Keskustelujen arkisto

Henri Kunne:
> Kriton Kyrimis wrote:
>
> >In the Noah's Ark segment in Fantasia 2000, we see that among the
> >"two of each species" pairs in Noah's Ark there are two ducks and two
> >whatever-it-is-that-Donald-and-Daisy-are.
> [snip]
> >....unless you want to infer that Noah was not entirely fair, taking more
> >than one pair from some species, the conclusion that Donald is a
> >different species is obvious!
>
> That's not obvious. According to Genesis 7:2, by divine command (and NOT
> by 'not being fair'), Noah took seven pairs of the clean species, one pair
> of the unclean species; pigs and the like. (Guess The Three Little Pigs
> had to pick straws.... ;-)

That was very funny Henri! LOL! ;-) As for the way I see Don and Daisy,
HDL and all the rest, is no different than the comparison between Goofy
(Dippy Dawg) and Pluto. We know both are "dogs" but only one of them acts
like a dog. Don, like Goofy, is an anthropomorph or human-like creature.
Whether Don has a dognose, mouse ears, a duckbill or any other birdbeak,
as long as they are walking upright and doing all the things humans do,
they are humans to me.

I did like the "gag" in Fantasia 2000, and Henri is indeed correct about
the "clean animals by seven" (Noah and his family had to eat, y'kno). ;-).
So "When is a Duck not a duck?" When the duck is Donald Duck!

Rich Bellacera

HENRI:

> That's not obvious. According to Genesis 7:2, by divine command (and NOT
> by 'not being fair'), Noah took seven pairs of the clean species, one pair
> of the unclean species; pigs and the like.

Hmmm... you're right. I guess they taught us a simplified version of
the story at school. (Probably the same simplified story they taught
the Disney animators, as all animals came in single pairs in the movie.)

GEORGIOS:

> Henri-Georges Clouzot 1953 movie "Le salaire de la peur" (English title:
> Wages of Fear)

I guess you beat me to the question. Did you actually know the French and
English titles of the movie, or did you raid the Internet Movie Database,
like I did?

> I would like to ask Don if this is true or it's a simple but amazing
> coincidence.

Given Don's fondness for movies from that era, it would be an amazing
coincidence if this weren't true.

Kriton (e-mail: kyrimis at cti.gr)
(WWW: http://dias.cti.gr/~kyrimis)
-----
"I don't know what happened to you two, but I can pretty confidently
rule out death."
-----

KRISTIAN:

=====================================================================
At the risk of displaying to the world my in no way impressive
knowledge of the Bible (I _could_ go home and check first, but then I'd
have to wait until tomorrow to post this), I think Noah actually DID take
more than one pair from some of the species, didn't he? If that's true,
and nothing further is mentioned, then we still don't know for sure
whether whatever-it-is-that-Donald-and-Daisy-are (WIITDADA) = ducks ;)
=====================================================================

You are quite correct about the variance from the "two-by-two" rule.
According to Genesis 6:20, Noah was commanded to preserve a male and a
female of every living creature, including "flying creatures according to
their kinds ... and moving animals of the ground according to their kinds."

But Genesis 7:2 places a further condition on the selection: "Of every
clean beast you must take to yourself by sevens, the sire and its mate; and
of every beast that is not clean just two, the sire and its mate." Verse 3
extends that provision to flying creatures of the heavens. A "clean beast"
would have meant domesticated animals approved by God, including what we
commonly consider to be barnyard fowl. Ducks would have been among that
number, so that leaves the question of Donald and Daisy's status on the ark
(in a Fantasia world anyway) unanswered.

Here are the translations of two articles from last month's Komix,
which you might find of interest:

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The classic Barks tale and Rosa's ecological fable
RETURN TO THE LAND OF THE PYGMY INDIANS

1957: Uncle Scrooge learns in a Barks story that returning to nature
is not an easy thing. 1990: In another story, this time by Don Rosa,
uncle Scrooge, without any self-delusions, smokes the peace pipe
with nature...

In 1957, Carl Barks had sent uncle Scrooge on an adventure in the
mysterious *Land of the Pygmy Indians* (_Komix_ #14), in the forests of
the Great Lakes, in the border between Canada and the United States. In
1990, Don Rosa brings the world's richest duck back to these same
places: this second return to Nature gives him a chance to settle some
open accounts.

BACK TO NATURE? NO THANK YOU!
One fine morning, uncle Scrooge decides that he can't stand living
in Duckburg any more, among the "smog and noise and shoving people";
thus, he buys a "vast plot of land" north of Duckburg and decides to
move to Nature. However, things do not turn out as he had expected.In
this place with "thousands of lakes" live more than "moose and mudhens",
as the real estate agent had promised; an unknown tribe of Pygmy Indians
lives there as well, in full harmony with Nature.

Of course, the motives of the world's richest duck had been pure; however,
in uncle Carl's stories, pure motives are rarely enough to avert disaster,
and this is because, as commented by the great master Barks himself,
"uncle Scrooge" takes his problems with him, wherever he goes". Thus,
when he arrived there, he managed to upset Paradise...". Indeed, uncle
Scrooge is and remains a businessman. Thus, at first, the beauty of the
virgin landscape leaves him unmoved; he only sees around him natural
resources waiting for a smart investor to exploit them.

Carl Barks' tale is very enjoyable. However, as usual, it puts
some interesting questions. In the end of the story, uncle Scrooge
makes friends with the Pygmy Indians and promises to respect their
land. However, the world of the city ducks and the world of the children
of Nature cannot make friends, and so the Ducks decide that it is
best to return to the city and the pollution. Once more, Carl Barks
prefers to put a question, rather than suggesting an easy recipe for its
solution. The ducks and people of the city can respect Nature, but they
cannot return to it. Their meeting together inevitably ends in a clash,
and, unfortunately, this clash can only lead to a temporary truce. For
uncle Carl, the final conflict seems to be inevitable...

THE FINAL CONFLICT
When Don Rosa brings the Ducks back to the _Land of the Pygmy Indians_, he
continues the story exactly where Carl Barks left it, presenting the clash
that the great Master had left looming vaguely in the future. Indeed,
although many things have changed during the time between these two
journeys, the city ducks have not solved the basic contradiction
characterizing their attitude towards Nature. On one hand, they are
interested in protecting the environment, and on the other hand they
treat nature as the means for getting rich. Uncle Scrooge may have kept
his promise, declaring the land of the Pygmy Indians a "Natural Preserve",
but he treats the woods as a huge stock of lumber for the paper mill which
he has built a bit further. Thus, despite the safety measures that he
has taken, his mill poisons the great virgin northern woods irreparably.

The moment of the great face-off arrives, and at this point the story
loses its "realism" to turn into a kind of modern ecological fable. Nature
has no difficulty defeating the invaders, however the clash is destructive
for all. The only thing that the ducks can do is learn their lesson. The
story takes an unexpected turn when uncle Scrooge realizes his mistake
and takes the responsibility for his actions. Don Rosa's Scrooge "always
carries his problems with him", but during the course of the story he
evolves. He learns from his mistakes and tries to correct him as best
as he can...

AN INVESTMENT IN THE FUTURE
The end of Don Rosa's fable is, perhaps, less "realistic" than the end
of Carl Barks' story. If the Master closes his story with a rather
pessimistic note, the charismatic successor prefers to complete his
with a wish, a call for a radical revision of the relations between the
ducks--and people--and Nature.

These differences between Carl Barks' *Land of the Pygmy Indians* and
Don Rosa's *War of the Wendigo* do not appear to be due only to the
different personalities of the creators of the two stories. Between 1957
and 1990 many things had changed. The destruction of the environment is no
longer an immediate threat; it is a horrible reality. And this, perhaps,
is where the deep relation between Carl Barks and Don Rosa is. They both
manage to catch the pulse of their times and talk, through their beloved
characters, about everyday problems. In the end of his story, uncle Carl
lets a dark perspective loom. In our days, when this dark b\perspective
has become reality, Don Rosa suggests the only real hope: The world of the
ducks, and therefore the human world, and the world of Nature are indeed
incompatible, but the are not totally irreconcilable. A clash will solve
no problem. On the contrary, it creates more, and self-criticism does
not help at all; the only viable perspective is reconciliation... Perhaps
it's time to smoke the Peace Pipe with Mother nature.

The _War of the Wendigo_ nearly fell victim to a peculiar censorship,
which, at least it would appear, seems to have little relation to the
censorship of the '50s. Even though the "Wendigo", according to some
beliefs, are spirits living in the woods of Canada, Rosa's American
publishers thought that this could be considered offensive to the native
inhabitants of the US, because the Indians were being shown as "Wendigo"
and they all had the same face.

We don't know if there really were any complaints made by representatives
of the Indian communities. However, no matter how illogical this affair
may appear to the eyes of a European, this worrying of the American
publishers appears somewhat justified... Both comics and Hollywood
cinema have a guilty past regarding the depiction of minorities. In
western movies, Indians are usually the bad guys...

Don Rosa, however, does not appear to have intended to offend anyone. The
"morale" of the story is respect of both Nature and the way of life of
certain small groups...

During the '50s, the story might have been axed for exactly the opposite
reasons: because it is too "positive" about Indians and makes heavy
criticism on the ruling class.

[Inset]
In the _Land of the Pygmy Indians_ (_Komix_ #14), Barks renders in an
exciting manner the clash that is the main theme of his story. The Ducks'
invasion of the Pygmy Indians' peaceful way of life is amplified by their
movement in the previous panel, from right to left. The Indians also move
towards the same direction in the panel shown here. Thus, the conflict
between two different ideologies and the complications resulting from
a mutual lack of understanding are rendered in a dramatic way.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A Croesus respecting the flora
UNCLE SCROOGE AND THE ENVIRONMENT

"`Stop polluting the environment'... Does that sound like Scrooge
McDuck talking? Rubbish!", exclaims Ravage DeFlora, when Donald hands
him a letter, in which the Duckburg Croesus asks him to shut down a
factory polluting the great Norther woods. Can things be not as simple
as they seem?

For uncle Scrooge, success and, in particular, the acquisition of wealth,
is a victory against some opponent. As he says himself, he became rich
not only because he worked hard, but because he was "tougher than the
toughies" as well... Nature is simply one of the adversaries whom
he managed to defeat. For example, when, in the *Golden Nugget Boat*
(_Komix_ #84) or the *Loony Lunar Gold Rush* (_Komix_ #54), he tells of
the difficulties that he met as a prospector, we have the impression
that hard weather conditions and all sorts of adversities, were parts
of a test that he passed successfully.

TEMPESTUOUS RELATIONSHIPS
The richest duck in the world only despises his opponents when they
deserve it... The thing is that Carl Barks' Scrooge is no longer a young,
dynamic adventurer; he is a tycoon. However, the richest duck in the world
is not as tough as he would like to appear, especially when he doesn't
face tough opponents. We often see him resigning from profit, to leave
a virgin area untouched, or to keep the secret of an isolated people.

FROM BARKS TO ROSA
Barks' Scrooge McDuck is no big shark, but he doesn't let any of his
sensitivities express themselves, except in rare cases. In any case, he
could not be called an ecologist. Is, therefore, Ravage DeFlora right
in saying that he can't believe that his boss had written such a note?

We don't think so. As usual, Barks prefers to simply present his
hero's contradictions; He prefers to exploit the comic gags that can
result from them and to pose questions, rather than providing solutions
expressly. Rosa, on the other hand, prefers to bring Scrooge face to face
with his own contradictions. He puts his hero in front of dilemmas, and
"forces" him to take a position. In "War of the Wendigo", the rich duck
comes face to face with the consequences of his actions and with the "dark"
side of his self, shown here incarnated as Ravage DeFlora. If he takes
the side of Nature, this is not only because the Pygmy Indian chief placed
him in front of his responsibilities, but also to prove that he is tougher
than the one who had been "tougher than the toughies": his own self.

--
Kriton (e-mail: kyrimis at cti.gr)
(WWW: http://dias.cti.gr/~kyrimis)
-----
"Archaeologists should be able to get away with generalizations and guesswork
without representatives of long-dead civilizations coming along and laughing
at them."
-----

Sigvald:

Attaaaack's printed storycode is "F PM 00201 C" where PM = Picsou
Magazine (of course) and C = Complete story. 00 is the year, and "2" is
the digit reserved to long story (short stories being gags). In the
Disney database, the code is "F PM 00201" (since the letter C adds no
information).

Hi Ugo-

I can pick up the Kalavala page Timo posted just fine. Under
File+Properties on his web page, it looks to me like it's encoded in
Microsoft HTML 5.0, which happens to be the version of Microsoft
Explorer I'm running. If you're running something different, like
Netscape, or even an older version of the Microsoft browser, it might
not work for you.

Sonia

Timo, Amy, Sonia, ..... :
Thanks a lot for posting the Kalevala page and for explaining how to read
it.
Now I got a glimpse of the run-o-meter and, though I can't appreciate at all
the pronounciation and syllable division in Finnish, I have at least an idea
of the special font. For a better understanding I'll wait for the Italian
version ;-)

Henri :

> That's not obvious. According to Genesis 7:2, by divine command (and NOT
> by 'not being fair'), Noah took seven pairs of the clean species, one pair
> of the unclean species; pigs and the like. (Guess The Three Little Pigs
> had to pick straws.... ;-)
And, since they were supposed to be pairs, one of the two winners should
have dressed up as a Lady Pig ...

Ugo

Hi Guys. I'm Apostolis, a new member!