Nice history lesson, Harry.
> I noticed (last month when I was in Germany) that Germans call Ostfriesland
> (4) also simply "Friesland", making things quite complex when talking with a
> Dutchman.
I believe most Germans aren't even aware that there is a Dutch province
of Friesland. And to complicate matters further, there is even a German
district (Landkreis) which has the official name Friesland, but in fact
only covers a small part of Ostfriesland ...
> I originally said that Ub Iwerks is of *Dutch*-Frisian origin. But since we
> only have his name (and not his original language or country), Iwerks can
> originate from 2 or 4 (or even from one of the others). I got the
> information that Iwerks is Dutch from a Dutch book...
Even Dave Smith, maintainer of the Disney Archives, states Iwerks was
"of Dutch lineage". So we can take it as official. (To avoid confusion:
Ub Iwerks was born in Kansas, not in the Netherlands.)
> That's a strange conclusion, when you know the above. I am from 3
> (Groningen), and my official first name "Harke" is Frisian. I'd say I am
> "much of a Frisian", indeed (but also "much of non-Frisians").
Just a statistically supported assumption based on your surname ... :-)
Gerd
Author
Topic: 200208
(201 messages)
Gerd Syllwasschy
Iwerks / Friesland [a bit OT]
Message 181 -
2002-08-28 at 13:55:36
Klaus Harms
Of Barks and Frisians, and off-topic
Message 182 -
2002-08-28 at 14:29:42
Von: H.W.Fluks at kpn.com
> Back to Disney comics...
... waitaminute ...
Von: Gerd Syllwasschy <gsy at megatel.de>
> (http://www.telefonbuch.de) and found 57 people carrying that name, most
> of them living in East Frisia (that's a region on the German North Sea
> coast between the Dutch border and the city of Oldenburg).
> (BTW, a search for "Barks" yields only 8 hits
Though I (living in Oldenburg) have never met anyone named Iwwerks I
once *have* met a person that carried "Barks" as surname (from Emden,
German East Frisia). However, he claimed not to be related with the
great artist of the 20th century.
Von: H.W.Fluks at kpn.com
> To avoid confusion, here's a summary about Frisia (Friesland) and the
> Frisian language(s)
[skipping]
> I noticed (last month when I was in Germany) that Germans call Ostfriesland
> (4) also simply "Friesland", making things quite complex when talking with a
> Dutchman.
To *add* to the confusion: I think you are in error here: There is a
district officially named "Friesland" (Jever and Varel) that is outside
of "Ostfriesland" (Emden, Leer, Wittmund and Aurich). However, this
region's naming is NOT derived from any Frisian origin, but it is indeed
Lower German meaning "Freies Land" (free territory); hence, its
inhabitants are "Friesl?nder" in Germany, in contrast to "Friesen" who
live in Frisian areas (covering territories in Netherlands, Germany, and
also Denmark). In Southern parts of Germany "Ostfriesland", "Friesland "
and the entire Northwest German Area West of Bremen are easily mixed up.
> --Harry.
> (Married in 1729: Br?ne Derks from Oostvriesland + Engel Wilken from
> Oldenborgerlant - arrived in Groningen in 1730 - their grandchildren took
> the name Fluks in 1811)
Klaus
(who, according to J. Klein and N. Takahata: Where Do We Come From?,
Springer Vlg, Heidelberg 2002, is a direct offspring of Charlemagne, as
is virtually any living Homo sapiens worldwide)
> Back to Disney comics...
... now!
> Back to Disney comics...
... waitaminute ...
Von: Gerd Syllwasschy <gsy at megatel.de>
> (http://www.telefonbuch.de) and found 57 people carrying that name, most
> of them living in East Frisia (that's a region on the German North Sea
> coast between the Dutch border and the city of Oldenburg).
> (BTW, a search for "Barks" yields only 8 hits
Though I (living in Oldenburg) have never met anyone named Iwwerks I
once *have* met a person that carried "Barks" as surname (from Emden,
German East Frisia). However, he claimed not to be related with the
great artist of the 20th century.
Von: H.W.Fluks at kpn.com
> To avoid confusion, here's a summary about Frisia (Friesland) and the
> Frisian language(s)
[skipping]
> I noticed (last month when I was in Germany) that Germans call Ostfriesland
> (4) also simply "Friesland", making things quite complex when talking with a
> Dutchman.
To *add* to the confusion: I think you are in error here: There is a
district officially named "Friesland" (Jever and Varel) that is outside
of "Ostfriesland" (Emden, Leer, Wittmund and Aurich). However, this
region's naming is NOT derived from any Frisian origin, but it is indeed
Lower German meaning "Freies Land" (free territory); hence, its
inhabitants are "Friesl?nder" in Germany, in contrast to "Friesen" who
live in Frisian areas (covering territories in Netherlands, Germany, and
also Denmark). In Southern parts of Germany "Ostfriesland", "Friesland "
and the entire Northwest German Area West of Bremen are easily mixed up.
> --Harry.
> (Married in 1729: Br?ne Derks from Oostvriesland + Engel Wilken from
> Oldenborgerlant - arrived in Groningen in 1730 - their grandchildren took
> the name Fluks in 1811)
Klaus
(who, according to J. Klein and N. Takahata: Where Do We Come From?,
Springer Vlg, Heidelberg 2002, is a direct offspring of Charlemagne, as
is virtually any living Homo sapiens worldwide)
> Back to Disney comics...
... now!
Don Rosa
DCML digest #1054
Message 183 -
2002-08-28 at 21:39:20
From: "M.J. Prior" <M.J.Prior at let.rug.nl>
>>>>But maybe Gilles has copied this spelling from
Don Rosa's "Treasury of Croesus", in which "Syrse", "Kroesos" en
"Midos" are spelled the wrong way. There's another 'Greek' word on the wall
that
doesn't make any sense to me. It's a bit of a pity that Rosa, for all his
research, let slip this little mistake
into his story.
I've addressed this matter several times in the past, and I'll do so again.
There are two points, of which the second is the most important.
A) I obtained the ancient Greek spelling I used for Croesus in my story from
a photo in a book of an ancient vase depicting Croesus with his name written
on it. When I was accused of an error, it was 6-12 months after I'd finished
the story and far too late to find the research data or hunt down which of
the many, many reference books I'd used. Maybe the name was written on the
ancient vase by a Greek who couldn't spell well? Maybe the ancient Greeks
know better than we do today as to how they should spell their own words in
their own language? Maybe it was a Lydian vase? But, none of this matters
because:
2) I WAS WRITING (or pretending to write) LYDIAN, NOT GREEK! Remember the
early scene in the Duckburg museum where it is expressly stated that nobody
had ever been able to read that writing on the column barrels because it
WASN'T Greek! I worked on that story with the head of the Greek Antiquities
department at the University of Minnesota, who had been an old prof of mine
in college in Kentucky (in one of my history electives on the way to my
engineering degree). He and I previously created a comic strip in the sprit
of "Asterix" based on Trojan War times called "Phalanx"... back around
1971... but anyway...
The writing on the columns in my Temple of Artemis and on the mural in my
Treasury of Croesus, was in LYDIAN, not GREEK. Both of those structures were
built in Lydia by Lydians for Lydians. The Prof assured me that Lydian is a
totally LOST language. The only thing that is known of it is that it
employed the Greek alphabet, the same way that, say, Spanish is written in
the same letters/characters as Italian even though they are two different
languages with different spellings. The spellings the Prof gave me may well
have been his expert opinion on how he guessed the names might have been
spelled differently in Lydian, or perhaps he simply purposely changed them
slightly just so it would *not* be the same as Greek. It's been many years
since I was in touch with my old friend, so I can use this for an excuse and
give him a call and ask him (thanks for that!). But whatever the case, no
one can conclusively say those names are spelled wrong in my story since
they are not supposed to be written in Greek.
If there are any ancient Lydians on this ML, let's hear from you...
>>>>But maybe Gilles has copied this spelling from
Don Rosa's "Treasury of Croesus", in which "Syrse", "Kroesos" en
"Midos" are spelled the wrong way. There's another 'Greek' word on the wall
that
doesn't make any sense to me. It's a bit of a pity that Rosa, for all his
research, let slip this little mistake
into his story.
I've addressed this matter several times in the past, and I'll do so again.
There are two points, of which the second is the most important.
A) I obtained the ancient Greek spelling I used for Croesus in my story from
a photo in a book of an ancient vase depicting Croesus with his name written
on it. When I was accused of an error, it was 6-12 months after I'd finished
the story and far too late to find the research data or hunt down which of
the many, many reference books I'd used. Maybe the name was written on the
ancient vase by a Greek who couldn't spell well? Maybe the ancient Greeks
know better than we do today as to how they should spell their own words in
their own language? Maybe it was a Lydian vase? But, none of this matters
because:
2) I WAS WRITING (or pretending to write) LYDIAN, NOT GREEK! Remember the
early scene in the Duckburg museum where it is expressly stated that nobody
had ever been able to read that writing on the column barrels because it
WASN'T Greek! I worked on that story with the head of the Greek Antiquities
department at the University of Minnesota, who had been an old prof of mine
in college in Kentucky (in one of my history electives on the way to my
engineering degree). He and I previously created a comic strip in the sprit
of "Asterix" based on Trojan War times called "Phalanx"... back around
1971... but anyway...
The writing on the columns in my Temple of Artemis and on the mural in my
Treasury of Croesus, was in LYDIAN, not GREEK. Both of those structures were
built in Lydia by Lydians for Lydians. The Prof assured me that Lydian is a
totally LOST language. The only thing that is known of it is that it
employed the Greek alphabet, the same way that, say, Spanish is written in
the same letters/characters as Italian even though they are two different
languages with different spellings. The spellings the Prof gave me may well
have been his expert opinion on how he guessed the names might have been
spelled differently in Lydian, or perhaps he simply purposely changed them
slightly just so it would *not* be the same as Greek. It's been many years
since I was in touch with my old friend, so I can use this for an excuse and
give him a call and ask him (thanks for that!). But whatever the case, no
one can conclusively say those names are spelled wrong in my story since
they are not supposed to be written in Greek.
If there are any ancient Lydians on this ML, let's hear from you...
H.W.Fluks
Krooisos kai Kirke
Message 184 -
2002-08-29 at 13:01:40
Don:
> I've addressed this matter several times in the past, and
> I'll do so again.
And so will I! 8-)
(I think I was the first one to complain about this, here on DCML.)
> A) I obtained the ancient Greek spelling I used for Croesus
> in my story from
> a photo in a book of an ancient vase depicting Croesus with
> his name written on it.
I'm still curious to see that photo. To me it sounds like the vase is a
forgery. (Or maybe the vase was tattooed on a lady?)
> 2) I WAS WRITING (or pretending to write) LYDIAN, NOT GREEK!
Yes, but these languages use the same alphabet.
We have the following names:
Lydian KR<omicron>ISOS, Greek KR<omega>ISOS.
Lydian S<ypsilon>RS<epsilon>, Greek K<iota>RK<eta>.
Lydian MIDOS, Greek MIDAS.
Some questions arise:
1. Why would the Greek have a different spelling for *names*? Usually names
don't change. Don Rosa is still Don Rosa in Dutch.
2. Why would the Greek change an S (sigma) into a K (kappa)? All consonant
shifts I know of work the opposite way, changing a K into S (via "tch" and
"sh").
And here are possible answers to those questions:
1. Historical people *do* carry a "translated" name sometimes. For instance
Marcus Antonius is called Mark Anthony in English. Also, the names of the
Pope (Ioannes Paulus II) are translated. A possible reason for this is that
people like to be able to pronounce the names, and English people had
problems with Mar-koos Ahn-toe-nee-oos and such.
2. Lydian is an unknown language, so maybe the Greek had a shift from S to
K. Or maybe the Lydians pronounced a No-one can tell.
And finally, some counter-arguments:
1. Both the Lydian spelling and the Greek spelling of Croesus (and Circe,
and Midas) are perfectly pronounceable for (ancient) Greek. So for what
reason would they change the name?
2. It is a *big* coincidence that the Greek shifted from Lydian exactly the
opposite way that Roman languages shifted ages later.
(S to K, Y to I, long O to short O.)
Anyway, Don's story about King Croesus may help us learning more about that
strange Lydian language...
(BTW, how do the English pronounce "Croesus"? Like "Kreezus"?)
--Harry.
> I've addressed this matter several times in the past, and
> I'll do so again.
And so will I! 8-)
(I think I was the first one to complain about this, here on DCML.)
> A) I obtained the ancient Greek spelling I used for Croesus
> in my story from
> a photo in a book of an ancient vase depicting Croesus with
> his name written on it.
I'm still curious to see that photo. To me it sounds like the vase is a
forgery. (Or maybe the vase was tattooed on a lady?)
> 2) I WAS WRITING (or pretending to write) LYDIAN, NOT GREEK!
Yes, but these languages use the same alphabet.
We have the following names:
Lydian KR<omicron>ISOS, Greek KR<omega>ISOS.
Lydian S<ypsilon>RS<epsilon>, Greek K<iota>RK<eta>.
Lydian MIDOS, Greek MIDAS.
Some questions arise:
1. Why would the Greek have a different spelling for *names*? Usually names
don't change. Don Rosa is still Don Rosa in Dutch.
2. Why would the Greek change an S (sigma) into a K (kappa)? All consonant
shifts I know of work the opposite way, changing a K into S (via "tch" and
"sh").
And here are possible answers to those questions:
1. Historical people *do* carry a "translated" name sometimes. For instance
Marcus Antonius is called Mark Anthony in English. Also, the names of the
Pope (Ioannes Paulus II) are translated. A possible reason for this is that
people like to be able to pronounce the names, and English people had
problems with Mar-koos Ahn-toe-nee-oos and such.
2. Lydian is an unknown language, so maybe the Greek had a shift from S to
K. Or maybe the Lydians pronounced a No-one can tell.
And finally, some counter-arguments:
1. Both the Lydian spelling and the Greek spelling of Croesus (and Circe,
and Midas) are perfectly pronounceable for (ancient) Greek. So for what
reason would they change the name?
2. It is a *big* coincidence that the Greek shifted from Lydian exactly the
opposite way that Roman languages shifted ages later.
(S to K, Y to I, long O to short O.)
Anyway, Don's story about King Croesus may help us learning more about that
strange Lydian language...
(BTW, how do the English pronounce "Croesus"? Like "Kreezus"?)
--Harry.
Sigvald Grøsfjeld Jr.
COA-adressing
Message 185 -
2002-08-29 at 13:38:22
Hi all!
In some of the old sections in my "The D.U.C.K.man"
pages I still have many links to Per Starbaek?s pages,
pointing to individual stories by Barks and Rosa. Due
to more frequent updating of the information in COA I
now consider replacing the old links with new links
pointing to COA. I would thus like to know if the
addressing in COA is based upon the old addressing in
Starbaeck?s pages so that it?s enough to replace the
first part of each address, or if I have to replace
the entire addresses?
Sigvald :-)
______________________________________________________
Se den nye Yahoo! Mail p? http://no.yahoo.com/
Nytt design, enklere ? bruke, alltid tilgang til Adressebok, Kalender og Notisbok
In some of the old sections in my "The D.U.C.K.man"
pages I still have many links to Per Starbaek?s pages,
pointing to individual stories by Barks and Rosa. Due
to more frequent updating of the information in COA I
now consider replacing the old links with new links
pointing to COA. I would thus like to know if the
addressing in COA is based upon the old addressing in
Starbaeck?s pages so that it?s enough to replace the
first part of each address, or if I have to replace
the entire addresses?
Sigvald :-)
______________________________________________________
Se den nye Yahoo! Mail p? http://no.yahoo.com/
Nytt design, enklere ? bruke, alltid tilgang til Adressebok, Kalender og Notisbok
Sigvald Grøsfjeld Jr.
Krooisos kai Kirke
Message 186 -
2002-08-29 at 13:50:57
H.W.Fluks at kpn.com skrev: > Don:
>
> 1. Why would the Greek have a different spelling
> for *names*? Usually names don't change. Don Rosa
> is still Don Rosa in Dutch.
NOT in Greek. Not even when it's transcripted into
Latin letters.
Sigvald :-)
______________________________________________________
Se den nye Yahoo! Mail p? http://no.yahoo.com/
Nytt design, enklere ? bruke, alltid tilgang til Adressebok, Kalender og Notisbok
>
> 1. Why would the Greek have a different spelling
> for *names*? Usually names don't change. Don Rosa
> is still Don Rosa in Dutch.
NOT in Greek. Not even when it's transcripted into
Latin letters.
Sigvald :-)
______________________________________________________
Se den nye Yahoo! Mail p? http://no.yahoo.com/
Nytt design, enklere ? bruke, alltid tilgang til Adressebok, Kalender og Notisbok
H.W.Fluks
Krooisos kai Kirke
Message 187 -
2002-08-29 at 13:52:12
I wrote:
> 2. Lydian is an unknown language, so maybe the Greek had a
> shift from S to
> K. Or maybe the Lydians pronounced a No-one can tell.
I meant to write: Or maybe the Lydians pronounced a Sigma like "K". No-one
can tell.
--Harry.
> 2. Lydian is an unknown language, so maybe the Greek had a
> shift from S to
> K. Or maybe the Lydians pronounced a No-one can tell.
I meant to write: Or maybe the Lydians pronounced a Sigma like "K". No-one
can tell.
--Harry.
H.W.Fluks
Krooisos kai Kirke
Message 188 -
2002-08-29 at 13:59:09
Sigvald Gr?sfjeld:
> > 1. Why would the Greek have a different spelling
> > for *names*? Usually names don't change. Don Rosa
> > is still Don Rosa in Dutch.
>
> NOT in Greek. Not even when it's transcripted into
> Latin letters.
As I wrote in my e-mail: Greek and Lydian HAVE THE SAME ALPHABET. So the
fact that the (modern) Greek transcript Latin names by sound is irrelevant.
--Harry.
> > 1. Why would the Greek have a different spelling
> > for *names*? Usually names don't change. Don Rosa
> > is still Don Rosa in Dutch.
>
> NOT in Greek. Not even when it's transcripted into
> Latin letters.
As I wrote in my e-mail: Greek and Lydian HAVE THE SAME ALPHABET. So the
fact that the (modern) Greek transcript Latin names by sound is irrelevant.
--Harry.
Cwiljes
All German Comics online
Message 189 -
2002-08-29 at 14:40:44
You might be interested in this new site which showcases a nearly complete
database of all German comics. Complete with creator credits, cover scans
and value:
http://www.comicguide.de
Here for example is a list of all German issues with Don Rosa stories:
http://www.comicguide.de/php/suche_p.php?res=2&search=Don+Rosa
I believe this great site is easy enough to use even if you don't speak a
single word of German.
Enjoy,
Cord
database of all German comics. Complete with creator credits, cover scans
and value:
http://www.comicguide.de
Here for example is a list of all German issues with Don Rosa stories:
http://www.comicguide.de/php/suche_p.php?res=2&search=Don+Rosa
I believe this great site is easy enough to use even if you don't speak a
single word of German.
Enjoy,
Cord
H.W.Fluks
All German Comics online
Message 190 -
2002-08-29 at 15:33:08
Cord:
> You might be interested in this new site which showcases a
> nearly complete
> database of all German comics. Complete with creator credits,
> cover scans and value:
>
> http://www.comicguide.de
Very interesting!
The contents and credits for the Disney comics are clearly stolen from our
INDUCKS database, without a trace of acknowledgement.
"Copyright Star Media". Yeah, right.
--Harry.
> You might be interested in this new site which showcases a
> nearly complete
> database of all German comics. Complete with creator credits,
> cover scans and value:
>
> http://www.comicguide.de
Very interesting!
The contents and credits for the Disney comics are clearly stolen from our
INDUCKS database, without a trace of acknowledgement.
"Copyright Star Media". Yeah, right.
--Harry.
Cwiljes
AW: All German Comics online
Message 191 -
2002-08-29 at 18:59:58
Cord:
> You might be interested in this new site which showcases a
> nearly complete
> database of all German comics. Complete with creator credits,
> cover scans and value:
> http://www.comicguide.de
Harry:
> Very interesting!
> The contents and credits for the Disney comics are clearly stolen from our
> INDUCKS database, without a trace of acknowledgement.
> "Copyright Star Media". Yeah, right.
I was not aware of this. But I had noticed that they have extensive
knowledge about Disney publications. In fact better knowledge than could be
expected considering the fact that in the past no credits were given inside
the comics.
We have an ethical problem here: On the one hand the people who created the
site did this as a public service and (at least for now) do not earn any
money with it. On the other hand they have used knowledge (=intellectual
property) gathered by others without asking for permission and even without
acknowledging other people's work.
In my opinion this is completely unacceptable. Does the cause justify the
means? Sometimes it does, but clearly not in this case, where other
solutions were possible. How much time and knowledge was needed to build the
INDUCKS database? I have done something similar on a much smaller scale by
indexing my own comics, so I have a grasp of what this means. All the more
frustrating to see it copied.
Cord
> You might be interested in this new site which showcases a
> nearly complete
> database of all German comics. Complete with creator credits,
> cover scans and value:
> http://www.comicguide.de
Harry:
> Very interesting!
> The contents and credits for the Disney comics are clearly stolen from our
> INDUCKS database, without a trace of acknowledgement.
> "Copyright Star Media". Yeah, right.
I was not aware of this. But I had noticed that they have extensive
knowledge about Disney publications. In fact better knowledge than could be
expected considering the fact that in the past no credits were given inside
the comics.
We have an ethical problem here: On the one hand the people who created the
site did this as a public service and (at least for now) do not earn any
money with it. On the other hand they have used knowledge (=intellectual
property) gathered by others without asking for permission and even without
acknowledging other people's work.
In my opinion this is completely unacceptable. Does the cause justify the
means? Sometimes it does, but clearly not in this case, where other
solutions were possible. How much time and knowledge was needed to build the
INDUCKS database? I have done something similar on a much smaller scale by
indexing my own comics, so I have a grasp of what this means. All the more
frustrating to see it copied.
Cord
Kriton Kyrimis
Of Barks and Frisians, and off-topic
Message 192 -
2002-08-29 at 19:27:21
KLAUS
> (who, according to J. Klein and N. Takahata: Where Do We Come From?,
> Springer Vlg, Heidelberg 2002, is a direct offspring of Charlemagne, as
> is virtually any living Homo sapiens worldwide)
Although I understand the humor in the above claim, I can't help
wondering whether the above claim is true, or only limited to people of
West European extraction.
Kriton.
(Who, had the empress Irene not been deposed for accepting Charlemagne's
marriage proposal in 800, would have been a lot more certain that the
above assertion applied to him!)
> (who, according to J. Klein and N. Takahata: Where Do We Come From?,
> Springer Vlg, Heidelberg 2002, is a direct offspring of Charlemagne, as
> is virtually any living Homo sapiens worldwide)
Although I understand the humor in the above claim, I can't help
wondering whether the above claim is true, or only limited to people of
West European extraction.
Kriton.
(Who, had the empress Irene not been deposed for accepting Charlemagne's
marriage proposal in 800, would have been a lot more certain that the
above assertion applied to him!)
Kriton Kyrimis
Minor linguistic notes
Message 193 -
2002-08-29 at 19:33:55
> Also, there seem to be artifacts still existing, in which
> semi-literate stone carvers spelled "Caesar" with an S -- indicating that
> if the "Kaiser" pronunciation was in use then, it wasn't the only one in
> use.
I don't know if this factoid is true, but I did hear from an
archaeologist, recently, that it is such misspellings that provide us
with information about how a language used to be pronounced in the past.
> And MJ Prior -- the red dangling thingie on a chicken's neck is called a
> "wattle" in English.
This gives an entirely new meaning to that Monty Python sketch, where
a hermit used to line his cave with wattles!
Kriton (e-mail: kyrimis at cti.gr)
(WWW: http://dias.cti.gr/~kyrimis)
-----
"I am not here, don't worry!"
-----
> semi-literate stone carvers spelled "Caesar" with an S -- indicating that
> if the "Kaiser" pronunciation was in use then, it wasn't the only one in
> use.
I don't know if this factoid is true, but I did hear from an
archaeologist, recently, that it is such misspellings that provide us
with information about how a language used to be pronounced in the past.
> And MJ Prior -- the red dangling thingie on a chicken's neck is called a
> "wattle" in English.
This gives an entirely new meaning to that Monty Python sketch, where
a hermit used to line his cave with wattles!
Kriton (e-mail: kyrimis at cti.gr)
(WWW: http://dias.cti.gr/~kyrimis)
-----
"I am not here, don't worry!"
-----
Kriton Kyrimis
(Magica de) Spelled the wrong way
Message 194 -
2002-08-29 at 19:38:47
MICHIEL:
> There's another 'Greek' word on the wall that
> doesn't make any sense to me.
Why, it's obviously "Dfeoo", which means exactly the same thing in
English, as it does in Greek. ;-)
> It's a bit of a pity that Rosa, for all his research, let slip this little
> mistake into his story.
Last time this cropped up, Don said that he did research this!
> But then, how many people can read Greek, so that
> they would notice?
A lot more than the people who would notice the other obscure details
that Don adds in his stories! Greek, after all, is not taught only in
Greek schools, and even the passing acquaintance with the Greek alphabet,
obtained through math, is often enough to enable one to read Greek names.
> And then, there's a sufficient number of Greek-reading
> people on this list to have maybe already mentioned it. (Does this sentence
> make any sense?)
One of them did, and it does. :-)
> I don't know how Circe is pronounced in English and French,
My guess would be "Sirse", just like Don spelled it in Greek. This
spelling sounds like what you'd get if you'd ask a Greek on the phone
how to spell "Sirse" in Greek; they would not recognize the name,
and they would therefore come up with a phonetic transcription, most
probably sigma-iota-rho-sigma-epsilon. The upsilon in Don's version is
an interesting touch, though. A modern Greek would still pronounce that
name as "Sirse", but an ancient Greek would pronounce it as "Soorse"!
> CIRCE is just the
> Roman transcription (switch from one alphabeth to the other) of Greek
> KIPKH.
Actually, it might be a transcription of the Greek name KIPKE, or even
KIRKE. Originally, eta was a consonant in Greek, similar to the one in
the Roman alphabet, and epsilon was used to represent both a short and
a long e sound. As the h sound began to fall in disuse, eta began to
be reused as a vowel, representing a long e sound. To complicate matters
further, the long e sound, was then turned into a short i sound, which is
why modern Greeks pronounce KIPKH as "Kirki". As for rho, it originally
looked more like R, with the slanted "leg" not going all the way down. The
alphabet of Chalkis, which, I understand, was the basis for the Roman
alphabet, used this version. In the Roman alphabet the slanting leg was
extended all the way down, while in the Greek alphabet it was chopped off.
The inscription in the treasury of Croesus would, quite likely, say
"KIPKE" instead of "KIPKH", as Midas lived around 700BC, and the change
from E to H began around 500 BC.
[An interesting detail for those who have had to struggle with the
aspiration marks in classical Greek: although it doesn't look like it,
the two aspiration marks are supposed to be the right (|_) and left (_|)
halves of the abolished H consonant!]
Kriton (e-mail: kyrimis at cti.gr)
(WWW: http://dias.cti.gr/~kyrimis)
-----
"Make way! For I am the official keeper of the Emperor's penguins and I must
hurry because his majesty's laundry basket is on fire."
-----
> There's another 'Greek' word on the wall that
> doesn't make any sense to me.
Why, it's obviously "Dfeoo", which means exactly the same thing in
English, as it does in Greek. ;-)
> It's a bit of a pity that Rosa, for all his research, let slip this little
> mistake into his story.
Last time this cropped up, Don said that he did research this!
> But then, how many people can read Greek, so that
> they would notice?
A lot more than the people who would notice the other obscure details
that Don adds in his stories! Greek, after all, is not taught only in
Greek schools, and even the passing acquaintance with the Greek alphabet,
obtained through math, is often enough to enable one to read Greek names.
> And then, there's a sufficient number of Greek-reading
> people on this list to have maybe already mentioned it. (Does this sentence
> make any sense?)
One of them did, and it does. :-)
> I don't know how Circe is pronounced in English and French,
My guess would be "Sirse", just like Don spelled it in Greek. This
spelling sounds like what you'd get if you'd ask a Greek on the phone
how to spell "Sirse" in Greek; they would not recognize the name,
and they would therefore come up with a phonetic transcription, most
probably sigma-iota-rho-sigma-epsilon. The upsilon in Don's version is
an interesting touch, though. A modern Greek would still pronounce that
name as "Sirse", but an ancient Greek would pronounce it as "Soorse"!
> CIRCE is just the
> Roman transcription (switch from one alphabeth to the other) of Greek
> KIPKH.
Actually, it might be a transcription of the Greek name KIPKE, or even
KIRKE. Originally, eta was a consonant in Greek, similar to the one in
the Roman alphabet, and epsilon was used to represent both a short and
a long e sound. As the h sound began to fall in disuse, eta began to
be reused as a vowel, representing a long e sound. To complicate matters
further, the long e sound, was then turned into a short i sound, which is
why modern Greeks pronounce KIPKH as "Kirki". As for rho, it originally
looked more like R, with the slanted "leg" not going all the way down. The
alphabet of Chalkis, which, I understand, was the basis for the Roman
alphabet, used this version. In the Roman alphabet the slanting leg was
extended all the way down, while in the Greek alphabet it was chopped off.
The inscription in the treasury of Croesus would, quite likely, say
"KIPKE" instead of "KIPKH", as Midas lived around 700BC, and the change
from E to H began around 500 BC.
[An interesting detail for those who have had to struggle with the
aspiration marks in classical Greek: although it doesn't look like it,
the two aspiration marks are supposed to be the right (|_) and left (_|)
halves of the abolished H consonant!]
Kriton (e-mail: kyrimis at cti.gr)
(WWW: http://dias.cti.gr/~kyrimis)
-----
"Make way! For I am the official keeper of the Emperor's penguins and I must
hurry because his majesty's laundry basket is on fire."
-----
Shad Z.
Minor linguistic notes
Message 195 -
2002-08-30 at 06:34:14
From: "ddmarkstein" <ddmarkstein at cox.net>
Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 09:23:55 -0700
>
> And MJ Prior -- the red dangling thingie on a chicken's neck is called a
> "wattle" in English. Not that it's ever likely you'll find a use for that
> little gem of knowledge, of course.
And the red pointy thing on top of their heads (which he also
asked about) is a "comb" in English. On a rooster (where the
comb is bigger than on a hen), it is sometimes call a "coxcomb"
(shortened from "cock's comb").
ShadZ
--
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Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 09:23:55 -0700
>
> And MJ Prior -- the red dangling thingie on a chicken's neck is called a
> "wattle" in English. Not that it's ever likely you'll find a use for that
> little gem of knowledge, of course.
And the red pointy thing on top of their heads (which he also
asked about) is a "comb" in English. On a rooster (where the
comb is bigger than on a hen), it is sometimes call a "coxcomb"
(shortened from "cock's comb").
ShadZ
--
__________________________________________________________
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