Quote from user: Lars JensenAnd as far as I remember Rumpus doesn't contradict Don Rosa's Duck family tree. I think it has to do with Fergus having had two marriages, but I don't remember the details.
You're essentially right.
I wrote a little about the relationship for Gemstone's house newsletter back in the day.
Author
Topic: Arriva Paperetta Yè-Yè
(76 messages)
Ramapith
Arriva Paperetta Yè-Yè
Message 31 -
2011-07-03 at 04:41:12
Coolwater
Arriva Paperetta Yè-Yè
Message 32 -
2011-07-03 at 12:36:15
Quote from user: Lars JensenIt has been shown in many stories that Donald and Scrooge are anthropomorphic ducks. One example: in Carl Barks's "That's No Fable", Donald at one point tries to take a swim in the Fountain of Youth. Scrooge warns him that if he does so the water will turn him "back into an egg". Another example: in Marco Rota's "Buon compleanno, Paperino!" we see Donald Duck hatch from an egg.
That's an interesting point what you mention. I have also always noticed that references to an original "duckness" of the Ducks are relatively clear and present in the English originals of Carl Barks. In the German translations, however, this aspect is almost completely switched off. Here, the Ducks virtually never speak of themselves as "ducks" but always as "humans" (Menschen). Here, Scrooge McDuck is never called the" richest duck" but always the "richest man" in the world. In "That's No Fable", Scrooge warns Donald that he would turn in a "little boy". The Ducks also do not use duck-like screams like "Quack!" or "Wak!" here but always proper human screams.
References to the duckness of the Ducks can only be found then when the drawings or the story leave no other chance, as for instance in the memorable scene in "The Gilded Man" where Donald and the nephews are given the creeps in the temple because they see stuffed ducks on a shelf. Or of course in that Marco Rota story.
I wonder how this is handled in other languages. Is that consequent humanisation of the Ducks a German Sonderweg?
That's an interesting point what you mention. I have also always noticed that references to an original "duckness" of the Ducks are relatively clear and present in the English originals of Carl Barks. In the German translations, however, this aspect is almost completely switched off. Here, the Ducks virtually never speak of themselves as "ducks" but always as "humans" (Menschen). Here, Scrooge McDuck is never called the" richest duck" but always the "richest man" in the world. In "That's No Fable", Scrooge warns Donald that he would turn in a "little boy". The Ducks also do not use duck-like screams like "Quack!" or "Wak!" here but always proper human screams.
References to the duckness of the Ducks can only be found then when the drawings or the story leave no other chance, as for instance in the memorable scene in "The Gilded Man" where Donald and the nephews are given the creeps in the temple because they see stuffed ducks on a shelf. Or of course in that Marco Rota story.
I wonder how this is handled in other languages. Is that consequent humanisation of the Ducks a German Sonderweg?
Deyanmegara
Arriva Paperetta Yè-Yè
Message 33 -
2011-07-03 at 13:28:29
Quote from user: CoolwaterI wonder how this is handled in other languages. Is that consequent humanisation of the Ducks a German Sonderweg?
It depends. Many stories don't mention them being ducks at all (even in the original text), so it remains so in our translations. Scrooge is, however, often called "???-????Ñ???Ñ? ??Ñ??? ?? ???Ñ??" ("The richest drake in the world"). Because of some strange error the Junior Woodchucks are translated as "Ð?????Ñ?? ??Ñ??Ñ??" ("The little ducklings"). In old issues they were called "Ð?????Ñ?? ??Ñ???Ñ??" (the literal translation!) instead. Donald often mentions that he is a duck, particularly in some exclamations. Scrooge does so as well. Can't remeber about Daisy right now.
So, as you can see, plenty of "duck"/"drake" references around here. I'm not sure why the Germans remove them. Some fear that ducks wouldn't be taken seriously?!
P.S. Using caps in two places, because the forum jumbles up some cyrillic letters.
It depends. Many stories don't mention them being ducks at all (even in the original text), so it remains so in our translations. Scrooge is, however, often called "???-????Ñ???Ñ? ??Ñ??? ?? ???Ñ??" ("The richest drake in the world"). Because of some strange error the Junior Woodchucks are translated as "Ð?????Ñ?? ??Ñ??Ñ??" ("The little ducklings"). In old issues they were called "Ð?????Ñ?? ??Ñ???Ñ??" (the literal translation!) instead. Donald often mentions that he is a duck, particularly in some exclamations. Scrooge does so as well. Can't remeber about Daisy right now.
So, as you can see, plenty of "duck"/"drake" references around here. I'm not sure why the Germans remove them. Some fear that ducks wouldn't be taken seriously?!
P.S. Using caps in two places, because the forum jumbles up some cyrillic letters.
Coolwater
Arriva Paperetta Yè-Yè
Message 34 -
2011-07-03 at 14:15:51
Quote from user: deyanmegaraSo, as you can see, plenty of "duck"/"drake" references around here. I'm not sure why the Germans remove them. Some fear that ducks wouldn't be taken seriously?!
"Drake" also appears in the German translations (Erpel), but only as last name of some of the duck-likes. Never in the sense that one of them would call himself a "drake" or would be called one by somebody else.
The course for that manner of speaking in the German Disney comics was set by the first translator who translated virtually all stories in the first twenty years. And the thing simply was kept since then.
Couldn't say the exact reason why she did so. I guess she wanted the characters to appear as much as humans as possible and she wanted them to speak as much about themselves as people in our world speak about themselves, so that the readers could really identify with the characters. She simply didn't see animals in them but humans.
"Drake" also appears in the German translations (Erpel), but only as last name of some of the duck-likes. Never in the sense that one of them would call himself a "drake" or would be called one by somebody else.
The course for that manner of speaking in the German Disney comics was set by the first translator who translated virtually all stories in the first twenty years. And the thing simply was kept since then.
Couldn't say the exact reason why she did so. I guess she wanted the characters to appear as much as humans as possible and she wanted them to speak as much about themselves as people in our world speak about themselves, so that the readers could really identify with the characters. She simply didn't see animals in them but humans.
Baar Baar Jinx
Arriva Paperetta Yè-Yè
Message 35 -
2011-07-03 at 15:09:20
Quote from user: Lars JensenQuote from user: Baar Baar JinxAs an aside, is there an unspoken belief that this character is also Scrooge's illegitimate granddaughter?
Only amongst fans who want her to fit into the popular understanding of the Don Rosa Scrooge-Goldie relationship, which generally seems to be viewed as "Scrooge and Goldie feel too strongly about each other to ever consider a relationship with anyone else."
Personally, I think making Dickie Scrooge's granddaughter is a terrible idea. Why try to fit Dickie Duck into the Rosa universe when we don't know whether Don even likes the character? I think it would be far better to either leave Dickie out of Rosa canon... or simply not worry about exactly how she fits in.
You make a valid point. It's always struck me as very unrealistic how most fictional works have lovers separated by circumstances and meet up again several years later, only to find each other still unattached and pining for the other. As a variation on this theme, when the protagonist meets his/her love interest in a movie/book and is instantly attracted, the love interest is conveniently single and available. In real life, there would likely be a divorce or two and several children on one or both sides along the way. It seems very likely Goldie might have married, had kids and grandkids, all without Scrooge. Such concepts are likely too complex for a Disney universe though (where for the most part, we have nephews and nieces rather than direct offspring).
Again, I have only read descriptions of this story and not the story itself, but it looks like Goldie basically makes Scrooge feel he is responsible for Dickie, and he steps up to the plate by taking care of her education. Why would Glodie ask this of him, and why would he agree, if Dickie was unrelated to him?
However, I do agree that fitting Dickie Duck into the Rosa universe is tricky and involves a lot of contorting. I get the feeling Rosa would despise her, anyway.
Quote from user: ramapithYou're essentially right. I wrote a little about the relationship for Gemstone's house newsletter back in the day.
Yes, there is an attempt to explain Rumpus' relationship to Scrooge through a "brief marriage" Fergus had with a sister of Downy and Vera O'Drake (not Vera herself, to whom Rumpus' mother addressed her letter) in Van Horn's "Secrets". Again, however, realistically speaking, this seems a little difficult to wrap one's head around. When did this supposed marriage take place? Before Fergus married Downy? That would make Rumpus older than Scrooge, but he's generally described as a younger brother (and the aforementioned letter makes reference to Scrooge in a negative way, suggesting Scrooge was already at least prepubescent by the time Rumpus was born). Then did the marriage take place after the death of Downy? If so, why was there no mention of it when Scrooge returned to Scotland in the "Life and Times" series? Also, why was Scrooge so eager to hide the relationship? And if there really was a brief marriage between Fergus and Rumpus' mother, how realistic is it that Rumpus would have absolutely no knowledge at all about it until "Secrets"? The circumstances seem to point towards an illegitimacy, which would be far easier to explain than a "brief marriage". Not that such a thing could be openly discussed in a kid-friendly Disney universe, of course.
I understand that this is an attempt to fit Rumpus into the Rosa universe and there is no need to do that necessarily, but Van Horn's use of the Rosa-established McDuck family background in "Secrets" suggests that that is what he was trying to do.
This does raise some interesting legal questions, though. Let's assume Rumpus is indeed Scrooge's half-brother, legitimate or otherwise. Does he have any claim to Scrooge's fortune, which is self-made? Similarly, if we were to assume that Dickie Duck was indeed Scrooge's illegitimate granddaughter, would she stand to inherit all his money? Does anyone who has a legal background have an idea about this?
Only amongst fans who want her to fit into the popular understanding of the Don Rosa Scrooge-Goldie relationship, which generally seems to be viewed as "Scrooge and Goldie feel too strongly about each other to ever consider a relationship with anyone else."
Personally, I think making Dickie Scrooge's granddaughter is a terrible idea. Why try to fit Dickie Duck into the Rosa universe when we don't know whether Don even likes the character? I think it would be far better to either leave Dickie out of Rosa canon... or simply not worry about exactly how she fits in.
You make a valid point. It's always struck me as very unrealistic how most fictional works have lovers separated by circumstances and meet up again several years later, only to find each other still unattached and pining for the other. As a variation on this theme, when the protagonist meets his/her love interest in a movie/book and is instantly attracted, the love interest is conveniently single and available. In real life, there would likely be a divorce or two and several children on one or both sides along the way. It seems very likely Goldie might have married, had kids and grandkids, all without Scrooge. Such concepts are likely too complex for a Disney universe though (where for the most part, we have nephews and nieces rather than direct offspring).
Again, I have only read descriptions of this story and not the story itself, but it looks like Goldie basically makes Scrooge feel he is responsible for Dickie, and he steps up to the plate by taking care of her education. Why would Glodie ask this of him, and why would he agree, if Dickie was unrelated to him?
However, I do agree that fitting Dickie Duck into the Rosa universe is tricky and involves a lot of contorting. I get the feeling Rosa would despise her, anyway.
Quote from user: ramapithYou're essentially right. I wrote a little about the relationship for Gemstone's house newsletter back in the day.
Yes, there is an attempt to explain Rumpus' relationship to Scrooge through a "brief marriage" Fergus had with a sister of Downy and Vera O'Drake (not Vera herself, to whom Rumpus' mother addressed her letter) in Van Horn's "Secrets". Again, however, realistically speaking, this seems a little difficult to wrap one's head around. When did this supposed marriage take place? Before Fergus married Downy? That would make Rumpus older than Scrooge, but he's generally described as a younger brother (and the aforementioned letter makes reference to Scrooge in a negative way, suggesting Scrooge was already at least prepubescent by the time Rumpus was born). Then did the marriage take place after the death of Downy? If so, why was there no mention of it when Scrooge returned to Scotland in the "Life and Times" series? Also, why was Scrooge so eager to hide the relationship? And if there really was a brief marriage between Fergus and Rumpus' mother, how realistic is it that Rumpus would have absolutely no knowledge at all about it until "Secrets"? The circumstances seem to point towards an illegitimacy, which would be far easier to explain than a "brief marriage". Not that such a thing could be openly discussed in a kid-friendly Disney universe, of course.
I understand that this is an attempt to fit Rumpus into the Rosa universe and there is no need to do that necessarily, but Van Horn's use of the Rosa-established McDuck family background in "Secrets" suggests that that is what he was trying to do.
This does raise some interesting legal questions, though. Let's assume Rumpus is indeed Scrooge's half-brother, legitimate or otherwise. Does he have any claim to Scrooge's fortune, which is self-made? Similarly, if we were to assume that Dickie Duck was indeed Scrooge's illegitimate granddaughter, would she stand to inherit all his money? Does anyone who has a legal background have an idea about this?
GeoX
Arriva Paperetta Yè-Yè
Message 36 -
2011-07-03 at 16:59:10
It's fun just as an academic exercise to try to reconcile the worlds of different duck artists with wildly varying worldviews and philosophies, but it's no surprise that it doesn't work terribly well. I'm actually kind of amazed that Rosa was able to create a family tree as plausible as the one he did.
Quote from user: Baar Baar JinxThis does raise some interesting legal questions, though. Let's assume Rumpus is indeed Scrooge's half-brother, legitimate or otherwise. Does he have any claim to Scrooge's fortune, which is self-made?
Van Horn actually wrote a story on this very topic, you may recall. Eye Eh En Eh El, but the idea seems absurd on the face of it to me. Though it seems conceivable that Dickie could inherit his money unless he specified otherwise.
Quote from user: Baar Baar JinxThis does raise some interesting legal questions, though. Let's assume Rumpus is indeed Scrooge's half-brother, legitimate or otherwise. Does he have any claim to Scrooge's fortune, which is self-made?
Van Horn actually wrote a story on this very topic, you may recall. Eye Eh En Eh El, but the idea seems absurd on the face of it to me. Though it seems conceivable that Dickie could inherit his money unless he specified otherwise.
Matilda
Arriva Paperetta Yè-Yè
Message 37 -
2011-07-05 at 01:47:29
Free association to the name "Dickie Duck": it reminds me of "Ducky Bird," the young woman (you can see where I land, in the "Are they ducks or humans who happen to look like ducks?" debate) in Barks' "Mystery of the Ghost Town Railroad." I have long wished that Barks had come up with a better name for this character, since she and her grandmother, Katie Mallard (a fine name), are two of the best female characters he ever created. Ducky is strong and competent and even gets to save the day on the last page! She also has a similarity to Dickie Duck as you describe her, because Ducky Bird is the granddaughter of a woman Scrooge knew and liked/admired (no romance implied here) in the old days ("Hashknife Kate!....By the gollies, it's good to see you!"). As others have observed, Barks' best female characters--the ones that transcend the feminine stereotypes folks like Daisy are stuck in--are women of the frontier: Goldie, Grandma Duck (he didn't create Grandma, but he treated her with respect).
Oh, and on the question of how we get "Dick" from "Richard"--in English, sometimes a new nickname for name X is developed by taking an existing nickname for name X and changing the first letter: e.g. Margaret to Meg to Peg.
Oh, and on the question of how we get "Dick" from "Richard"--in English, sometimes a new nickname for name X is developed by taking an existing nickname for name X and changing the first letter: e.g. Margaret to Meg to Peg.
Dutch Duckfan Down Under
Arriva Paperetta Yè-Yè
Message 38 -
2011-07-05 at 13:09:00
Quote from user: MatildaOh, and on the question of how we get "Dick" from "Richard"--in English, sometimes a new nickname for name X is developed by taking an existing nickname for name X and changing the first letter: e.g. Margaret to Meg to Peg.
Two nice examples of this are two song writers Disney hired a long time ago: Dick and Bob Sherman. Their names are Richard and Robert.
Two nice examples of this are two song writers Disney hired a long time ago: Dick and Bob Sherman. Their names are Richard and Robert.
David K
Arriva Paperetta Yè-Yè
Message 39 -
2011-07-05 at 13:36:30
Haha, I only knew them as "The Sherman Brothers".
Baar Baar Jinx
Arriva Paperetta Yè-Yè
Message 40 -
2011-07-05 at 14:05:43
Quote from user: MatildaFree association to the name "Dickie Duck": it reminds me of "Ducky Bird," the young woman (you can see where I land, in the "Are they ducks or humans who happen to look like ducks?" debate) in Barks' "Mystery of the Ghost Town Railroad." I have long wished that Barks had come up with a better name for this character, since she and her grandmother, Katie Mallard (a fine name), are two of the best female characters he ever created. Ducky is strong and competent and even gets to save the day on the last page! She also has a similarity to Dickie Duck as you describe her, because Ducky Bird is the granddaughter of a woman Scrooge knew and liked/admired (no romance implied here) in the old days ("Hashknife Kate!....By the gollies, it's good to see you!"). As others have observed, Barks' best female characters--the ones that transcend the feminine stereotypes folks like Daisy are stuck in--are women of the frontier: Goldie, Grandma Duck (he didn't create Grandma, but he treated her with respect).
I guess it might be more palatable if "Ducky" were a dimunitive form of a longer name (like Duckina or Duckigail or something similar? I'm sure other people can come up with something better). I have to admit that DuckTales came up with some interesting names for their original characters (Webbigail, Mrs. Beakley, Duckworth).
Kate and Ducky are very intriguing characters indeed, and I'm surprised Rosa never used them. You'd think he'd especially have Kate appear in "Life and Times". Has he ever commented on this?
I guess it might be more palatable if "Ducky" were a dimunitive form of a longer name (like Duckina or Duckigail or something similar? I'm sure other people can come up with something better). I have to admit that DuckTales came up with some interesting names for their original characters (Webbigail, Mrs. Beakley, Duckworth).
Kate and Ducky are very intriguing characters indeed, and I'm surprised Rosa never used them. You'd think he'd especially have Kate appear in "Life and Times". Has he ever commented on this?
David K
Arriva Paperetta Yè-Yè
Message 41 -
2011-07-05 at 14:51:00
He DID use her. At least, this character has the same haircut and the same glasses etc.
http://i832.photobucket.com/albums/zz246/DGC019/asd.jpg
http://i832.photobucket.com/albums/zz246/DGC019/asd.jpg
Matilda
Arriva Paperetta Yè-Yè
Message 42 -
2011-07-05 at 15:55:00
Ooh, thanks much for pointing out Hashknife Kate in Rosa's story--which story is it?
David K
Arriva Paperetta Yè-Yè
Message 43 -
2011-07-05 at 16:12:43
The Empire-Builder from Calisota. But it's in a flashback and Kate only appears in that ONE panel. Rosa didn't really use her, I think he could have done so much more with the character.
Matilda
Arriva Paperetta Yè-Yè
Message 44 -
2011-07-05 at 19:28:14
Oh, in a flashback--that's why I couldn't find the scene just now by looking in stories set when Scrooge looked as he does in the panel. In his commentary Rosa says that that segment is based on the episode from Scrooge's past mentioned in "Mystery of the Ghost Town Railroad," but even so I hadn't noticed that he put a younger version of Kate in the picture. I'm charmed to find out that Rosa did include her in L&T, even if only as a cameo.
Sim
Arriva Paperetta Yè-Yè
Message 45 -
2011-07-11 at 09:47:44
Quote from user: David KopsWhy are there music notes?
http://i832.photobucket.com/albums/zz246/DGC019/hrphp.jpg
Dickie sings. ;)
Ye-Ye is a kind of pop music.
http://i832.photobucket.com/albums/zz246/DGC019/hrphp.jpg
Dickie sings. ;)
Ye-Ye is a kind of pop music.