Daniel J. Neyer sez it best:
> I think this whole "Universe" debate has gone far enough.
After the past year's worth of such "debate" I can't imagine anyone
seriously disagreeing. Too bad it had to go this far.
Gary
Author
Topic: 200404
(317 messages)
Gary Leach
DCML Digest, Vol 14, Issue 19
Message 151 -
2004-04-07 at 05:22:50
Alecto
Printing question.
Message 152 -
2004-04-07 at 06:29:25
I'm doing some research for a page on my .au Disney site about how the comics
were printed, so far I've established that Australian Disney's were printed on a
rotogravure press, but am not sure what the Dell/GK issues were printed on, so -
can anyone here tell me what print process was used by Dell/GK to print their
comics? (actual brand and model of the press would be nice)
Anthony
were printed, so far I've established that Australian Disney's were printed on a
rotogravure press, but am not sure what the Dell/GK issues were printed on, so -
can anyone here tell me what print process was used by Dell/GK to print their
comics? (actual brand and model of the press would be nice)
Anthony
Mickey
Donald's uncle Ludwig
Message 153 -
2004-04-07 at 09:21:27
Lars:
> Scrooge has been used in comics since 1947 -- and suddenly, in 2004, his
sister Hortense (never before seen in
> current continuity) is shown to be alive and well. Why haven't we seen her
in earlier stories?
Where has it been shown? She was alive much before Scrooge's 1st apparition.
And it's obvious that Donald must have had a mother, even if she was never
named.
>Most Barks stories fit in; Ludwig's remark from "Kids is Kids" about being
a bachelor does not.
Why not? It's clear that now both Ludwig and Matilda are married no more.
The former always appearead as
a bachelor, the latter has just appeared as a lone woman.
This doesn't throw away the idea of they to be married. They could have
divorced long ago...
But this is classical fanta-storying!
> The question is, of course, what you the reader prefer
I do prefer a "some intermediate phase", where, with the right (implicit)
explanations,
Don's vision could apply in the other stories.
After all, he's the one who told us who are the parents of Donald or HDL.
Why shouldn't we
accept the only one opinion about this matter?
> Regard Don's ideas as exclusive to his stories alone.
Everyone can regard at those as he wants.
The important thing is that you don't force others to think like you...
bye
Mickey
> Scrooge has been used in comics since 1947 -- and suddenly, in 2004, his
sister Hortense (never before seen in
> current continuity) is shown to be alive and well. Why haven't we seen her
in earlier stories?
Where has it been shown? She was alive much before Scrooge's 1st apparition.
And it's obvious that Donald must have had a mother, even if she was never
named.
>Most Barks stories fit in; Ludwig's remark from "Kids is Kids" about being
a bachelor does not.
Why not? It's clear that now both Ludwig and Matilda are married no more.
The former always appearead as
a bachelor, the latter has just appeared as a lone woman.
This doesn't throw away the idea of they to be married. They could have
divorced long ago...
But this is classical fanta-storying!
> The question is, of course, what you the reader prefer
I do prefer a "some intermediate phase", where, with the right (implicit)
explanations,
Don's vision could apply in the other stories.
After all, he's the one who told us who are the parents of Donald or HDL.
Why shouldn't we
accept the only one opinion about this matter?
> Regard Don's ideas as exclusive to his stories alone.
Everyone can regard at those as he wants.
The important thing is that you don't force others to think like you...
bye
Mickey
Martin S. Thoresen
No offense! (OT)
Message 154 -
2004-04-07 at 10:47:24
Dani?l wrote:
> Just a question, as a short general reply, about the people and
> friends who are now personally patting each other on the back:
>
> Is there EVER *someone* here who ever sees how much *I* get offended?
>
> I'm just trying to discuss Disney comics and artists!
> What is so wrong about that???
>
> --- Dani?l (has feelings, too!)
You see, the thing is (and this coming from an "outsider", giving me the
elated
status of Impartial Observer..), you might have come across as a bit
unclear on that point.
It seemed to me you were more interested in discussing the personal
motives behind the Disney artists and whether or not these were "right",
rather than the outcome of these said artists.
Also, I really couldn't comprehend What excactly you were critizing either.
Are you really unsatisfied with Rosa stories Because they are Not
incosistent?
Had there been more plot-holes and lack of plausible logic they would have
been better? Otherwise, most stories by an author are consistent with each
other, that just shows that the artist bothered. (And this is perhaps the
most
negative comment I have on Barks, although I loove his stories&art, the fact
that he himself didn't bother with greater consistency.)
And it couldn't be your claim that Rosa is "raping" the work of Barks, as
this is impossible (both physically and methaphorically. No person anywhere,
can destroy or belittle another persons work of art, short of actually
attacking
the art physically (Like, if I were to create my own piece of art using the
original Mona Lisa and a pen-knife. But were I to paint my own version of
Mona Lisa,
in a non-flattering way, the original painting will still be there
untouched.)
Barks stories are preserved in printed comics as long as the paper last, and
I see
no evidence of Rosa wanting to first buy up all the printed versions of
Barks stories,
before dumping in the deepest place in the ocean, keeping one for
himself...oh, wrong story...,
and then demanding a stop to all future reprints of Barks stories.
Nor do I see him attempting to force the editors to rewrite the original
Barks stories,
to fit in with his own constructed time-line.
Origininality.
And, you even judge stories before you read them, yet protest when people
call you
pre-judgemental. And all this because there might be a chance that some
element in
the story has been based on a Barksian "fact" or idea. Here I still do not
understand,
surely you don't think all other Disney stories are completely original or
un-influenced
by Barks? Most of the Duck adventure stories are base around a Barks story,
any story
that uses the characters Barks inventeded, any story that builds on the
assumption that
Scrooge is scottish, or Duckburg is located by a river/ocean, etc. In
addition, there
are No original stories today, it is simply impossible as we all are
influenced every
day by everything we read, hear or watch. An artist would have had to live
in a vacuum
or been raised a hermit in order to avoid being influenced by another
artist.
And Barks influences many artist, either directly or in-directly (conciously
and subcounciously(sp?) as well,
and example of the in-direct influence are the stories with the relative of
Goofy that
looks like Indiana Jones. Several of those stories have been parodies of the
Indiana Jones movies,
and those movies were influenced by Barks Duck stories.
....oh my, I knew there was a point in here as well, but it seems to have
been
lost in the excessive flow of words.....
To finish up, I'd also like to mention that I feel people are a bit, shall
we
say "passionate" in this mailing-list. I haven't really felt upset over
anything
that has been written here, merely disagreed with some of it. The only thing
I did
think was over the top, and this has more to do with language, was the usage
of
the word "rape". This word sounds a lot more vicious and nasty in English
than it
probably does in Dutch.
So, I hope no one has ended up on unfriendly terms with each other over this
discussion, and that we can all respect each others opinions.
- Martin S. Thoresen
> Just a question, as a short general reply, about the people and
> friends who are now personally patting each other on the back:
>
> Is there EVER *someone* here who ever sees how much *I* get offended?
>
> I'm just trying to discuss Disney comics and artists!
> What is so wrong about that???
>
> --- Dani?l (has feelings, too!)
You see, the thing is (and this coming from an "outsider", giving me the
elated
status of Impartial Observer..), you might have come across as a bit
unclear on that point.
It seemed to me you were more interested in discussing the personal
motives behind the Disney artists and whether or not these were "right",
rather than the outcome of these said artists.
Also, I really couldn't comprehend What excactly you were critizing either.
Are you really unsatisfied with Rosa stories Because they are Not
incosistent?
Had there been more plot-holes and lack of plausible logic they would have
been better? Otherwise, most stories by an author are consistent with each
other, that just shows that the artist bothered. (And this is perhaps the
most
negative comment I have on Barks, although I loove his stories&art, the fact
that he himself didn't bother with greater consistency.)
And it couldn't be your claim that Rosa is "raping" the work of Barks, as
this is impossible (both physically and methaphorically. No person anywhere,
can destroy or belittle another persons work of art, short of actually
attacking
the art physically (Like, if I were to create my own piece of art using the
original Mona Lisa and a pen-knife. But were I to paint my own version of
Mona Lisa,
in a non-flattering way, the original painting will still be there
untouched.)
Barks stories are preserved in printed comics as long as the paper last, and
I see
no evidence of Rosa wanting to first buy up all the printed versions of
Barks stories,
before dumping in the deepest place in the ocean, keeping one for
himself...oh, wrong story...,
and then demanding a stop to all future reprints of Barks stories.
Nor do I see him attempting to force the editors to rewrite the original
Barks stories,
to fit in with his own constructed time-line.
Origininality.
And, you even judge stories before you read them, yet protest when people
call you
pre-judgemental. And all this because there might be a chance that some
element in
the story has been based on a Barksian "fact" or idea. Here I still do not
understand,
surely you don't think all other Disney stories are completely original or
un-influenced
by Barks? Most of the Duck adventure stories are base around a Barks story,
any story
that uses the characters Barks inventeded, any story that builds on the
assumption that
Scrooge is scottish, or Duckburg is located by a river/ocean, etc. In
addition, there
are No original stories today, it is simply impossible as we all are
influenced every
day by everything we read, hear or watch. An artist would have had to live
in a vacuum
or been raised a hermit in order to avoid being influenced by another
artist.
And Barks influences many artist, either directly or in-directly (conciously
and subcounciously(sp?) as well,
and example of the in-direct influence are the stories with the relative of
Goofy that
looks like Indiana Jones. Several of those stories have been parodies of the
Indiana Jones movies,
and those movies were influenced by Barks Duck stories.
....oh my, I knew there was a point in here as well, but it seems to have
been
lost in the excessive flow of words.....
To finish up, I'd also like to mention that I feel people are a bit, shall
we
say "passionate" in this mailing-list. I haven't really felt upset over
anything
that has been written here, merely disagreed with some of it. The only thing
I did
think was over the top, and this has more to do with language, was the usage
of
the word "rape". This word sounds a lot more vicious and nasty in English
than it
probably does in Dutch.
So, I hope no one has ended up on unfriendly terms with each other over this
discussion, and that we can all respect each others opinions.
- Martin S. Thoresen
Deanmary
Barks/Rosa differences, and Gemstone
Message 155 -
2004-04-07 at 12:12:16
I think there are a number of ways in which Barks' view of Scrooge
was different than Rosa's. I'll bring up one. In my opinion, Barks'
Scrooge had acquiring and making money as his primary concern and
going on great adventures as a secondary concern. Rosa's Scrooge
seems to put the great adventures first, and having and making money
second. Say decades ago Scrooge went on a fantastic adventure and
found this very famous diamond that then was worth 1 million dollars.
Today however it is way more valuable and is worth 1 billion dollars.
I think Barks' Scrooge would quickly sell the diamond and be thrilled
to be 999 million ahead. However Rosa's Scrooge would most likely
keep the diamond for the sentimental reason that it was a remembrance
of this great adventure.
Which interpretation do I prefer? I really don't have one as I
like them both. The important thing is that while Scrooge make be
looked at somewhat differently by Barks and Rosa, I still have no
problem seeing them being the same character. Imagine if Rosa made
stories where Scrooge was drawn as a totally different looking
character and had a vastly different personality: say he was always
poor, or was rich but always gave it all away to charity. In that
case then Rosa would be then having a character that would be Scrooge
in name only, but was actually a totally different character. However
I don't feel that Rosa or most other Duck writers present the Ducks in
such a way as they seem to be different characters. It is more like
they look at the characters from a different viewpoint than as totally
different people.
As for this debate of which reader like or dislikes Rosa, Barks,
Van Horn, etc. stories, perhaps I look at it too simply. If there is
a story by *anyone* that I don't like, I can quit reading it and go on
to a story that I like. And every Duck writer has stories I think
more highly of than others. How couldn't that be the case? After
all, if I was creative enough to write such stories, I am sure that
after I had written enough of them that there would be ones I would be
really proud of and others I would think weren't that great.
Overall I think Gemstone is doing a fantastic job. I get to buy 4
Disney comics each month and every other month a fifth title, Donald
Duck Adventures. I think the stories have been quite good so far and
have been selected well. I have never been much of a Mickey Mouse fan
and doubt I will every like Mickey stories as much as Duck stories.
That being said, I am enjoying the Mickey stories they are publishing
more than I have in a long time. When I first tried the 3 panel
stories in Donald Duck Adventures, I had mixed feelings about them.
It has only taken a few issues though for me to not only accept the
different way these stories look but to actually look forward to them.
The "Black Orb" story in issue 3 was one of the better Disney stories
I have read in a while. And this is coming from someone who has
little interest in fantasy and has never played role playing games.
My biggest complaint about Gemstone so far comes in one word:
reprints. I personally would like there to be *no* reprints in the
monthly comics. Every time there is a reprint of a Barks, Rosa, or
Van Horn story it is a waste, at least to me. To be fair Gemstone has
not gone overboard on reprints so far. However, I was not happy to
see that US #331 will reprint Rosa's, "His Majesty, McDuck". After
all, I not only have the original comic the story was in but I have a
second copy of the story in one of the 4 album collections Gladstone
II did of Rosa's earliest stories. So for me I am now spending $6.95
where 20+ pages are just wasted money for me. Since I want the other
stories though I will bite the bullet and still buy it.
In fact, if you gave me the option of having a great story
reprinted or a lousy new (new meaning new to North America) story I
would each and every time pick the lousy new one. At least the lousy
new story can provide more entertainment than the reprint. Say a
family member is going to buy me a videogame for my birthday. My two
choices are a game that is fantastic but that I already have, or a
game that is pretty crummy but I do not have. Well, neither is a
great choice, but if I had a choice I would pick the lousy game I
already did not have. At least perhaps I could get some enjoyment out
of the game if only by making fun of how poor a game it is. What at
all can I do with the great game I already have?
However, I do realize that it is important for new readers
especially to be introduced to Barks stories. After all, without his
stories, I doubt most us on this list would be Disney comic fans! I
have 3 ways that Gemstone could present reprint stories that I think
would work better.
One, reprint stories that have not been reprinted in a long time.
I realize that since Gladstone I about 20 years ago a great deal of
Barks stories have been printed in comic books. However, I believe
there are still a number of stories that have *not* been reprinted in
the last 20 years . Why not stick to reprinting stories that have not
been printed since before Gladstone I? I realize that the ones that
have not been reprinted in the past 20 years probably are not among
his best work. However I would rather have a lesser Barks story I do
not have than yet another copy of a great Barks story.
Two, along with Mickey and Friends and Donald and Friends, add a
third monthly $2.95 title. It could be titled something like "Classic
Disney Duck Stories" and be totally devoted to nothing but Barks
reprints. This way people who did not have a copy of the story would
still really want this issue, but those of us with a copy of the story
could skip it. This way you kind of have the best of both worlds.
Plus, I wouldn't have to spend $6.95 for an issue that to me is only
like getting say 40 pages due to the reprint.
Three, start making trade paperback (TPB) collections of Barks,
Rosa, Van Horn, and many others. This to me is the most surprising
thing that Gemstone *hasn't* done. Even though I may have these
stories in individual comics, I would gladly buy a collection of
stories that I could nicely display on my bookshelf and pull down at
any time. Also, this would be a fantastic way to get Disney comics
into libraries where there is a huge demand for comic books that
appeal to younger kids. Of course perhaps there is some financial or
contractual reason Gemstone has not produced TPB's yet. However, I
not only hope they are coming in the near future, but that they will
be a BIG part of Gemstone's future production.
Despite my dislike for reprints, I still think Gemstone is doing a
great job. And even if they continue reprints and don't go to TPB's,
I will support them 100% and buy just about everything they produce.
As for people on the list possibly being offended, I doubt it will
happen with me. I am used with my family and friends to often being
the person who is "out there" with non-mainstream ideas. So if people
disagree with each and every point I made, that won't bother me a bit.
In fact, if lots of people *did* agree with me, that is perhaps when I
should be worried! :) Also, what an incredibly boring place the world
would be if everyone agreed! I like living in a world where people
have many different points of view. I do not get upset when someone
disagrees with me, as there are times when I disagree with myself! :)
I know that sounds impossible, but somewhow it does seem to happen
from time to time...
Dean Rekich
was different than Rosa's. I'll bring up one. In my opinion, Barks'
Scrooge had acquiring and making money as his primary concern and
going on great adventures as a secondary concern. Rosa's Scrooge
seems to put the great adventures first, and having and making money
second. Say decades ago Scrooge went on a fantastic adventure and
found this very famous diamond that then was worth 1 million dollars.
Today however it is way more valuable and is worth 1 billion dollars.
I think Barks' Scrooge would quickly sell the diamond and be thrilled
to be 999 million ahead. However Rosa's Scrooge would most likely
keep the diamond for the sentimental reason that it was a remembrance
of this great adventure.
Which interpretation do I prefer? I really don't have one as I
like them both. The important thing is that while Scrooge make be
looked at somewhat differently by Barks and Rosa, I still have no
problem seeing them being the same character. Imagine if Rosa made
stories where Scrooge was drawn as a totally different looking
character and had a vastly different personality: say he was always
poor, or was rich but always gave it all away to charity. In that
case then Rosa would be then having a character that would be Scrooge
in name only, but was actually a totally different character. However
I don't feel that Rosa or most other Duck writers present the Ducks in
such a way as they seem to be different characters. It is more like
they look at the characters from a different viewpoint than as totally
different people.
As for this debate of which reader like or dislikes Rosa, Barks,
Van Horn, etc. stories, perhaps I look at it too simply. If there is
a story by *anyone* that I don't like, I can quit reading it and go on
to a story that I like. And every Duck writer has stories I think
more highly of than others. How couldn't that be the case? After
all, if I was creative enough to write such stories, I am sure that
after I had written enough of them that there would be ones I would be
really proud of and others I would think weren't that great.
Overall I think Gemstone is doing a fantastic job. I get to buy 4
Disney comics each month and every other month a fifth title, Donald
Duck Adventures. I think the stories have been quite good so far and
have been selected well. I have never been much of a Mickey Mouse fan
and doubt I will every like Mickey stories as much as Duck stories.
That being said, I am enjoying the Mickey stories they are publishing
more than I have in a long time. When I first tried the 3 panel
stories in Donald Duck Adventures, I had mixed feelings about them.
It has only taken a few issues though for me to not only accept the
different way these stories look but to actually look forward to them.
The "Black Orb" story in issue 3 was one of the better Disney stories
I have read in a while. And this is coming from someone who has
little interest in fantasy and has never played role playing games.
My biggest complaint about Gemstone so far comes in one word:
reprints. I personally would like there to be *no* reprints in the
monthly comics. Every time there is a reprint of a Barks, Rosa, or
Van Horn story it is a waste, at least to me. To be fair Gemstone has
not gone overboard on reprints so far. However, I was not happy to
see that US #331 will reprint Rosa's, "His Majesty, McDuck". After
all, I not only have the original comic the story was in but I have a
second copy of the story in one of the 4 album collections Gladstone
II did of Rosa's earliest stories. So for me I am now spending $6.95
where 20+ pages are just wasted money for me. Since I want the other
stories though I will bite the bullet and still buy it.
In fact, if you gave me the option of having a great story
reprinted or a lousy new (new meaning new to North America) story I
would each and every time pick the lousy new one. At least the lousy
new story can provide more entertainment than the reprint. Say a
family member is going to buy me a videogame for my birthday. My two
choices are a game that is fantastic but that I already have, or a
game that is pretty crummy but I do not have. Well, neither is a
great choice, but if I had a choice I would pick the lousy game I
already did not have. At least perhaps I could get some enjoyment out
of the game if only by making fun of how poor a game it is. What at
all can I do with the great game I already have?
However, I do realize that it is important for new readers
especially to be introduced to Barks stories. After all, without his
stories, I doubt most us on this list would be Disney comic fans! I
have 3 ways that Gemstone could present reprint stories that I think
would work better.
One, reprint stories that have not been reprinted in a long time.
I realize that since Gladstone I about 20 years ago a great deal of
Barks stories have been printed in comic books. However, I believe
there are still a number of stories that have *not* been reprinted in
the last 20 years . Why not stick to reprinting stories that have not
been printed since before Gladstone I? I realize that the ones that
have not been reprinted in the past 20 years probably are not among
his best work. However I would rather have a lesser Barks story I do
not have than yet another copy of a great Barks story.
Two, along with Mickey and Friends and Donald and Friends, add a
third monthly $2.95 title. It could be titled something like "Classic
Disney Duck Stories" and be totally devoted to nothing but Barks
reprints. This way people who did not have a copy of the story would
still really want this issue, but those of us with a copy of the story
could skip it. This way you kind of have the best of both worlds.
Plus, I wouldn't have to spend $6.95 for an issue that to me is only
like getting say 40 pages due to the reprint.
Three, start making trade paperback (TPB) collections of Barks,
Rosa, Van Horn, and many others. This to me is the most surprising
thing that Gemstone *hasn't* done. Even though I may have these
stories in individual comics, I would gladly buy a collection of
stories that I could nicely display on my bookshelf and pull down at
any time. Also, this would be a fantastic way to get Disney comics
into libraries where there is a huge demand for comic books that
appeal to younger kids. Of course perhaps there is some financial or
contractual reason Gemstone has not produced TPB's yet. However, I
not only hope they are coming in the near future, but that they will
be a BIG part of Gemstone's future production.
Despite my dislike for reprints, I still think Gemstone is doing a
great job. And even if they continue reprints and don't go to TPB's,
I will support them 100% and buy just about everything they produce.
As for people on the list possibly being offended, I doubt it will
happen with me. I am used with my family and friends to often being
the person who is "out there" with non-mainstream ideas. So if people
disagree with each and every point I made, that won't bother me a bit.
In fact, if lots of people *did* agree with me, that is perhaps when I
should be worried! :) Also, what an incredibly boring place the world
would be if everyone agreed! I like living in a world where people
have many different points of view. I do not get upset when someone
disagrees with me, as there are times when I disagree with myself! :)
I know that sounds impossible, but somewhow it does seem to happen
from time to time...
Dean Rekich
Eta Beta
Tintin (OT)
Message 156 -
2004-04-07 at 12:15:55
LARS
>I don't know Uderzo's attitude on this in detail, but Herg? certainly
>*will* care (from the aforementioned grave). Go see the documentary
>"Tintin et moi". That movie makes it very clear why nobody but Herg?
>should make Tintin stories.
This is a very interesting matter, and maybe we can even bring it
back slightly on topic...
The peculiarity of Disney production makes this question entirely
hypothetical, of course, but what if Barks had the power of "retiring"
his own characters when he retired himself, and used it, hm ?
No more Scrooge, Gyro, Magica etc. after 1967...
Belgian genius Andre' Franquin did just about that when, at the end
of the sixties, he left Spirou, taking along with him one of the best
characters in the series, the Marsupilami. True, the Marsu later took
on a series by himself, and with nice results, too, but far from
exceptional, and as for Spirou, well, I still appreciate it, but it
never entirely recovered from the blow, imho, even though the new
authors were all pretty good.
And Franquin, whom I consider among the greatest geniuses in comics
histoy, let that be clear, also "killed" Gaston Lagaffe, which is
almost unforgivable...
Authors (non-Disney, of course) possess the right of doing whatever
they like with their characters, but do they possess the *knowledge*
that another author couldn't do as well, if not better than they did
with them ?
Think again Barks and Franquin: they took on nice characters and
made them true masterpieces, creating around them those things we
call "universes" (and rant and rave about ;-)
How could Herge' *know* some new Barkses or Franquins wouldn't be
there, ready to pick up his old characters and situations, and possibly
bring them to new heights ? Did he really had the "moral" right of
"killing" Tintin, when millions around the world had "adopted" him
through the years ?
I've read several Tintin "pastiches", or apocriphal stories if you
want, and some were VERY good, clearly done with love, devotion AND
artistic skills, maybe not as good as real Herge' but good nonetheless.
The reprise of the Blake & Mortimer series, some 20 years after Jacobs'
death, is encountering a great success of both public and critics.
On the other hand, I'm ready to admit other classics have, after their
original authors' demise, withered and dragged along unimaginatively,
think Popeye...
Well, at the end of the day I really don't have an answer myself,
maybe Herge' and Schulz were right, but the problem is that we
will never know if they were wrong...
Cheers!
Eta Beta
>I don't know Uderzo's attitude on this in detail, but Herg? certainly
>*will* care (from the aforementioned grave). Go see the documentary
>"Tintin et moi". That movie makes it very clear why nobody but Herg?
>should make Tintin stories.
This is a very interesting matter, and maybe we can even bring it
back slightly on topic...
The peculiarity of Disney production makes this question entirely
hypothetical, of course, but what if Barks had the power of "retiring"
his own characters when he retired himself, and used it, hm ?
No more Scrooge, Gyro, Magica etc. after 1967...
Belgian genius Andre' Franquin did just about that when, at the end
of the sixties, he left Spirou, taking along with him one of the best
characters in the series, the Marsupilami. True, the Marsu later took
on a series by himself, and with nice results, too, but far from
exceptional, and as for Spirou, well, I still appreciate it, but it
never entirely recovered from the blow, imho, even though the new
authors were all pretty good.
And Franquin, whom I consider among the greatest geniuses in comics
histoy, let that be clear, also "killed" Gaston Lagaffe, which is
almost unforgivable...
Authors (non-Disney, of course) possess the right of doing whatever
they like with their characters, but do they possess the *knowledge*
that another author couldn't do as well, if not better than they did
with them ?
Think again Barks and Franquin: they took on nice characters and
made them true masterpieces, creating around them those things we
call "universes" (and rant and rave about ;-)
How could Herge' *know* some new Barkses or Franquins wouldn't be
there, ready to pick up his old characters and situations, and possibly
bring them to new heights ? Did he really had the "moral" right of
"killing" Tintin, when millions around the world had "adopted" him
through the years ?
I've read several Tintin "pastiches", or apocriphal stories if you
want, and some were VERY good, clearly done with love, devotion AND
artistic skills, maybe not as good as real Herge' but good nonetheless.
The reprise of the Blake & Mortimer series, some 20 years after Jacobs'
death, is encountering a great success of both public and critics.
On the other hand, I'm ready to admit other classics have, after their
original authors' demise, withered and dragged along unimaginatively,
think Popeye...
Well, at the end of the day I really don't have an answer myself,
maybe Herge' and Schulz were right, but the problem is that we
will never know if they were wrong...
Cheers!
Eta Beta
Germund Silvegren
Paul Murry cartoons
Message 157 -
2004-04-07 at 12:25:01
As some of you on the list already know, I have been a fanatic Paul
Murry collector for many years and recently I wrote a text about his
non-Disney work for the coming issue of Hogan's Alley (#12). The
issue will be out in another two weeks or so, but they have already
added some 55 extra cartoons to their webpage. Anybody interested in
Murry's art, especially the relatively unknown girlie and cartoon
art, ought to take a look at
http://cagle.slate.msn.com/hogan/webextras/home.asp
/Germund
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Small Business $15K Web Design Giveaway
http://promotions.yahoo.com/design_giveaway/
Murry collector for many years and recently I wrote a text about his
non-Disney work for the coming issue of Hogan's Alley (#12). The
issue will be out in another two weeks or so, but they have already
added some 55 extra cartoons to their webpage. Anybody interested in
Murry's art, especially the relatively unknown girlie and cartoon
art, ought to take a look at
http://cagle.slate.msn.com/hogan/webextras/home.asp
/Germund
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Small Business $15K Web Design Giveaway
http://promotions.yahoo.com/design_giveaway/
Daniel Van Eijmeren
No offense! (OT)
Message 158 -
2004-04-07 at 13:43:29
MARTIN THORESEN to me, 07-04-2004:
> It seemed to me you were more interested in discussing the personal
> motives behind the Disney artists and whether or not these were
> "right", rather than the outcome of these said artists.
I'm amazed by all the words that have been put in my mouth.
And most of all, I don't see why people should discuss *my* interests.
I've tried to state many times: I'm not important. I'm just one person.
But apparently, I AM important. People keep on discussing *me*...
At such moments I just shut off my computer, and go walk outside.
In that light, I can't be bothered.
I hope this subject is closed now.
There's no need to discuss it further.
--- Dani?l
> It seemed to me you were more interested in discussing the personal
> motives behind the Disney artists and whether or not these were
> "right", rather than the outcome of these said artists.
I'm amazed by all the words that have been put in my mouth.
And most of all, I don't see why people should discuss *my* interests.
I've tried to state many times: I'm not important. I'm just one person.
But apparently, I AM important. People keep on discussing *me*...
At such moments I just shut off my computer, and go walk outside.
In that light, I can't be bothered.
I hope this subject is closed now.
There's no need to discuss it further.
--- Dani?l
Don Rosa
DCML Digest Issue 21
Message 159 -
2004-04-07 at 17:03:55
> From: "deanmary" <deanmary at worldnet.att.net>
> Subject: Barks/Rosa differences, and Gemstone
> I think there are a number of ways in which Barks' view of Scrooge
> was different than Rosa's. I'll bring up one. In my opinion, Barks'
> Scrooge had acquiring and making money as his primary concern and
> going on great adventures as a secondary concern. Rosa's Scrooge
> seems to put the great adventures first, and having and making money
> second.
> I think Barks' Scrooge would quickly sell the diamond and be thrilled
> to be 999 million ahead. However Rosa's Scrooge would most likely
> keep the diamond for the sentimental reason that it was a remembrance
> of this great adventure.
Thanks for noticing that that's exactly how I use $crooge. I never intended
to duplicate Barks' exact style or philosophies -- from the start, I think
from the first text or interview I gave in 1987 for "the Son of the Sun", I
said that I wanted to "build on Barks' stories as a foundation", not
"duplicate Barks' stories" (as if anyone could). I knew that I could not
long tell stories of a character motivated solely by greed -- I feel greed
is the base cause for virtually every problem in the world today. (Several
years ago I would say it was the cause of *all* the problems in the world,
but now I realize that fundamentalist religion is right up there, too.) The
$crooge in my stories must have a different primary motivation, or I
couldn't go on.
(And I think I've written fundamentally this same message to various MLs
over the years. Sorry to repeat myself.)
I try to still show that he is very *cheap*. Incredibly CHEAP. And
cheap-gags can easily fill in for all the missing greed-gags. I know it's
possible for someone to not be greedy but still be a very stingy hoarder for
other reasons. I just look inna mirror.
But (as is constantly said here) there are many other writers who treat
$crooge as motivated by greed, so if there are readers who prefer that
$crooge, there's plenty of $crooge to go around.
> Subject: Barks/Rosa differences, and Gemstone
> I think there are a number of ways in which Barks' view of Scrooge
> was different than Rosa's. I'll bring up one. In my opinion, Barks'
> Scrooge had acquiring and making money as his primary concern and
> going on great adventures as a secondary concern. Rosa's Scrooge
> seems to put the great adventures first, and having and making money
> second.
> I think Barks' Scrooge would quickly sell the diamond and be thrilled
> to be 999 million ahead. However Rosa's Scrooge would most likely
> keep the diamond for the sentimental reason that it was a remembrance
> of this great adventure.
Thanks for noticing that that's exactly how I use $crooge. I never intended
to duplicate Barks' exact style or philosophies -- from the start, I think
from the first text or interview I gave in 1987 for "the Son of the Sun", I
said that I wanted to "build on Barks' stories as a foundation", not
"duplicate Barks' stories" (as if anyone could). I knew that I could not
long tell stories of a character motivated solely by greed -- I feel greed
is the base cause for virtually every problem in the world today. (Several
years ago I would say it was the cause of *all* the problems in the world,
but now I realize that fundamentalist religion is right up there, too.) The
$crooge in my stories must have a different primary motivation, or I
couldn't go on.
(And I think I've written fundamentally this same message to various MLs
over the years. Sorry to repeat myself.)
I try to still show that he is very *cheap*. Incredibly CHEAP. And
cheap-gags can easily fill in for all the missing greed-gags. I know it's
possible for someone to not be greedy but still be a very stingy hoarder for
other reasons. I just look inna mirror.
But (as is constantly said here) there are many other writers who treat
$crooge as motivated by greed, so if there are readers who prefer that
$crooge, there's plenty of $crooge to go around.
Daniel Van Eijmeren
Ringing Interplanetary Postmans / nephews and judo / some
Message 160 -
2004-04-07 at 18:37:57
I enjoy the discussion about worst Barks stories. I've seen much things
in life, but I'm really very surprised that someone expressed *love* for
'Interplanetary Postman' (US 53)! :-)
As a kid I just hated it, but that somehow has changed when I grew up.
Or it is because of researching Barks over and over again? Or because
of my growing fascination with (real-life) universes, looking at the
stars whenever the night allows me? Nowadays, I really love ALL of
Barks's space stories. And his 1971 'Blue Composition of Ducks' is one
of my favourite paintings. (It has a universal atmosphere, too.)
See: http://www.seriesam.com/barks/dp_7121_sm.jpg
In panel 7.7 of 'Interplanetary Postman', Scrooge rings and says:
"Tradition, lads! I read somewhere that the POSTMAN always rings twice!"
Is there a pun here? What tradition is Scrooge refering to?
Does someone know?
My list of (any) worst stories has always been changing. I really don't
want to brag, but even as a kid I somehow recognized the butchered Barks
stories, like 'Mythtic Mystery' (US 34). And I just couldn't like them.
Now matter how. Only after research, years later, I found out that this
in fact could have been a remarkable *classic*, if not butchered and
(apparently) mixed-up. So, I've decided to fairly give such Barks stories
the benefit of the doubt, and I gently scrapped them off my black list. :-)
I fully agree that 'Hall Of The Mermaid Queen' (US 68) looks undeveloped.
For me it's mainly the mermen and mermaids that are really remarkable.
And I like the modern 1960s wigs, in this and other Barks stories.
But I disagree with the opinion about the subject of the nephews being on
judo as a laughable thing to do. There are many Disney stories in which
the nephews do baseball, football, etc. In the Dutch 'Duckies' gag series,
for example, in which they are joined by April, June, and May.
I honestly wouldn't know what I would find the worst Barks story now,
at the moment. But I do have a list in mind of Barks stories that seem
undeveloped to me. Not reaching the highest note, as it seems. Still, I'll
always notice that Barks, despite his ever-developing qualities, always
had to be some kind of "art machine", not knowing what the impact of his
work would become. All of his stories could have been underdeveloped. He
made them to be exceptions, giving the ducks the future as it turned out
to be. That's a reason why I like the "Barks vision", which always seem to
carry a certain perspective, a smile and a wink of the eye that people just
have to... *feel*.
So, in short:
Good Barks. Bad Barks. It's all just Barks to me! :-)
--- Dani?l
"WHEN, oh, WHEN is Unca' Donald going to give up?"
hint #1: "several laps later!"
in life, but I'm really very surprised that someone expressed *love* for
'Interplanetary Postman' (US 53)! :-)
As a kid I just hated it, but that somehow has changed when I grew up.
Or it is because of researching Barks over and over again? Or because
of my growing fascination with (real-life) universes, looking at the
stars whenever the night allows me? Nowadays, I really love ALL of
Barks's space stories. And his 1971 'Blue Composition of Ducks' is one
of my favourite paintings. (It has a universal atmosphere, too.)
See: http://www.seriesam.com/barks/dp_7121_sm.jpg
In panel 7.7 of 'Interplanetary Postman', Scrooge rings and says:
"Tradition, lads! I read somewhere that the POSTMAN always rings twice!"
Is there a pun here? What tradition is Scrooge refering to?
Does someone know?
My list of (any) worst stories has always been changing. I really don't
want to brag, but even as a kid I somehow recognized the butchered Barks
stories, like 'Mythtic Mystery' (US 34). And I just couldn't like them.
Now matter how. Only after research, years later, I found out that this
in fact could have been a remarkable *classic*, if not butchered and
(apparently) mixed-up. So, I've decided to fairly give such Barks stories
the benefit of the doubt, and I gently scrapped them off my black list. :-)
I fully agree that 'Hall Of The Mermaid Queen' (US 68) looks undeveloped.
For me it's mainly the mermen and mermaids that are really remarkable.
And I like the modern 1960s wigs, in this and other Barks stories.
But I disagree with the opinion about the subject of the nephews being on
judo as a laughable thing to do. There are many Disney stories in which
the nephews do baseball, football, etc. In the Dutch 'Duckies' gag series,
for example, in which they are joined by April, June, and May.
I honestly wouldn't know what I would find the worst Barks story now,
at the moment. But I do have a list in mind of Barks stories that seem
undeveloped to me. Not reaching the highest note, as it seems. Still, I'll
always notice that Barks, despite his ever-developing qualities, always
had to be some kind of "art machine", not knowing what the impact of his
work would become. All of his stories could have been underdeveloped. He
made them to be exceptions, giving the ducks the future as it turned out
to be. That's a reason why I like the "Barks vision", which always seem to
carry a certain perspective, a smile and a wink of the eye that people just
have to... *feel*.
So, in short:
Good Barks. Bad Barks. It's all just Barks to me! :-)
--- Dani?l
"WHEN, oh, WHEN is Unca' Donald going to give up?"
hint #1: "several laps later!"
Olaf Solstrand
Barks quiz
Message 161 -
2004-04-07 at 19:05:22
> "WHEN, oh, WHEN is Unca' Donald going to give up?"
>
> hint #1: "several laps later!"
Am I allowed to guess twice? I don't really know, as I very rarely get to
read a Barks comic in its original language... But...
This sounds to me as a quote from "The Olympic Hopeful" (WDC 188).
If I'm wrong, my next guess is "The Hard Loser" (OS 29).
>
> hint #1: "several laps later!"
Am I allowed to guess twice? I don't really know, as I very rarely get to
read a Barks comic in its original language... But...
This sounds to me as a quote from "The Olympic Hopeful" (WDC 188).
If I'm wrong, my next guess is "The Hard Loser" (OS 29).
L. Schulte
Reprints/Story Styles
Message 162 -
2004-04-07 at 19:41:53
I agree with the sentiment that America needs a Don Rosa Library in large
format on non-acid paper: something for posterity!
If you gave 10 composers a theme, and told them to come back in a month
with a composition based on that theme, you would have 10 very different
works. Some might compose a piano sonata, or a string quartet, or a
trumpet concerto, or a symphony even! The original theme that you gave
theme would be transformed immensely. The same is true of the Duck
Stories: Scrooge and Donald and the "Duckburg Universe" are a compositional
theme being used by various artists in various ways. Like with our
composers, who will be taking that original theme and varying it, changing
its key, breaking it into pieces and reassembling it in different ways (cf.
Rachmaninov's famous "Rhapsody on a Theme of Paganini"!), the Duck artists
are doing the same thing, but perhaps with less freedom (i.e. you would not
eliminate Duckburg and put Uncxle Scrooge and company in Los Angeles, or
change Scrooge and Donald into human beings...unless you were Magica da
Spell!) than the composers would have.
Whether or not you like the final result depends on you: I will admit that
I do not really like any of the European stories, and that in the '80's I
was a Barks purist and did not even appreciate Don Rosa or William Van
Horn. Eventually I changed my mind, and am most enthusiastic about their
stories now, and also like things by Pat Block. I am still giving the
European artists a chance, but have not yet had an epiphany in their favor!
format on non-acid paper: something for posterity!
If you gave 10 composers a theme, and told them to come back in a month
with a composition based on that theme, you would have 10 very different
works. Some might compose a piano sonata, or a string quartet, or a
trumpet concerto, or a symphony even! The original theme that you gave
theme would be transformed immensely. The same is true of the Duck
Stories: Scrooge and Donald and the "Duckburg Universe" are a compositional
theme being used by various artists in various ways. Like with our
composers, who will be taking that original theme and varying it, changing
its key, breaking it into pieces and reassembling it in different ways (cf.
Rachmaninov's famous "Rhapsody on a Theme of Paganini"!), the Duck artists
are doing the same thing, but perhaps with less freedom (i.e. you would not
eliminate Duckburg and put Uncxle Scrooge and company in Los Angeles, or
change Scrooge and Donald into human beings...unless you were Magica da
Spell!) than the composers would have.
Whether or not you like the final result depends on you: I will admit that
I do not really like any of the European stories, and that in the '80's I
was a Barks purist and did not even appreciate Don Rosa or William Van
Horn. Eventually I changed my mind, and am most enthusiastic about their
stories now, and also like things by Pat Block. I am still giving the
European artists a chance, but have not yet had an epiphany in their favor!
Daniel Van Eijmeren
Barks quiz
Message 163 -
2004-04-07 at 19:51:09
OLAF SOLSTRAND to me, 07-04-2004:
> Am I allowed to guess twice?
People may guess a HUNDRED times, if they NEED! :-)
But remember 'Barks Quiz' rule 1:
If you fail to answer the question, you must take the PUNISHMENT! :-)
> This sounds to me as a quote from "The Olympic Hopeful" (WDC 188).
Olaf gets a bowl of grapefruit over him! Har! Har! Haw!
> If I'm wrong, my next guess is "The Hard Loser" (OS 29).
Olaf gets a CERTIFICATE ... :-)
(I'll hurry back to the house! I'm too soft-hearted to watch!)
--- Dani?l
"WHEN, oh, WHEN is Unca' Donald going to give up?"
hint #1: "several laps later!"
hint #2: "That's DEWEY!"
> Am I allowed to guess twice?
People may guess a HUNDRED times, if they NEED! :-)
But remember 'Barks Quiz' rule 1:
If you fail to answer the question, you must take the PUNISHMENT! :-)
> This sounds to me as a quote from "The Olympic Hopeful" (WDC 188).
Olaf gets a bowl of grapefruit over him! Har! Har! Haw!
> If I'm wrong, my next guess is "The Hard Loser" (OS 29).
Olaf gets a CERTIFICATE ... :-)
(I'll hurry back to the house! I'm too soft-hearted to watch!)
--- Dani?l
"WHEN, oh, WHEN is Unca' Donald going to give up?"
hint #1: "several laps later!"
hint #2: "That's DEWEY!"
Lars Jensen
Tintin (OT)
Message 164 -
2004-04-07 at 19:55:14
Eta Beta wrote:
> Franquin, whom I consider among the greatest geniuses in comics
> histoy, let that be clear, also "killed" Gaston Lagaffe, which is
> almost unforgivable...
Wasn't the plan to let others take over Gaston Lagaffe from him, when he
got ill? Was the idea dropped?
> How could Herge' *know* some new Barkses or Franquins wouldn't be
> there, ready to pick up his old characters and situations, and
> possibly bring them to new heights ?
According to "Tintin et moi", the Tintin adventures are essentially
reflections of Hergé himself. For instance, in the late 1950s he went
through a personal crisis, which is mirrored in "Tintin in Tibet"; a few
years later, he was a happy man, which is reflected in "The Castafiore
Emerald" ("Les Bijoux de la Castafiore"). The only one who could make
real Tintin stories was Hergé; when he died, the series died. Any
attempt from other creators to do Tintin would be pastiche. And,
seriously, how interesting is that?
Lars
> Franquin, whom I consider among the greatest geniuses in comics
> histoy, let that be clear, also "killed" Gaston Lagaffe, which is
> almost unforgivable...
Wasn't the plan to let others take over Gaston Lagaffe from him, when he
got ill? Was the idea dropped?
> How could Herge' *know* some new Barkses or Franquins wouldn't be
> there, ready to pick up his old characters and situations, and
> possibly bring them to new heights ?
According to "Tintin et moi", the Tintin adventures are essentially
reflections of Hergé himself. For instance, in the late 1950s he went
through a personal crisis, which is mirrored in "Tintin in Tibet"; a few
years later, he was a happy man, which is reflected in "The Castafiore
Emerald" ("Les Bijoux de la Castafiore"). The only one who could make
real Tintin stories was Hergé; when he died, the series died. Any
attempt from other creators to do Tintin would be pastiche. And,
seriously, how interesting is that?
Lars
H.W.Fluks
Barks quiz
Message 165 -
2004-04-07 at 19:56:57
Dani?l:
> "WHEN, oh, WHEN is Unca' Donald going to give up?"
>
> hint #1: "several laps later!"
> hint #2: "That's DEWEY!"
Must be the swimming contest story (WDC 71).
I'll take the tricycle, if it's all the same to you.
--Harry.
> "WHEN, oh, WHEN is Unca' Donald going to give up?"
>
> hint #1: "several laps later!"
> hint #2: "That's DEWEY!"
Must be the swimming contest story (WDC 71).
I'll take the tricycle, if it's all the same to you.
--Harry.