Keskustelujen arkisto

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inet95 at mosquito.frcc.ccoes.edu

Digests 830 - 835:

Hmmm... it's been one month since I last wrote to the list! I'll have
to try to be a bit more regular.

DWIGHT-832:

(on translations)

>In theory you could ignore the original text entirely
>and write a whole new story based on the artwork. I don't quite

GASP! :-)

>agree with this, since I think the translator should deliver a
>close approximation of the original, at least, but the bottom
>line is the average American Disney reader probably doesn't care if
>a story is satirizing Italian talk show hosts or is making visual
>Dutch puns.

>The story has to make sense and stand on its own as
>if it were written in English to begin with.

I agree with this last sentence -- if a translation becomes so
cerebral that the story is no longer fun in the target language, then
the translation is a failure, at least in comics.

I'm sad to hear you say what you say in the previous sentence about
"the average American Disney reader". I guess it all depends on
whether we are talking about no-name filler stories, where what you
say might not be too bad, or about stories by someone who is
recognised as a cult-author by his fans, like Don by most if not all
the readers of this list. I'm sure that non-English readers of Don's
stories, when they read something from him in their own language,
often get curious about what that specific balloon said in the
original...

So, maybe the average reader doesn't care; but the reader who loves
and treasures a story WILL definitely care, and will be grateful to
the translator who puts in the craft to render the story faithfully
and accurately while preserving liveliness in the target language.

I agree with you, as I said myself earlier on, that non-Disney comics
like Asterix (and Achille Talon even more so) are much more of a
challenge in that a greater proportion of their vis comica comes out
of word play, funny names and other "low level" (i.e. hard to
translate) linguistic devices.

It must also be said that, with the two-step approach adopted by
Egmont which you explained to me in an earlier message (author writes
in language A, translator translates into English, subsidiaries'
translators retranslate into languages B1...Bn) it becomes practically
infeasible for the original A-language author to put any word play
into his work and hope that it will come through. Depending on what
the first (A to E) translator does, the second translator, who is
responsible for the E to Bi version, may NOT EVEN SEE the pun in his E
source, even if he's willing to go to great lengths to preserve any
that he finds. To take your "tu/vous" example, the A -> E translation
would make this gag disappear and then it would be gone forever, even
if some of the Bi languages had the distinction between formal and
informal "you" which English doesn't have.

>names and phrasings. And not everything translates exactly. A key
>moment in a story might be when a character stops calling another
>character "vous" and starts using "tu." English doesn't have the
>formal and informal forms of "you." The worst, though, are the

DAVID-832:

> That's right. They publish their own lineup of Disney comics:
>MICKEY AND FRIENDS, LITTLE MERMAID (Egmont TLM stories as in the
>German monthly), and DISNEY AND ME (a very childish mixture of text
>stories and Italian one- and two-page gags). These comics are not
>very good or successful IMHO, although the MM is the only English
>source for a lot of Egmont weekly material.

I've bought a few "Mickey and Friends" since your message (I knew it
existed and got a couple of issues when I arrived here but it didn't
look too exciting) and I'm afraid I still haven't found much I like in
it. Perhaps they don't run the best of the Egmont production, or maybe
my sampling base is still too small. I tried to look up the story
codes in the database through Per's WWW search form but didn't find
any. Maybe I'll ask the list to identify the authors of some of them
for me.

I noted your self-corrections on the CBL business. Let's then hope
that whoever-it-is at Disney decides to grant them a licence to
reprint the hardback CBL again!

MIKE-833:
>As some of you might or might not remember, I decided to become a
>Disney comics writer and I've got three stories finished

Best of luck! Always good when a true comics lover becomes involved
with the production of new stories...

HARRY-833:
>I have a new theory. Well, it's not a theory, but a fact. Scrooge
>McDuck is the father of Huey, Dewey and Louie! Noone else can be, so it
>must be him. I have researched it. They call him uncle all the time,
>but that is no evidence. And in Farbackistan HDL call Scrooge "pappa",
>which means "father". The Farbackistani word for uncle is also "pappa",
>but I decided to ignore that.

ROFLASC! That sounds like an appropriate response...

To Jacob:

much as I am in favour of research and philological comparison on
Disney comics characters, I think that trying to prove that Ludwig is
HDL's father is a bit far-fetched. Because it is you who propose this,
the correct scientific behaviour would be, I think, for you to present
irrefutable evidence that LvD was introduced as HDL's father,
preferably by LvD's original creator (who was it, by the way? I'd be
interested to know.) But I think it is not sufficient to just say that
there aren't any facts that contradict your hypothesis to claim it as
valid. Besides, the simplest fact that contradicts it is, for me, the
fact that HDL never behave as if LvD were their father.

From a more general perspective, my view is that we should not try to
explain everything at all costs; or, in other words, to find a
"mathematical closure" of the world of the Disney characters. Ok, so
for some of them we don't know their parents. Some readers may be
terribly upset by this, while others may not bat an eyelash. But I
think it would be wrong for those in the first group to try to find
these parents at all costs. After all, the set of characters that
appear in the cast is finite and there are always going to be
relatives that are not talked about. Who are the parents of Jennifer
(Marty McFly's girlfriend) in the movie "Back to the Future"? We don't
know, they're never mentioned, they're not part of the cast. They are
irrelevant to the story. Would you find this a problem? I don't...

KNUT-835:
>>pirate who breaks gold coins in two with his sword; or the one with the
>>"trombe di Eustachio" (Eustachian tubes, but also trumpets).

>Do you mean the one where U$'s money gets "sick" and he takes them out for a
"walk" in those huge baskets?

No, the one you mentioned is (I believe) "Zio Paperone e la febbre
dell'oro" (fms/disney/references 001).

NOTE: to take advantage of what technology offers us :-), and because
I believe that this or something like this is the best possible way of
discussing comics, from now on I'll try to put up graphical
references, when relevant, on my web server. Point your browser to
http://www.cam-orl.co.uk/(J~(Bfms/disney/references and you'll be able to
see the pictures I'm talking about. To make this work as scientific
and generally useful as possible, I'll try to always include complete
bibliographical references to the first publication of the stories
shown. Perhaps Per will see it fit to add a pointer to this page
among the Disney-Comics pages.

NOTE ABOUT THE NOTE ;-) In an earlier message to Don I described the
scanner which I use for this job and said it produced pictures of very
good quality; note of course that the ones you'll find on my web page
are of much lower quality than the maximum possible! It would
otherwise take ages to download them. So take these pictures for what
they are -- visual clues and reminders to help you find your own
translation of the story -- and not as an indication of what a
"consumer grade" scanner can do.

Back to "Zio Paperone e la febbre dell'oro". First published in TL 809
(1971), written by Rodolfo Cimino and drawn by Massimo De Vita. If the
DD&CO you mention are, like in many other countries, complete reprints
of the booklets from the Classici di Walt Disney series, then you may
have it in the translation of CWD 63 (1975) (fms/disney/references
002), which contains mostly Paperinik stories. I personally find that
story rather good, and I liked the idea of a "psycho-somatic
transfert" between $crooge and his money, but you say you didn't; oh
well, everyone has different tastes.

>But come to think of it, I think there are some more
>italian stories with
>ear-stuff in one form or the other. Which one do you mean?

The one I meant was "Zio Paperone e le trombe d'Eustachio", TL 748
(1970), script by Rodolfo Cimino, art by Giorgio Bordini
(fms/disney/references 003), which is reprinted in CWD 58 "Paperone il
magnifico" (1974) (fms/disney/references 004). In this one, which of
course I also like a lot otherwise I wouldn't have quoted it in the
first place as an example of a good Bordini story, Uncle Scrooge
dissects lots of trumpets from all over the world in the hope of
finding the map to a priceless black pearl.

The first one I mentioned, the one about the pirate, is instead "Zio
Paperone e il pirata Spack Doblon", TL 701 (1969), again by
Cimino/Bordini. (I suppose I already said some time ago that Cimino is
one of my favourite writers...) I'm sure I have a reprint of it that I
could scan, but I can't find it right now. I used to have the original
comic (when it came out I was a 3-year-old kid) and I distinctly
remember having this incomplete comic around for years and years: the
cover and some of the first few pages had fallen off early on and I
always wondered what the missing part of the story said. Then, some
day, I got a reprint and I could re-read the story... what a joy!
Maybe it's also because of that that I like it so much: when I re-read
it in its entirety, it was like meeting an old friend again; maybe
someone else, who hadn't had this same experience, wouldn't like it as
much. Anyway, the story was about a pirate who had an irresistible
urge to break doubloons in two with his sword, which of course upset
Scrooge quite a bit since some of the doubloons were his. I'll put up
a picture (fms/disney/references 005) if and when I find it.

>>> b) space-opera (*VERY* unscientific)
>>What are those? Do you think this is a complete genre? Can you give me a
>>few examples?

>There are lots of those. One line has MM and Goofy rescuing some >people on a
>far away planet, Goofy falling in love with the princess (and vice >versa!).

Could you be more specific? I still don't see which "genre" of stories
you two refer to. A story that fits your last description is the (IMHO
excellent) recent Star Wars spoof drawn by Massimo De Vita, but I
really can't see you slagging this one off! I personally rate it in
the same class as the Tolkien-like trilogy. De Vita, besides being a
top-notch artist, is one of the few Disney authors who really
understands Goofy and can make the most of him, not just as Mickey's
silly helper but as a complex and mature character who wins not
because he's clever but because of his pure, absent-minded, almost
poetic innocence. The story I'm talking of here is "Topolino e i
signori della galassia", TL 1846 - 1849 (1991), script by Giorgio
Pezzin / Manuela Marinato, art by Massimo De Vita
(fms/disney/references 006). Besides, while it is true that this
story had a precursor in another great story by the same authors, I
would hardly define these two stories as a complete "space opera
genre" unless you have many more stories in mind. So I'm still
wondering what else you were referring to.

>> * Fantasy
>> This was started by a wonderful trilogy (Trilogia della spada di
>> ghiaccio) by Massimo De Vita in the 80s
>> and later became inflation-ridden with inferior stories by
>>others like Ubezio.
>
>Do you mean that Tolkien-like trilogy with this plate and spoon as means of
>transport? That is IMHO one of the _really_ good stories that have been in
>DD&CO. pocket books (together with the one Barks story, of course!)!

Yes, that's the one. The trilogy is one of the best works of Massimo
De Vita and one of the very few for which he authored the script. The
first story of the trilogy appeared near Christmas 1982: "Topolino e
la spada di ghiaccio", TL 1411 - 1413. After one year, as the
Christmas gift for 1983, we had "Topolino e il torneo dell'Argaar", TL
1464 - 1465 (fms/disney/references 007). And finally, for Christmas
1984, the closing story of the trilogy, "Topolino e il ritorno del
principe delle nebbie", where the evil mask is destroyed and the
dimensional vector (the plate) is left in Argaar, to prevent Mickey
and Goofy from having to come back again. This trilogy was reprinted
in several occasions. Christmas 1989 saw a CWD-format special edition,
"Trilogia della spada di ghiaccio" (no sequence number), with a golden
cover (fms/disney/references 008) (beware: the golden cover didn't
come out at all in the scan) which reprinted just these three
stories. A hard-bound version of the same was later produced as a
giveaway for subscribers.

Massimo De Vita was asked many times to follow up the hugely
successful trilogy with some more episodes, but he refused to. The
Yellow Book quotes him as saying "I've been asked for more stories
like these from the editorial office. But fantasy is now a bit
overworked and I don't particularly feel like continuing." It took
him almost ten years to give in: but the wait was worth it. In 1993 he
finally produced "Topolino e la bella addormentata nel cosmo", TL 1936
- 1937, script co-authored with Fabio Michelini (fms/disney/references
009). In keeping with his feeling that the fantasy genre had been
already over-exploited, he added several witty and enjoyable (I would
say Jacovitti-style) self-ironical references. For example, on hearing
that the evil mask is still exerting a negative influence, Goofy
"jumps up one level" and complains about the lack of new ideas from
script writers...

>Let me also try to make a suggestion as to why it might be interesting to
>sort this out properly. If one by means of genre can find out who wrote/drew
>specific stories, it would very much help in educating someone like myself
>about who did what italian story.

I'm in favour of your idea but I am against a categorisation by genre,
because it leads to hasty generalisations, which can only be
superficial. The only way to appreciate new "strains" of the comics we
love is through knowledge. All hedgehogs look the same to you unless
you know some hedgehogs well enough to call them by name. Similarly,
all Brazilian Disney comics (for example) may look the same to you
until you start recognising the various authors. To see how bad the
effect of a hasty generalisation can be, just take this remark from
Mike, on which I make no comment:

[from Mike-833:]
>> Modern Italian Disney is often:
>> a) socio-realistic (somewhat italocentric)
>> b) space-opera (*VERY* unscientific)
>> c) time-travel (MM and prof. Einmug)
>> d) ethnographical (Wild West, Backwardistan)
>> e) parodic (world litterature classics)
>
> Those are Italian?! Yack! I hate them! The science fiction with
>little fiction and even less science. The idiot time-travel stories
>where they go to the past after a pizza receipt. All those yucky
>stories with a plot worse than world should ever know!-( If I don't
>get any stories published by Egmont, I know where to send them...:)

What I instead think is valuable is to have people who are
knowledgeable in one field guide their peers through that field,
highlighting the most interesting authors and stories. That's why, not
long ago, I asked Harry to post his list of preferred Dutch authors,
which he did. I shall endeavour to do my best in that direction for
what I know of the Italian production. This "references" page is a
small contribution; my Scarpa page is another. I'm sure that many
others will do similarly, with or without graphics, for the authors
they know best. This list brings together many of the most dedicated
Disney comics lovers in the world and we should tap each other's
expertise to explore the parts of the Disney universe that we don't
know yet. If I just looked at the few D-stories I've seen so far in
"Mickey and Friends" I should conclude that Egmont produces
rubbish. Do you think it's fair? I certainly don't! That's why I try
as hard as I can to stop any attempt at quick generalisation. Instead,
I look forward to the day when some dedicated D-story connaisseur will
point me to the best of the D production, preferably with some
explanatory commentaries. Then I may well disagree on the aesthetic
judgment on these stories, but at least I'll be evaluating the good
stuff, not just the noise (of which there is a lot in _any_ Disney
production outfit).

I often speak enthusiastically about Italian comics I know, but note
that I never praise them all indistinctly. Of course there are a lot
(a majority) of stories and/or authors that are not very interesting;
but I talk about the ones I like, about the good ones, about the ones
that are worth talking about! So that whoever hasn't read them gets a
pointer to a goodie.

To sum it up, I agree with your basic idea; I only object to the
categorisation. I'm all in favour of us giving each other "guided
tours" on the comics we like.

HARRY-835:
(about the new version of your database)
...Of course your database is one of the best expressions of what I
described above as my ideal -- us educating each other on the various
galaxies in the Disney comics universe. Well done!

If I may forward a suggestion, I'd like the database to be also
available as a big single-file archive (tar, zip or whatever you
like). I see the usefulness of being able to get a specific file only,
especially given the size of the whole thing, but I for one would like
to be able to refer to various parts of it without notice
(i.e. without having to dial up and connect to Per's site first), and
so I'd like to keep a complete copy on the local disc. Recursively
navigating all the subdirectories with FTP is a real pain...

Frank (filologo disneyano)

PS: I'm still hopelessly behind with digests... I'll have to write
less next time or I'll never catch up!

Don-

Are there any upcoming US conventions you'll be at? Any plans to go to any of
the big cons (like San Diego) next year? It would be nice if I could be one of
the lucky 10 people a day and get one of the "full-color finished
illustrations" you talked about in Digest #854. I have this big blank spot on
my wall....

--
--Steve Crooks 103047.1234 at compuserve.com
27-NOV-95 8:46 am

FRANK:

It nice to get to know the names of some of the best Italian Disney artists.

The "Star Wars spoof drawn by Massimo De Vita" is one of my favourite stories,
and the stories from Argaar are also really good.

The Egmont stories does in general not seem very good, but there are some
exceptions. I like most of the stories in the "Mickey Mysterier" (MM), and from
time to time, a good story shows up in a "Anders And & Co." (DD). - But I must
admit that, in general, I-coded stories IMHO are better than D-coded stories.

I'll try to write an introduction to some of my favourite D-coded stories
sometime soon.

Jacob
--
Have you played with your LEGO today?
--
URL's: "mailto:sparre at cats.nbi.dk", "http://fys.ku.dk/(J~(Bsparre/Comics".
--
"We need a plan to diverge from", Fesser
--
LEGO: MOC+++c TO+++(6543) TC+++(8880) AQ+++ BV-- #++ S LS++ A-/+ YB72m

Don asked me to comment on this, and I will briefly. Yes, the current market
is in a major slump, partly because of the breakup of the independent
distribution system into "camps". Stores now have to order from 3 or more
distributors to get all the new comics because the major companies have
allied themselves to different ones exclusively. This was started by Marvel
who bought one of the big distributors and gave them exclusive rights to
distribute Marvel comics.
This all looks to me, though, like a slight expansion of the usual boom
and bust cycle in the comics business. There was a big downturn in 1978 or so
when I was on staff at DC for about a year. Many books were cancelled, staff
laid off, some companies went under, etc. The same thing is happening now.
There were smaller busts inbetween then and now. And some big booms as well
-- when sales climbed and everyone thought they could put out comics and make
a fortune. Some of them did, some tried and lost their shirts. Publishing is
not for the faint of heart.
Anyway, I think the cycle will come around probably some time next year,
and sales will pick up again. Whether Gladstone will survive (at least as a
Disney publisher) remains to be seen. They have been cutting costs where they
can, which is smart. It will be interesting to see what happens with the
Disney license -- a renewal will commit Gladstone to at least another year of
publishing Disney comics. As far as I know they are still paying their bills
and freelancers. If any of you (David?) get checks from them, and notice
longer delays in payment, that would be a sign that the end is near. But I
have a feeling that Bruce Hamilton, having been in this for some time, will
be able to ride it out.
Don -- thanks for the kind words on Lo$. Now if I could only explain my
Atlantic/Pacific gaff... :-)

On Tue, 28 Nov 1995 disney-comics at Minsk.DoCS.UU.SE wrote:

> ======================================================================
> Date: Mon, 27 Nov 1995 17:26:40 +0100 (MET)
> From: Fredrik Ekman <ekman at lysator.liu.se>
> Subject: Lord of the Rings
>
> On Mon, 27 Nov 1995, Melanie wrote:
> > Of course, Disney also had the rights to Tolkien's _Lord of the Rings_, but
> > sold them to Ralph Bakshi (FRITZ THE CAT, WIZARDS) who botched that story.
>
> Wot? Disney had the rights to LOTR. I have not heard about this before.
> Please elaborate.

I'm afraid I can't add much to it. Disney bought the rights and then just
sat on the property for a number of years. Of course, the story is very
elaborate and would be difficult to condense into a Disney feature. I
think they felt overwhelmed by it and just decided to sell. Given the
company's treatment of _Wind in the Willows_ and _Alice_, it was probably
a good idea. OTOH, Bakshi's version was worse than a disappointment. The
animation was pedestrian and he didn't bother to finish the story. All
this after the high hopes generated by his comparatively well-executed
production, _Wizards_.

That's about all I can add to it.

Regards,

Melanie

> It nice to get to know the names of some of the best Italian Disney artists.
> The "Star Wars spoof drawn by Massimo De Vita" is one of my
> favourite stories, and the stories from Argaar are also really good.

I'm glad to hear that!

> I'll try to write an introduction to some of my favourite D-coded stories
> sometime soon.

I look forward to it.

> URL's: "mailto:sparre at cats.nbi.dk", "http://fys.ku.dk/(J~(Bsparre/Comics".

I just paid a visit and I added a pointer to your page on mine. Good
stuff! I saw the complete version of Artur's list (I had not realised
it was online -- well done!) and I thought I might contribute a few
more data points on Italy.

I'm not at home right now so I can't fill in all the details exactly
(like what is the size of the albums, on what issue and year
this-and-that happened...) but I think I can give you a reasonable
amount of information from memory, probably more than you want to put
in your file anyway :-)

I shall also give you the codes that are normally used to identify the
various publications in books about comics (and which I use whenever I
quote a bibliographical reference to a story).

The most important Italian Disney comic is, as you say, "Topolino",
with a circulation of the order of 1 million copies per week (usually
less than that, say 600-800 thousand, but it has passed the 1M mark a
few times e.g. during the summer and with special gadgets being
distributed with the comic). It has been around in this format, which
we call "Topolino Libretto" (TL), meaning "booklet", since 1949 and
has recently passed the "issue 2000" mark. Before that it existed in
newspaper form (TG for Topolino Giornale, although the official title
of the publication always remained "Topolino") and also ran comics
stories with humans, not only mice and ducks.

Another important comic is "I Classici di Walt Disney" (CWD), which is
made entirely of reprints of stories from Topolino, which restarted
from number 1 somewhere in the late '70s / early '80s. From then on we
referred to it as CWDNS, the NS standing for "Nuova Serie" (new
series). The reprinted stories were almost exclusively Italian until
the mid '80s. For a while the odd issues of CWDNS were exact reprints
of issues of the CWD, which were already collectors' items sold at
next to extortionate prices at comics conventions. The CWD / CWDNS are
translated and redistributed in many European countries, as we
discussed in September.

Almanacco Topolino (can't remember what the approved abbreviation is,
because there was another one called Albi di Topolino) was larger in
format and so it could take 4 rows of 2 pictures; this made it more
suitable for foreign material which started in that format. Some
Italian stories were written in that format as well. Earlier on, the
same series was called "Albi della Rosa" but I don't have any of these
(too expensive... :-)). Another series with the same page format but
thicker, "Super Almanacco Paperino" (SAP), consisted mostly of
reprints, both from Almanacco and (Wow!) from Barks stories. After a
while (17 issues I think) it restarted from issue 1 (SAPNS). If I am
not mistaken it then became "Paperino Mese" (different cover logo but
kept the numbering sequence), which later shrunk in size to become
just slightly larger than TL/CWD/CWDNS.

Currently there are lots and lots of series, mostly reprints, in the
CWD format: Topomistery (TM) which has Mickey detective stories,
Paperinik (PK) which has Paperinik and Super Goofy stories, Grandi
Classici Disney (GCD) which is a thicker version of CWD. New ones seem
to come out constantly: I find new comic series almost every year when
I go back to Italy: there is one on the Junior Woodchucks (all new
Italian stories, very nice colouring and gifted young artists), one
called Minni "for girls", one called "Topolino Adventure", another one
called "Paper Fantasy"... these are of a slightly larger format than
the CWD.

There is also a "Mega 2000" (I think it used to be called "Mega
Almanacco", or vice versa) which contains only new stories, mostly D-
and B-coded. I don't have many of these comics so I can't say much.

Then there is a large-format (greater than A4), very thin comic called
"Le grandi parodie" which reprints all those spoofs of classic
literature. Unfortunately the series suffered from a 3x price increase
and is now monumentally overpriced -- I consider it a real rip-off,
although I haven't yet found the strength to stop buying it... ;-)

Last but certainly not least there is "Zio Paperone" which has just
finished reprinting all of Carl Barks stories and is currently
printing Don's Life of $crooge. If one bought only one comic from
Italian newsagents, it would have to be this one.

Frank (Filologo Disneyano)