of this style pretty obvious.
Kriton.
-----
"Captain... you are BLUE!"
-----
Dan Shane
Still confused..
Message 10 -
2006-07-05 at 16:56:58
ELAINE RAMSHAW WROTE:
>>>
Dan, I can't read the first paragraph of Don's message in Hiawathan either;
but the second I can.
By the way, it isn't hard to
Write in rhythm, and the Song of
Hiawatha (Kalevala
If you're European) is a-
Mong the simplest. Just in case you
Haven't noticed (or are used to
Other ways of reading English)
I've been using Hiawatha
Rhythm this entire message. >>>
AND I GRUMBLE:
Sorry Elaine, but I have trouble buying the idea that one can claim a poetic
metric is applied by simply breaking sentences (or syllables, for that
matter!) wherever one wants. Such a pattern would mean every sentence in
the English language is written in Longfellow's Song of Hiawatha meter as
long as the paragraph's syllables are divisible by eight. That would seem
to diminish the hard work Longfellow, Barks, and Rosa put into carefully
constructing their phrases to achieve the sing-song rhythm that is so
obvious to anyone who reads it.
I don't wish to belittle Don Markstein's past creative works, but in this
one instance I still cannot pick up the intended beat even after you have
broken the lines for me. Yes, I can force the inflections if I read it
aloud, but it doesn't naturally flow (at least not in my lazy brain).
The Song of Hiawatha has been one of my favorite written works since
childhood. I would certainly like to think that Longfellow spent his
one-and-one-half years on the poem doing more than writing his story in
prose and simply breaking the sentences at every eighth silly-bobble,
ignoring any natural breaks due to punctuation or change of thought.
PICKY DAN
>>>
Dan, I can't read the first paragraph of Don's message in Hiawathan either;
but the second I can.
By the way, it isn't hard to
Write in rhythm, and the Song of
Hiawatha (Kalevala
If you're European) is a-
Mong the simplest. Just in case you
Haven't noticed (or are used to
Other ways of reading English)
I've been using Hiawatha
Rhythm this entire message. >>>
AND I GRUMBLE:
Sorry Elaine, but I have trouble buying the idea that one can claim a poetic
metric is applied by simply breaking sentences (or syllables, for that
matter!) wherever one wants. Such a pattern would mean every sentence in
the English language is written in Longfellow's Song of Hiawatha meter as
long as the paragraph's syllables are divisible by eight. That would seem
to diminish the hard work Longfellow, Barks, and Rosa put into carefully
constructing their phrases to achieve the sing-song rhythm that is so
obvious to anyone who reads it.
I don't wish to belittle Don Markstein's past creative works, but in this
one instance I still cannot pick up the intended beat even after you have
broken the lines for me. Yes, I can force the inflections if I read it
aloud, but it doesn't naturally flow (at least not in my lazy brain).
The Song of Hiawatha has been one of my favorite written works since
childhood. I would certainly like to think that Longfellow spent his
one-and-one-half years on the poem doing more than writing his story in
prose and simply breaking the sentences at every eighth silly-bobble,
ignoring any natural breaks due to punctuation or change of thought.
PICKY DAN
Donald D. Markstein
Hiawatha rhythm
Message 11 -
2006-07-05 at 18:57:35
I'll admit, looking at it, the first paragraph of my last message did
transpose a non-accented syllable from the end to the beginning, but it
still looks to me like it scans pretty well. Oh well, it's not important
if you don't see it the way I do. (By the way, about 30 years ago, I
wrote a whole page in a fanzine that way. It ended with the sentence "I
could write like this forever, but I think I'll rest my mind and purge
from it this noisome rhythm, purge from it this metered nuisance, that
will not allow me peace to read, write, talk or think without it."
Nobody caught a syllable out of place. Doesn't mean there necessarily
wasn't one, however.)
Elaine, thanks VERY much for the nice words about my work. You may be
interested that I've written a sequel to "King of the Bungaloos", the
plot of which is hinted at on the last page. David Gerstein assures me
it's on Gemstone's schedule, so you'll be seeing it soon (if you haven't
already). It's a little study on how different characters respond to the
same basic situation.
And speaking of David, he may be the guy who really did that Gilbert &
Sullivan story you like, but I've done them too. My big one wasn't
published, however, for reasons explained on the Web page where the
unfinished script was posted
(http://math.boisestate.edu/GaS/parodies/html/pinfeather.html).
Quack, Don
transpose a non-accented syllable from the end to the beginning, but it
still looks to me like it scans pretty well. Oh well, it's not important
if you don't see it the way I do. (By the way, about 30 years ago, I
wrote a whole page in a fanzine that way. It ended with the sentence "I
could write like this forever, but I think I'll rest my mind and purge
from it this noisome rhythm, purge from it this metered nuisance, that
will not allow me peace to read, write, talk or think without it."
Nobody caught a syllable out of place. Doesn't mean there necessarily
wasn't one, however.)
Elaine, thanks VERY much for the nice words about my work. You may be
interested that I've written a sequel to "King of the Bungaloos", the
plot of which is hinted at on the last page. David Gerstein assures me
it's on Gemstone's schedule, so you'll be seeing it soon (if you haven't
already). It's a little study on how different characters respond to the
same basic situation.
And speaking of David, he may be the guy who really did that Gilbert &
Sullivan story you like, but I've done them too. My big one wasn't
published, however, for reasons explained on the Web page where the
unfinished script was posted
(http://math.boisestate.edu/GaS/parodies/html/pinfeather.html).
Quack, Don
Marc Newman
Donald Markstein
Message 12 -
2006-07-05 at 19:26:42
>And while I'm writing to you, Don--here's a thank-you note for your work.
>
>
I'd like to jump in and thank Don for his wonderful Toonopedia reference
site -- http://www.toonopedia.com/ --. I was turned on to it by a
customer years ago and use it regularly. I've only been on this list a
short time so it was great to see a familiar name posting (great essay
by the way).
Marc Newman
www.HouseofComics.com
"Super-Selection of Silver and Bronze Age Comics"
>
>
I'd like to jump in and thank Don for his wonderful Toonopedia reference
site -- http://www.toonopedia.com/ --. I was turned on to it by a
customer years ago and use it regularly. I've only been on this list a
short time so it was great to see a familiar name posting (great essay
by the way).
Marc Newman
www.HouseofComics.com
"Super-Selection of Silver and Bronze Age Comics"
Donald D. Markstein
Toonopedia
Message 13 -
2006-07-07 at 03:58:24
> I'd like to jump in and thank Don for his wonderful Toonopedia
> reference site -- http://www.toonopedia.com/ --. I was turned on to
> it by a customer years ago and use it regularly. I've only been on
> this list a short time so it was great to see a familiar name posting
> (great essay by the way).
>
And than you, too, for the kind words, Marc. A plug for my Toonopedia is
always welcome.
Quack, Don
> reference site -- http://www.toonopedia.com/ --. I was turned on to
> it by a customer years ago and use it regularly. I've only been on
> this list a short time so it was great to see a familiar name posting
> (great essay by the way).
>
And than you, too, for the kind words, Marc. A plug for my Toonopedia is
always welcome.
Quack, Don
Cgeraci
Confusion?
Message 14 -
2006-07-07 at 18:40:20
Don Markstein never said he was writing poetry or anything for the ages--simply that it isn't that difficult to write with a regular rhythm. We use stresses all the time, and it just takes a little thought to arrange them in a pattern. It's simply an organization of sounds--art requires something more. Shakespeare was prolific in writing in blank verse (which is Hiawathan backwards, isn't it?), and in many ways it's easier to memorize that way. (Try forgetting your lines onstage and having to improvise in iambic pentameter. That's living, baby.) Not all of it is artistic--some of it is simply expository. And in private moments, he abandons it altogether as too formal.
As for breaking up the lines, try doing that to any piece of writing you have at hand--junk mail is usually great. You'll end up with some surprising "poetry." (Shakespeare had some fun with this in Quince's prologue speech--though it's probably easier to understand reading it than hearing it. I could find and post it if anyone is really interested.)
Or how about this bit of Shakespeare, cummings, and WCWilliams:
To subscribe
or unsubscribe
via the
World
Wide
Web,
visit
http:// naf sk.se/
mailman/
l is tin fo/d cml
or,
via email,
send a message
with subject
or body
'help'
to
dcml-request at nafsk.se
----- Original Message -----
From: dcml-request at nafsk.se
Date: Friday, July 7, 2006 6:15
Subject: DCML Digest, Vol 41, Issue 7
To: dcml at nafsk.se
> Send DCML mailing list submissions to
> dcml at nafsk.se
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> http://nafsk.se/mailman/listinfo/dcml
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> dcml-request at nafsk.se
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
> dcml-owner at nafsk.se
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of DCML digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Still confused.. (Dan Shane)
> 2. Toonopedia (Donald D. Markstein)
>
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2006 09:56:58 -0400
> From: "Dan Shane" <danshane at bellsouth.net>
> Subject: Still confused..
> To: <dcml at stp.lingfil.uu.se>
> Message-ID: <001101c6a03a$e268e3b0$a73aab10$@net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
>
>
> ELAINE RAMSHAW WROTE:
>
>
>
> >>>
>
> Dan, I can't read the first paragraph of Don's message in
> Hiawathan either;
> but the second I can.
>
>
>
> By the way, it isn't hard to
>
> Write in rhythm, and the Song of
>
> Hiawatha (Kalevala
>
> If you're European) is a-
>
> Mong the simplest. Just in case you
>
> Haven't noticed (or are used to
>
> Other ways of reading English)
>
> I've been using Hiawatha
>
> Rhythm this entire message. >>>
>
>
>
> AND I GRUMBLE:
>
>
>
> Sorry Elaine, but I have trouble buying the idea that one can
> claim a poetic
> metric is applied by simply breaking sentences (or syllables,
> for that
> matter!) wherever one wants. Such a pattern would mean
> every sentence in
> the English language is written in Longfellow's Song of Hiawatha
> meter as
> long as the paragraph's syllables are divisible by eight.
> That would seem
> to diminish the hard work Longfellow, Barks, and Rosa put into
> carefullyconstructing their phrases to achieve the sing-song
> rhythm that is so
> obvious to anyone who reads it.
>
>
>
> I don't wish to belittle Don Markstein's past creative works,
> but in this
> one instance I still cannot pick up the intended beat even after
> you have
> broken the lines for me. Yes, I can force the inflections
> if I read it
> aloud, but it doesn't naturally flow (at least not in my lazy brain).
>
>
>
> The Song of Hiawatha has been one of my favorite written works since
> childhood. I would certainly like to think that Longfellow
> spent his
> one-and-one-half years on the poem doing more than writing his
> story in
> prose and simply breaking the sentences at every eighth silly-bobble,
> ignoring any natural breaks due to punctuation or change of thought.
>
>
>
> PICKY DAN
>
>
As for breaking up the lines, try doing that to any piece of writing you have at hand--junk mail is usually great. You'll end up with some surprising "poetry." (Shakespeare had some fun with this in Quince's prologue speech--though it's probably easier to understand reading it than hearing it. I could find and post it if anyone is really interested.)
Or how about this bit of Shakespeare, cummings, and WCWilliams:
To subscribe
or unsubscribe
via the
World
Wide
Web,
visit
http:// naf sk.se/
mailman/
l is tin fo/d cml
or,
via email,
send a message
with subject
or body
'help'
to
dcml-request at nafsk.se
----- Original Message -----
From: dcml-request at nafsk.se
Date: Friday, July 7, 2006 6:15
Subject: DCML Digest, Vol 41, Issue 7
To: dcml at nafsk.se
> Send DCML mailing list submissions to
> dcml at nafsk.se
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> http://nafsk.se/mailman/listinfo/dcml
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> dcml-request at nafsk.se
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
> dcml-owner at nafsk.se
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of DCML digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Still confused.. (Dan Shane)
> 2. Toonopedia (Donald D. Markstein)
>
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2006 09:56:58 -0400
> From: "Dan Shane" <danshane at bellsouth.net>
> Subject: Still confused..
> To: <dcml at stp.lingfil.uu.se>
> Message-ID: <001101c6a03a$e268e3b0$a73aab10$@net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
>
>
> ELAINE RAMSHAW WROTE:
>
>
>
> >>>
>
> Dan, I can't read the first paragraph of Don's message in
> Hiawathan either;
> but the second I can.
>
>
>
> By the way, it isn't hard to
>
> Write in rhythm, and the Song of
>
> Hiawatha (Kalevala
>
> If you're European) is a-
>
> Mong the simplest. Just in case you
>
> Haven't noticed (or are used to
>
> Other ways of reading English)
>
> I've been using Hiawatha
>
> Rhythm this entire message. >>>
>
>
>
> AND I GRUMBLE:
>
>
>
> Sorry Elaine, but I have trouble buying the idea that one can
> claim a poetic
> metric is applied by simply breaking sentences (or syllables,
> for that
> matter!) wherever one wants. Such a pattern would mean
> every sentence in
> the English language is written in Longfellow's Song of Hiawatha
> meter as
> long as the paragraph's syllables are divisible by eight.
> That would seem
> to diminish the hard work Longfellow, Barks, and Rosa put into
> carefullyconstructing their phrases to achieve the sing-song
> rhythm that is so
> obvious to anyone who reads it.
>
>
>
> I don't wish to belittle Don Markstein's past creative works,
> but in this
> one instance I still cannot pick up the intended beat even after
> you have
> broken the lines for me. Yes, I can force the inflections
> if I read it
> aloud, but it doesn't naturally flow (at least not in my lazy brain).
>
>
>
> The Song of Hiawatha has been one of my favorite written works since
> childhood. I would certainly like to think that Longfellow
> spent his
> one-and-one-half years on the poem doing more than writing his
> story in
> prose and simply breaking the sentences at every eighth silly-bobble,
> ignoring any natural breaks due to punctuation or change of thought.
>
>
>
> PICKY DAN
>
>
Donald D. Markstein
Hiawatha rhythm
Message 15 -
2006-07-09 at 03:16:11
In NINE-teen-NINE-ty-NINE i WROTE an AR-ti-CLE a-BOUT this TOP-ic. I
have POS-ted IT where MEM-bers OF this LIST can TAKE a LOOK.
BY the WAY, it IS-n't HARD to WRITE in RHY-thm, AND "the SONG of
HI-a-WA-tha" ("KA-le-VA-la" IF you're EU-ro-PE-an) IS a-MONG the
SIM-plest. JUST in CASE you HAVE-n't NO-ticed (OR are USED to O-ther
WAYS of READ-ing EN-glish) I'VE been US-ing "HI-a-WA-tha" RHY-thm THIS
en-TI-re MESSage.
Of course, the syllables aren't as heavily accented as I've indicated,
but if you read it in a normal speaking voice, you'll see that they're
right where they should be. Like I said earlier, the first paragraph
would be better done with a non-accented syllable transposed from the
beginning to the end (Hiawatha starts with an accented one and each line
ends with a non-accented one), but geez, it's just a mailing list comment.
If you still can't see it, okay, I've got no quarrel with you. Lots of
people deny what's perfectly obvious to me.Off-list, I got a note from a
surprising source, which was doubly surprising in the vigor with which
the writer disagreed that I'd written two little paragraphs in meter. I
can't see it mattering that much.
cgeraci at insightbb.com (sorry, but I'm not seeing your name on the
message), you are absolutely correct about this not being poetry for the
ages. Writing in rhythm is purely a mechanical operation. You could
train a monkey to do it, if the monkey happened to be fluent in the
language. For poetry (for the ages or not), you need a lot more.
A writing acquaintance of mine, seeing a Bucky Bug script I'd written
(Bucky is written in meter AND RHYME) once remarked that for all the
different things he'd written, he'd never succeeded at poetry. I
vehemently denied that a Bucky Bug script is even remotely like poetry.
It's written in four-beat iambic verse, and it rhymes. It's designed to
amuse children. That's all.
Many years ago, when I was in CAPA-alpha (an amateur press alliance
devoted to comic books), Tony Isabella (now an Internet columnist) used
to justify his margins without adding spaces to the lines -- he'd
compose the words so they justified by themselves. I responded by
writing a normal-sounding comment to him, where you could read the
Secret Message by looking at the first letter of each line.
That's all mechanical stuff. When I was younger, I did it as mental
calisthenics, to hone my writing ability. Like keyboard exercises for
piano students -- and it bears the same relationship to poetry -- or any
kind of actual content -- as keyboard exercises bear to music.
Maybe I should go back to exercises, and learn more. Ad-libbing in
iambic pentameter -- yeah, I wouldn't mind being THAT good at it!
Now, have we discussed this topic to death yet?
Quack, Don
have POS-ted IT where MEM-bers OF this LIST can TAKE a LOOK.
BY the WAY, it IS-n't HARD to WRITE in RHY-thm, AND "the SONG of
HI-a-WA-tha" ("KA-le-VA-la" IF you're EU-ro-PE-an) IS a-MONG the
SIM-plest. JUST in CASE you HAVE-n't NO-ticed (OR are USED to O-ther
WAYS of READ-ing EN-glish) I'VE been US-ing "HI-a-WA-tha" RHY-thm THIS
en-TI-re MESSage.
Of course, the syllables aren't as heavily accented as I've indicated,
but if you read it in a normal speaking voice, you'll see that they're
right where they should be. Like I said earlier, the first paragraph
would be better done with a non-accented syllable transposed from the
beginning to the end (Hiawatha starts with an accented one and each line
ends with a non-accented one), but geez, it's just a mailing list comment.
If you still can't see it, okay, I've got no quarrel with you. Lots of
people deny what's perfectly obvious to me.Off-list, I got a note from a
surprising source, which was doubly surprising in the vigor with which
the writer disagreed that I'd written two little paragraphs in meter. I
can't see it mattering that much.
cgeraci at insightbb.com (sorry, but I'm not seeing your name on the
message), you are absolutely correct about this not being poetry for the
ages. Writing in rhythm is purely a mechanical operation. You could
train a monkey to do it, if the monkey happened to be fluent in the
language. For poetry (for the ages or not), you need a lot more.
A writing acquaintance of mine, seeing a Bucky Bug script I'd written
(Bucky is written in meter AND RHYME) once remarked that for all the
different things he'd written, he'd never succeeded at poetry. I
vehemently denied that a Bucky Bug script is even remotely like poetry.
It's written in four-beat iambic verse, and it rhymes. It's designed to
amuse children. That's all.
Many years ago, when I was in CAPA-alpha (an amateur press alliance
devoted to comic books), Tony Isabella (now an Internet columnist) used
to justify his margins without adding spaces to the lines -- he'd
compose the words so they justified by themselves. I responded by
writing a normal-sounding comment to him, where you could read the
Secret Message by looking at the first letter of each line.
That's all mechanical stuff. When I was younger, I did it as mental
calisthenics, to hone my writing ability. Like keyboard exercises for
piano students -- and it bears the same relationship to poetry -- or any
kind of actual content -- as keyboard exercises bear to music.
Maybe I should go back to exercises, and learn more. Ad-libbing in
iambic pentameter -- yeah, I wouldn't mind being THAT good at it!
Now, have we discussed this topic to death yet?
Quack, Don