ARTHUR DE WOLF:
Some time ago you asked about exclamation points. In the CBL of WDC in
Color 38, I found this (undated) Barks quote:
"The editors never told me why all sentences had to end in
exclamation points, and I never asked, but I can think of three
good reasons. One: Not enough writers knew how to punctuate
correctly, so the exclamation points simplified the chore to a
foolproof system. Two: The exclamation point gave any sentence
a seeming importance. Three: Engravers making plates from the
artwork were less likely to etch out an exclamation point. They
could see that it was something the artist had put there.
A period they could mistake for something a fly had put there."
Greetings,
"Uncle Arthur still reads comics"
--- Daniel (David Bowie, 1967)
Author
Topic: 199809
(311 messages)
Daniel Van Eijmeren
Exclamation points (Arthur)
Message 121 -
1998-09-12 at 12:46:08
Stefan Diös
Marco Polo, plus more
Message 122 -
1998-09-12 at 13:12:38
DON and MATTIAS (and, later, anyone interested in translating):
Yes, I spotted the Marco Polo error while first working with "Guardians of
the Lost Library" some four or five years ago. I always enjoy the historical
facts that Don weaves into his stories, and I always try to dig up the
corresponding information from sources of my own, in order to understand as
much of the background as possible. Before the Internet, this usually meant
extensive trips to the library... but I didn't mind that, as I really like
that place!
If I find any discrepancies or have any other questions, I'll discuss them
with Don. Nowadays, with email and all, that's easy to do. Before I had
email, I used my fax. Before I had that, I used regular "snail mail". (Only
rarely the telephone... not only because of costs, but because these things
are usually easier to discuss in writing. At least for me.) How I conveyed
the information to Don in this particular case, I don't remember. But it
must have been urgent, so it's certainly possible that good people like
Mattias or Per Starback helped out via email.
Anyway, what really impressed me was the efficiency with which Don set out
to resolve the matter. I was prepared to just change the dialog somehow,
even if it meant giving up some of the original intentions... but Don
immediately put everything else aside, rewrote his script, re-arranged the
panels on three pages and even drew some new art; then sent it all to
Copenhagen with instructions to exchange these pages in the Swedish version
before publication. And it worked! The people involved at Malmo and
Copenhagen showed the same efficiency, and the new pages arrived in time to
be used. I had no idea that things could be done that smoothly at big,
bureaucratic, multi-national Egmont! This presumption turned out to be
unfair, and I really got to hand it to everybody involved.
Imagine our chagrin when the special project in which this story was to be
used was shelved (for entirely different reasons). So there it sat,
gathering dust in the Swedish offices, one of my favorite Rosa stories,
translated, hand-lettered and all, waiting for an opportunity to get
published. (I think that Denmark and Norway already had used it. We usually
publish things together to save money, and when Sweden missed the boat in
the first place, it might take some time before the next one.)
Finally, the chance arrived when I was asked to suggest something special
for the 50th anniversary issue of "Kalle Anka & C:o", due this week. Again,
it took some time to recover the corrected pages from Copenhagen... it seems
that the story was archived the way it was first used in Denmark. But again,
we did it, thanks to cooperative people in Malmo and Copenhagen. (Maybe Oslo
as well... I really don't follow every turn from my free-lance position at
home.)
Then, the project nearly collapsed a second time, since it turned out the
new pages weren't digitally prepared for the computer-setting we use in the
magazine now. So the editor had to spend some days and nights of his summer
vacation to enter the whole story manually, or whatever what he did is
called. I haven't seen the result yet, but I hope it looks good. I know for
sure that a tremendous amount of stressful work was put into it, way outside
of any regular procedures.
(Don't ask me why the almost finished, hand-lettered version wasn't used! I
recommended it, of course, but they told me it couldn't be done. I'm no
technician, and I'm glad the story came about at all.)
I should have told you this earlier, but I was busy with my previous
rambling... and that posting was even longer than I meant to, as I forgot to
delete some of the original message afterwards! Well, it could have been
worse (as we have seen on occasion). At least, most of what was left seemed
pertinent to the issue.
And while I'm at it again, I want to add that not every case works this
well. I know of at least one occasion where I thought I spotted a historical
error in another of Don's stories (it was "The Crocodile Collector"). I
changed that in the Swedish text, only to find out, after it was published,
that I was the one who misread my book! So, my methods are not foolproof in
any way!
Also, my propensity to work extra hard with the Rosa stories may come out a
little unfair to some other writers. I can't spend as much time on every
story, or discuss every detail with the writers even when I want to. I try
to if I really feel the need, but I don't even have contact with most
writers. And consistently lagging behind my deadlines, I'm almost always in
great hurry.
This can lead to my missing out of many hidden points, just because I don't
know the writer well enough. I'll go out on a limb here by sketching out a
parallel. Take the case with the homage Don Rosa made to Ted Osborne and Al
Taliaferro in "W.H.A.D.A.L.O.T.O.F.J.A.R.G.O.N.". This definitely meant
something to me, with my knowledge of Donaldistic history as well as of the
way Don Rosa works. So I kept these names intact in the Swedish version.
But what if some other writer used some similar names that I didn't
recognize, and I wasn't able to establish why they were there? I would
consider changing them. These names are very un-Duckburgish, and I might
decide they wouldn't read well in Swedish. Disturb the flow of the story,
and all that. So if I wasn't extremely sure that the names filled an
explicit and important purpose (as I indeed was in this case), I could
change them. In fact, I regularly change names of side characters to make
them look Swedish-Duckburgish. It's a big part of my job. Nobody is called
O'Hara, McSwine, or Hassan Hadda Haircut in "Kalle Anka & C:o".
Now, translators in some countries did the same with Osborne and Taliaferro.
Don Rosa was upset, and many with him. I'm sure that a majority of the
members of this list deems that deed a disaster, no less. Well, I don't
intend to flat out defend my colleagues and congratulate them for doing the
right thing. I'll make enough enemies on this list by simply stating that I
perfectly understand the way they reasoned. I don't know who these
translators are, but if I wasn't a Donaldist and a Rosa fan, I might have
done the same thing. And deep down inside, I'm not so sure what's really
best for the majority of readers... regardless of age and sophistication.
I expect some criticism for stating this opinion, even if it's not so much
an opinion as a hint that other opinions may exist. I understand that
criticism, and I'll take it. And in my work, I'll continue to do whatever I
believe is best for every specific case, after trying to consider as many
factors as I can. Mistakes will surely be made, but hopefully not always.
Wow, another long rambling! No wonder I never keep my deadlines! Now I'll
make sure it really ends here, with no quotation below...
Stefan Dios
Malmo, Sweden
--------------------------------
End of Disney comics Digest V98 Issue #225
******************************************
Yes, I spotted the Marco Polo error while first working with "Guardians of
the Lost Library" some four or five years ago. I always enjoy the historical
facts that Don weaves into his stories, and I always try to dig up the
corresponding information from sources of my own, in order to understand as
much of the background as possible. Before the Internet, this usually meant
extensive trips to the library... but I didn't mind that, as I really like
that place!
If I find any discrepancies or have any other questions, I'll discuss them
with Don. Nowadays, with email and all, that's easy to do. Before I had
email, I used my fax. Before I had that, I used regular "snail mail". (Only
rarely the telephone... not only because of costs, but because these things
are usually easier to discuss in writing. At least for me.) How I conveyed
the information to Don in this particular case, I don't remember. But it
must have been urgent, so it's certainly possible that good people like
Mattias or Per Starback helped out via email.
Anyway, what really impressed me was the efficiency with which Don set out
to resolve the matter. I was prepared to just change the dialog somehow,
even if it meant giving up some of the original intentions... but Don
immediately put everything else aside, rewrote his script, re-arranged the
panels on three pages and even drew some new art; then sent it all to
Copenhagen with instructions to exchange these pages in the Swedish version
before publication. And it worked! The people involved at Malmo and
Copenhagen showed the same efficiency, and the new pages arrived in time to
be used. I had no idea that things could be done that smoothly at big,
bureaucratic, multi-national Egmont! This presumption turned out to be
unfair, and I really got to hand it to everybody involved.
Imagine our chagrin when the special project in which this story was to be
used was shelved (for entirely different reasons). So there it sat,
gathering dust in the Swedish offices, one of my favorite Rosa stories,
translated, hand-lettered and all, waiting for an opportunity to get
published. (I think that Denmark and Norway already had used it. We usually
publish things together to save money, and when Sweden missed the boat in
the first place, it might take some time before the next one.)
Finally, the chance arrived when I was asked to suggest something special
for the 50th anniversary issue of "Kalle Anka & C:o", due this week. Again,
it took some time to recover the corrected pages from Copenhagen... it seems
that the story was archived the way it was first used in Denmark. But again,
we did it, thanks to cooperative people in Malmo and Copenhagen. (Maybe Oslo
as well... I really don't follow every turn from my free-lance position at
home.)
Then, the project nearly collapsed a second time, since it turned out the
new pages weren't digitally prepared for the computer-setting we use in the
magazine now. So the editor had to spend some days and nights of his summer
vacation to enter the whole story manually, or whatever what he did is
called. I haven't seen the result yet, but I hope it looks good. I know for
sure that a tremendous amount of stressful work was put into it, way outside
of any regular procedures.
(Don't ask me why the almost finished, hand-lettered version wasn't used! I
recommended it, of course, but they told me it couldn't be done. I'm no
technician, and I'm glad the story came about at all.)
I should have told you this earlier, but I was busy with my previous
rambling... and that posting was even longer than I meant to, as I forgot to
delete some of the original message afterwards! Well, it could have been
worse (as we have seen on occasion). At least, most of what was left seemed
pertinent to the issue.
And while I'm at it again, I want to add that not every case works this
well. I know of at least one occasion where I thought I spotted a historical
error in another of Don's stories (it was "The Crocodile Collector"). I
changed that in the Swedish text, only to find out, after it was published,
that I was the one who misread my book! So, my methods are not foolproof in
any way!
Also, my propensity to work extra hard with the Rosa stories may come out a
little unfair to some other writers. I can't spend as much time on every
story, or discuss every detail with the writers even when I want to. I try
to if I really feel the need, but I don't even have contact with most
writers. And consistently lagging behind my deadlines, I'm almost always in
great hurry.
This can lead to my missing out of many hidden points, just because I don't
know the writer well enough. I'll go out on a limb here by sketching out a
parallel. Take the case with the homage Don Rosa made to Ted Osborne and Al
Taliaferro in "W.H.A.D.A.L.O.T.O.F.J.A.R.G.O.N.". This definitely meant
something to me, with my knowledge of Donaldistic history as well as of the
way Don Rosa works. So I kept these names intact in the Swedish version.
But what if some other writer used some similar names that I didn't
recognize, and I wasn't able to establish why they were there? I would
consider changing them. These names are very un-Duckburgish, and I might
decide they wouldn't read well in Swedish. Disturb the flow of the story,
and all that. So if I wasn't extremely sure that the names filled an
explicit and important purpose (as I indeed was in this case), I could
change them. In fact, I regularly change names of side characters to make
them look Swedish-Duckburgish. It's a big part of my job. Nobody is called
O'Hara, McSwine, or Hassan Hadda Haircut in "Kalle Anka & C:o".
Now, translators in some countries did the same with Osborne and Taliaferro.
Don Rosa was upset, and many with him. I'm sure that a majority of the
members of this list deems that deed a disaster, no less. Well, I don't
intend to flat out defend my colleagues and congratulate them for doing the
right thing. I'll make enough enemies on this list by simply stating that I
perfectly understand the way they reasoned. I don't know who these
translators are, but if I wasn't a Donaldist and a Rosa fan, I might have
done the same thing. And deep down inside, I'm not so sure what's really
best for the majority of readers... regardless of age and sophistication.
I expect some criticism for stating this opinion, even if it's not so much
an opinion as a hint that other opinions may exist. I understand that
criticism, and I'll take it. And in my work, I'll continue to do whatever I
believe is best for every specific case, after trying to consider as many
factors as I can. Mistakes will surely be made, but hopefully not always.
Wow, another long rambling! No wonder I never keep my deadlines! Now I'll
make sure it really ends here, with no quotation below...
Stefan Dios
Malmo, Sweden
--------------------------------
End of Disney comics Digest V98 Issue #225
******************************************
Daniel Van Eijmeren
How much is 30 cents an hour?
Message 123 -
1998-09-12 at 13:21:31
I've always thought that Scrooge was a crook in paying his family members
only 30 cents an hour. But then, how much was 30 cents an hour in the
early 50s? Any examples of what one could buy for it at the time?
A comic cost 10 cents at the time, which would now be around 1 dollar(?).
So, would this mean Scrooge paid a salary of around 3 dollars an hour?
Greetings,
--- Daniel
only 30 cents an hour. But then, how much was 30 cents an hour in the
early 50s? Any examples of what one could buy for it at the time?
A comic cost 10 cents at the time, which would now be around 1 dollar(?).
So, would this mean Scrooge paid a salary of around 3 dollars an hour?
Greetings,
--- Daniel
Paolo Castagno
Lucca, Italy
Message 124 -
1998-09-12 at 14:13:18
Hello,
Fluks, H.W. wrote:
> I plan to go to the comic convention in Lucca, Italy, in the weekend of
> October 31. One of the people there will be L. Bottaro. Is anyone from
> this mailing list planning to go there too?
Well, I'll afford that long trip! ;-)
- Paolo
Fluks, H.W. wrote:
> I plan to go to the comic convention in Lucca, Italy, in the weekend of
> October 31. One of the people there will be L. Bottaro. Is anyone from
> this mailing list planning to go there too?
Well, I'll afford that long trip! ;-)
- Paolo
DarrellR
Do Ducks Have Teeth?
Message 125 -
1998-09-12 at 14:42:09
One striking example of Don Rosa's use of teeth for the Ducks is containe=
d
in his first Duck story - "The Son of the Sun". Donald, Scrooge, and
Flintheart all show teeth in this story. Also, the cover for U$ 219 wher=
e
this first appeared shows Uncle Scrooge and Flintheart facing off in a
great scene, with both of them showing some lovely teeth!
Darrell R.
d
in his first Duck story - "The Son of the Sun". Donald, Scrooge, and
Flintheart all show teeth in this story. Also, the cover for U$ 219 wher=
e
this first appeared shows Uncle Scrooge and Flintheart facing off in a
great scene, with both of them showing some lovely teeth!
Darrell R.
Marco Barlotti
Lucca
Message 126 -
1998-09-12 at 16:53:32
HARRY:
>I plan to go to the comic convention in Lucca, Italy, in the weekend of
>October 31. One of the people there will be L. Bottaro. Is anyone from
>this mailing list planning to go there too?
Me! Me!
But I'd like to have a "meeting day" like we did last year, and of course
it should be the day when Bottaro is there... Can Luca Boschi, the
Man-In-Charge there, give us a hint?
Marco
http://marcobar.cce.unifi.it/Comics
>I plan to go to the comic convention in Lucca, Italy, in the weekend of
>October 31. One of the people there will be L. Bottaro. Is anyone from
>this mailing list planning to go there too?
Me! Me!
But I'd like to have a "meeting day" like we did last year, and of course
it should be the day when Bottaro is there... Can Luca Boschi, the
Man-In-Charge there, give us a hint?
Marco
http://marcobar.cce.unifi.it/Comics
Eta Beta
Last from Lydia
Message 127 -
1998-09-12 at 18:38:13
BROR, STEFAN, DON R. and especially CLAUDIA, who wrote
>What I would like most would be: a translation not "looking down upon
>readers and treat them as simple-minded" but not cryptic as well, PLUS a
>post presentation with notes on the original version (notes like ""Balla
>Linda" was used to replace "Lydia the tattooed lady" for this reason.." ).
>In this way I could enjoy the story in both versions ;)
But that's EXACTLY what I mean !!!! It's not important WHERE a note is
to appear, but that there is one, if the translation is technically
impossible and, for any reason, the original text cannot be kept.
The documentation of Rosa stories in such cases wasn't as good as it could
have been, in *ITALY*, in the past, but it's getting better now, and this
I
pointed out, before it became an international case, for some reason.
It IS a matter of principle, of course, but the problem lays in purporting
*opinions* as ULTIMATE TRUTHS, while other people's opinions are presented
just as silly nonsense and so obviously and blatantly wrong, to the point
of being considered *enemies*, just for expressing them, as I've seen in
past comments.... :-(
Perhaps I exceeded in sarcasm, in my previous message, but I felt really
offended by various assuming and arrogant comments, and couldn't help it.
Thanks to all the people that commented sensibly on the matter, whithout
getting carried away as at least two of us (including myself) did :-)
And that's really it.
Cheers
Eta Beta
>What I would like most would be: a translation not "looking down upon
>readers and treat them as simple-minded" but not cryptic as well, PLUS a
>post presentation with notes on the original version (notes like ""Balla
>Linda" was used to replace "Lydia the tattooed lady" for this reason.." ).
>In this way I could enjoy the story in both versions ;)
But that's EXACTLY what I mean !!!! It's not important WHERE a note is
to appear, but that there is one, if the translation is technically
impossible and, for any reason, the original text cannot be kept.
The documentation of Rosa stories in such cases wasn't as good as it could
have been, in *ITALY*, in the past, but it's getting better now, and this
I
pointed out, before it became an international case, for some reason.
It IS a matter of principle, of course, but the problem lays in purporting
*opinions* as ULTIMATE TRUTHS, while other people's opinions are presented
just as silly nonsense and so obviously and blatantly wrong, to the point
of being considered *enemies*, just for expressing them, as I've seen in
past comments.... :-(
Perhaps I exceeded in sarcasm, in my previous message, but I felt really
offended by various assuming and arrogant comments, and couldn't help it.
Thanks to all the people that commented sensibly on the matter, whithout
getting carried away as at least two of us (including myself) did :-)
And that's really it.
Cheers
Eta Beta
Kim Christensen
Danish DD number 37
Message 128 -
1998-09-13 at 01:57:55
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
------=_NextPart_000_0025_01BDDEB1.8AE9D5C0
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
The latest issue of the Danish Donald Duck (Anders And & CO) number 37 =
(10. September 98) is marked with the works "Barks-classics" meaning =
that it is including a story by Mr. Barks. The story in question is =
called "videnskabens v=E6sen" and the story code is H 8034.
I think that this is really the story "The soul of science" (Story code =
H 80034). Story and drawing by Volker Reiche.
This story has previous been printed:
In denmark: AA88B33D (I have this issue; it is same story!!)
In France: JM 1741j (L=92esprit d=92invention) and PM 305e (Mauvaise =
note pour Donald
In the Netherlands 81-09a (De grondslag wetenschap!)
In the US DD 249b (The soul of science).
In other words; I Don not think this is a Barks story, although Egmont =
is saying so.
Does anybody have an explanation? Is better informed? Or is Egmont =
simply wrong?
Thanks
KimC
e-mail: (Email removed)
homepage: http://hjem.get2net.dk/kim.anni
------=_NextPart_000_0025_01BDDEB1.8AE9D5C0
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
The latest issue of the Danish Donald Duck (Anders And & CO) number 37 =
(10. September 98) is marked with the works "Barks-classics" meaning =
that it is including a story by Mr. Barks. The story in question is =
called "videnskabens v=E6sen" and the story code is H 8034.
I think that this is really the story "The soul of science" (Story code =
H 80034). Story and drawing by Volker Reiche.
This story has previous been printed:
In denmark: AA88B33D (I have this issue; it is same story!!)
In France: JM 1741j (L=92esprit d=92invention) and PM 305e (Mauvaise =
note pour Donald
In the Netherlands 81-09a (De grondslag wetenschap!)
In the US DD 249b (The soul of science).
In other words; I Don not think this is a Barks story, although Egmont =
is saying so.
Does anybody have an explanation? Is better informed? Or is Egmont =
simply wrong?
Thanks
KimC
e-mail: (Email removed)
homepage: http://hjem.get2net.dk/kim.anni
Stefan Diös
Eta Beta, my man!
Message 129 -
1998-09-13 at 04:14:40
>Ahhh... I'm so glad some benign Norse God took the time to enlighten us
Of course I did... I already told you that I choose to sign my name "Dios"
instead of "Dioes" for a reason, fully obvious to all our Spanish-speaking
friends... But don't despair, sometimes I deign to descend from my divine
dwellings in order to mingle with mere mortals... even such fiery foreigners
as yourself, fresh from the briny shores of Mare Nostrum...
Yes, I did keep a somewhat supercilious tone in my long posting recently.
Maybe that was uncalled for, but I did it because I'm really serious about
my point in this matter. Usually, in an argument, I can understand and
accept both sides, even if I favor one of them more or less strongly. For
example, as discussed earlier, whether to use "workers' paradise" or "McDuck
Enterprises" in "Treasure of Marco Polo": I picked the one, but could just
as well have picked the other. Some people think I should have. They may
outnumber me, and their arguments may be more valid than mine. If so, I
didn't make the best choice. Fair enough.
At other times, I can understand the opposing view, even if I have trouble
accepting it. An example of this might be substituting the names of
Taliaferro and Osborne in W.H.A.T.E.V.E.R. (I'll never get the title right
if I try), as we also have discussed. I understand why someone would do it,
but I would never want to do it myself.
But this time... this time, when it comes to leaving English text in the
story, and explaining puns in footnotes... not only could I never accept it,
but I really, honestly and truly find it next to impossible to comprehend
how anyone could endorse such a view of Disney comics. I assure you that it
is nothing personal, and it doesn't take away one iota of my respect for
you, or for your opinion in other matters. I just plain think you are wrong
here... in fact, I'm sure of it. And that's a very rare situation for me.
>HE's the maintainer of tradition, and little HE cares for the much older
>traditions that generated from foreign countries... what would Americans
>know of Disney comics? Or Italians, just picture that!
Yes, I'm a traditionalist, perhaps overly so. A stuffy old nostalgic
reactionary, like so many other Duck fans of yore. I believe that an
integral part of my job is to blend a reasonable amount of the firm Swedish
Duck tradition together with a reasonable amount of positive development.
That's not always easy, and it may be so that I'm too much in favor of the
tradition at times. But rest assured that that tradititon is huge and strong
in my country! And it's certainly based on the "much older" American
traditions, although with some national quirks that generated over the years.
I also believe I said that every translator should adhere to the traditions
in that country. That goes for Italy as well, even if it means that Scrooge
has to be the brother of Grandma, or whatever. (We have other, similar
problems in Sweden.) Luckily for you, you don't need to read the Swedish
translations. And, being the intelligent and informed reader that you are,
you can seek out Don Rosa's American originals and catch all the puns and
references in their intended grace and beauty... at least for a while more!
>even if we talk about translations in a
>language
>and country even the God admits HE doesn't know Jack about...
ECKS-kuse me?!??! WHO doesn't know Jack? Of COURSE I know Jack! My old PAL!
He's right in there between Ten and Queen! Now I'm really insulted.
Poor little man. You have offended the Gods. Now, infidel, I have thee on
the hip.
But like I said, I don't know enough about Italian Disney stories. I only
translated 6,000 pages of'em in the 80's. I'm sure you guys produced more
than that, so it's not much of a tradition... which might explain why I
never noticed any explanatory footnotes anywhere...
However, I do know that one of your traditions is that the Italian Duckburg
(Paperinopoli) is situated in America. They pay with dollars and everything.
So maybe it would be more natural (or at least a little less unnatural) if
Paperino sang in English than if Kalle Anka did it. This is an important
point. Perhaps even the bottom line of this whole discussion.
>"hic sunt leones"
Et ex ungue leonem.
>There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in
>your philosophy.
Well put, my liege. I tip my hat. Maybe a time will come when I, like Tevye
the milkman, will become aware that new winds are blowing over Duckatevka,
and that my holy traditions are crumbling. Maybe the future Disney comics
won't look anything like those I remember and love. Maybe no dialog will be
translated at all, but footnotes put in under each panel explaining what's
going on, so nothing will be missed from the original. Maybe all this will
be for the better, and maybe it will happen in Sweden, too.
But I'm afraid you will have to get rid of me first.
Stefan Dios
Malmo, Valhalla, Sweden
(I believe there is a fine picture of me in Barks' "MythTic Mystery"... or
was it those pages that got scrapped? Oh, well. Now we know why.)
Of course I did... I already told you that I choose to sign my name "Dios"
instead of "Dioes" for a reason, fully obvious to all our Spanish-speaking
friends... But don't despair, sometimes I deign to descend from my divine
dwellings in order to mingle with mere mortals... even such fiery foreigners
as yourself, fresh from the briny shores of Mare Nostrum...
Yes, I did keep a somewhat supercilious tone in my long posting recently.
Maybe that was uncalled for, but I did it because I'm really serious about
my point in this matter. Usually, in an argument, I can understand and
accept both sides, even if I favor one of them more or less strongly. For
example, as discussed earlier, whether to use "workers' paradise" or "McDuck
Enterprises" in "Treasure of Marco Polo": I picked the one, but could just
as well have picked the other. Some people think I should have. They may
outnumber me, and their arguments may be more valid than mine. If so, I
didn't make the best choice. Fair enough.
At other times, I can understand the opposing view, even if I have trouble
accepting it. An example of this might be substituting the names of
Taliaferro and Osborne in W.H.A.T.E.V.E.R. (I'll never get the title right
if I try), as we also have discussed. I understand why someone would do it,
but I would never want to do it myself.
But this time... this time, when it comes to leaving English text in the
story, and explaining puns in footnotes... not only could I never accept it,
but I really, honestly and truly find it next to impossible to comprehend
how anyone could endorse such a view of Disney comics. I assure you that it
is nothing personal, and it doesn't take away one iota of my respect for
you, or for your opinion in other matters. I just plain think you are wrong
here... in fact, I'm sure of it. And that's a very rare situation for me.
>HE's the maintainer of tradition, and little HE cares for the much older
>traditions that generated from foreign countries... what would Americans
>know of Disney comics? Or Italians, just picture that!
Yes, I'm a traditionalist, perhaps overly so. A stuffy old nostalgic
reactionary, like so many other Duck fans of yore. I believe that an
integral part of my job is to blend a reasonable amount of the firm Swedish
Duck tradition together with a reasonable amount of positive development.
That's not always easy, and it may be so that I'm too much in favor of the
tradition at times. But rest assured that that tradititon is huge and strong
in my country! And it's certainly based on the "much older" American
traditions, although with some national quirks that generated over the years.
I also believe I said that every translator should adhere to the traditions
in that country. That goes for Italy as well, even if it means that Scrooge
has to be the brother of Grandma, or whatever. (We have other, similar
problems in Sweden.) Luckily for you, you don't need to read the Swedish
translations. And, being the intelligent and informed reader that you are,
you can seek out Don Rosa's American originals and catch all the puns and
references in their intended grace and beauty... at least for a while more!
>even if we talk about translations in a
>language
>and country even the God admits HE doesn't know Jack about...
ECKS-kuse me?!??! WHO doesn't know Jack? Of COURSE I know Jack! My old PAL!
He's right in there between Ten and Queen! Now I'm really insulted.
Poor little man. You have offended the Gods. Now, infidel, I have thee on
the hip.
But like I said, I don't know enough about Italian Disney stories. I only
translated 6,000 pages of'em in the 80's. I'm sure you guys produced more
than that, so it's not much of a tradition... which might explain why I
never noticed any explanatory footnotes anywhere...
However, I do know that one of your traditions is that the Italian Duckburg
(Paperinopoli) is situated in America. They pay with dollars and everything.
So maybe it would be more natural (or at least a little less unnatural) if
Paperino sang in English than if Kalle Anka did it. This is an important
point. Perhaps even the bottom line of this whole discussion.
>"hic sunt leones"
Et ex ungue leonem.
>There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in
>your philosophy.
Well put, my liege. I tip my hat. Maybe a time will come when I, like Tevye
the milkman, will become aware that new winds are blowing over Duckatevka,
and that my holy traditions are crumbling. Maybe the future Disney comics
won't look anything like those I remember and love. Maybe no dialog will be
translated at all, but footnotes put in under each panel explaining what's
going on, so nothing will be missed from the original. Maybe all this will
be for the better, and maybe it will happen in Sweden, too.
But I'm afraid you will have to get rid of me first.
Stefan Dios
Malmo, Valhalla, Sweden
(I believe there is a fine picture of me in Barks' "MythTic Mystery"... or
was it those pages that got scrapped? Oh, well. Now we know why.)
Stefan Diös
Disney comics Digest V98 #225
Message 130 -
1998-09-13 at 04:14:43
DON R:
>But here's a situation that I had to decide on my own solution for... and
>let's see what Stefan thinks of it. In this "Lost Dutchman" story that I
>just finished, at one important point the Ducks discover a slab of rock with
>a few chiseled words in it which are vital to the story. Normally, I must
>leave this blank. But if I do that, I know that all the Egmont branches,
>with their very-limited abilities to do anything but thin black
>computer-lettering, will either show the rock as having writing on it that
>looks like it was done by a kid with a magic-marker, or they might actually
>put *type-set* "ancient carving" on the rock. I can't let that happen, but
>how can I prevent it? Well, my only solution was to put the carving on the
>rock myself, make it look like it should as ancient, crooked chisel-marks,
>but do it in English... and leave a space for a caption-box for a
>translation. This story is clearly set in Arizona, so even a stupid child
>would know that an American cowboy in Arizona is not going to chisel in
>Swedish (or whatever). But... when Egmont gets the art, they very probably
>will white-out my chiseling and you'll see the ancient chisel-letters as
>magic-marker in all but the Gladstone edition (if any). So, Stefan, what
>would you have suggested to me in that case? Did I try to do the best thing,
>even if it gets changed by the main office before it reaches you?
Yowch... I certainly see your problem! Now Eta Beta will be happy, because
we will have some original language with a footnote! I'm not sure I like it
storywise, but I do understand your reasoning, artwise. No computer could do
that text the way it should be done... at least not the computers that
Egmont use.
It's very difficult for me to handle serious stories where the Ducks are in
America. "Life of Scrooge" comes to mind, the most serious story of all when
it comes to research and settings. Two of my important principles crash
head-on here. When Donald goes to the Wild West (or China, Italy, or
Faroffistan) in an "ordinary" story, all important signs are shown in
Swedish for the sake of smoothness and comprehensibility. But your stories
demand a little more accuracy. So should Scrooge pay in dollars or kronor,
while in Arizona? I was never able to solve that puzzler to my own liking. I
think that more often than not, I use Swedish text on signs in the
background, and try to avoid specifying what the currency is.
In a case like this, I'd think the normal thing would be to leave the stone
blank, and grit your teeth when you saw the poor rendering of the text from
the computers. You wanted to avoid that, so you put in a footnote... Better?
Worse? Neither solution is perfect to me (although, since you ask me, I'm a
little more inclined to think you picked the best one, all in all). And I
can't think of any other.
And, like you say, there's a good chance it will be whited out anyway, but
the box for the caption (footnote) will still be there. So we will have both
the bad text ruining the artwork, and the footnote ruining the story. Hooray!
Why do we keep doing this, when every so often we just can't win?
Stefan Dios
Malmo, Sweden
>But here's a situation that I had to decide on my own solution for... and
>let's see what Stefan thinks of it. In this "Lost Dutchman" story that I
>just finished, at one important point the Ducks discover a slab of rock with
>a few chiseled words in it which are vital to the story. Normally, I must
>leave this blank. But if I do that, I know that all the Egmont branches,
>with their very-limited abilities to do anything but thin black
>computer-lettering, will either show the rock as having writing on it that
>looks like it was done by a kid with a magic-marker, or they might actually
>put *type-set* "ancient carving" on the rock. I can't let that happen, but
>how can I prevent it? Well, my only solution was to put the carving on the
>rock myself, make it look like it should as ancient, crooked chisel-marks,
>but do it in English... and leave a space for a caption-box for a
>translation. This story is clearly set in Arizona, so even a stupid child
>would know that an American cowboy in Arizona is not going to chisel in
>Swedish (or whatever). But... when Egmont gets the art, they very probably
>will white-out my chiseling and you'll see the ancient chisel-letters as
>magic-marker in all but the Gladstone edition (if any). So, Stefan, what
>would you have suggested to me in that case? Did I try to do the best thing,
>even if it gets changed by the main office before it reaches you?
Yowch... I certainly see your problem! Now Eta Beta will be happy, because
we will have some original language with a footnote! I'm not sure I like it
storywise, but I do understand your reasoning, artwise. No computer could do
that text the way it should be done... at least not the computers that
Egmont use.
It's very difficult for me to handle serious stories where the Ducks are in
America. "Life of Scrooge" comes to mind, the most serious story of all when
it comes to research and settings. Two of my important principles crash
head-on here. When Donald goes to the Wild West (or China, Italy, or
Faroffistan) in an "ordinary" story, all important signs are shown in
Swedish for the sake of smoothness and comprehensibility. But your stories
demand a little more accuracy. So should Scrooge pay in dollars or kronor,
while in Arizona? I was never able to solve that puzzler to my own liking. I
think that more often than not, I use Swedish text on signs in the
background, and try to avoid specifying what the currency is.
In a case like this, I'd think the normal thing would be to leave the stone
blank, and grit your teeth when you saw the poor rendering of the text from
the computers. You wanted to avoid that, so you put in a footnote... Better?
Worse? Neither solution is perfect to me (although, since you ask me, I'm a
little more inclined to think you picked the best one, all in all). And I
can't think of any other.
And, like you say, there's a good chance it will be whited out anyway, but
the box for the caption (footnote) will still be there. So we will have both
the bad text ruining the artwork, and the footnote ruining the story. Hooray!
Why do we keep doing this, when every so often we just can't win?
Stefan Dios
Malmo, Sweden
Willot Eleve Promo 98
The soul of science
Message 131 -
1998-09-13 at 15:57:14
Kim Christensen wrote:
>=20
> The latest issue of the Danish Donald Duck (Anders And & CO) number 3=
7
> (10. September 98) is marked with the works "Barks-classics" meaning
> that it is including a story by Mr. Barks. The story in question is
> called "videnskabens v=E6sen" and the story code is H 8034.
>=20
> In other words; I Don not think this is a Barks story, although Egmon=
t
> is saying so.
>=20
> Does anybody have an explanation? Is better informed? Or is Egmont
> simply wrong?
Egmont is clearly wrong. The story was published in the CBL (it was
printed in one of the hardcover books as an example of a "new" foreign
Donald story in the Barks style). So it can be considered as a
Barks-non-Barks-classic.
In France, the persons who add comments or various texts about Disney
stories are not always *experts* in Disney comics, so there are some
errors. For instance, some stories are attributed to Mario Cortes (an
artist from Comicup), his name spelled "Corte", while it is Francois
Corteggiani (a writer only), but his name is usually given as an
abbreviation: "Corte".
Francois
--------------------------------
End of Disney comics Digest V98 Issue #226
******************************************
>=20
> The latest issue of the Danish Donald Duck (Anders And & CO) number 3=
7
> (10. September 98) is marked with the works "Barks-classics" meaning
> that it is including a story by Mr. Barks. The story in question is
> called "videnskabens v=E6sen" and the story code is H 8034.
>=20
> In other words; I Don not think this is a Barks story, although Egmon=
t
> is saying so.
>=20
> Does anybody have an explanation? Is better informed? Or is Egmont
> simply wrong?
Egmont is clearly wrong. The story was published in the CBL (it was
printed in one of the hardcover books as an example of a "new" foreign
Donald story in the Barks style). So it can be considered as a
Barks-non-Barks-classic.
In France, the persons who add comments or various texts about Disney
stories are not always *experts* in Disney comics, so there are some
errors. For instance, some stories are attributed to Mario Cortes (an
artist from Comicup), his name spelled "Corte", while it is Francois
Corteggiani (a writer only), but his name is usually given as an
abbreviation: "Corte".
Francois
--------------------------------
End of Disney comics Digest V98 Issue #226
******************************************
Anders Chr. Sivebaek
Al Taliaferro and Ted osborne in W...
Message 132 -
1998-09-13 at 16:30:28
hello
In W.H.A.D.A.L.O.T.O.F.J.A.R.G.O.N. (Hope I got the tittle right) something
tells me ;-) that there is a m,entioning of Al Taliaferro and Ted Osborne,
could someone (Stefan, Don or anyone who has read the swedish or american
edition please tell me where that mentioning is?
I don't think I saw it in the danish edition, but I must say I laughed when
HD or L was told not to call his grandma grandma!
Anders Christian
(Email removed)
In W.H.A.D.A.L.O.T.O.F.J.A.R.G.O.N. (Hope I got the tittle right) something
tells me ;-) that there is a m,entioning of Al Taliaferro and Ted Osborne,
could someone (Stefan, Don or anyone who has read the swedish or american
edition please tell me where that mentioning is?
I don't think I saw it in the danish edition, but I must say I laughed when
HD or L was told not to call his grandma grandma!
Anders Christian
(Email removed)
Leonardo Gori
Lucca
Message 133 -
1998-09-14 at 00:26:15
Hi!
Harry Fluks wrote:
> I plan to go to the comic convention in Lucca, Italy, in the weekend of
> October 31. One of the people there will be L. Bottaro. Is anyone from
> this mailing list planning to go there too?
Oh, I'll be there, of course! I hope to meet all you fellows (and not only
the Italians, I hope...)
Regards
Leonardo Gori
(Email removed)
(Email removed)
(Email removed)
(Email removed)
http://i.am/leonardo/
http://hello.to/oldcomics/
http://www.agora.stm.it/L.Gori/home.htm
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shire/6371/
Harry Fluks wrote:
> I plan to go to the comic convention in Lucca, Italy, in the weekend of
> October 31. One of the people there will be L. Bottaro. Is anyone from
> this mailing list planning to go there too?
Oh, I'll be there, of course! I hope to meet all you fellows (and not only
the Italians, I hope...)
Regards
Leonardo Gori
(Email removed)
(Email removed)
(Email removed)
(Email removed)
http://i.am/leonardo/
http://hello.to/oldcomics/
http://www.agora.stm.it/L.Gori/home.htm
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shire/6371/
Stefan Diös
Disney comics Digest V98 #226
Message 134 -
1998-09-14 at 02:45:52
ETA BETA (to Claudia):
>>What I would like most would be: a translation not "looking down upon
>>readers and treat them as simple-minded" but not cryptic as well, PLUS a
>>post presentation with notes on the original version (notes like ""Balla
>>Linda" was used to replace "Lydia the tattooed lady" for this reason.." ).
>>In this way I could enjoy the story in both versions ;)
>
>But that's EXACTLY what I mean !!!! It's not important WHERE a note is
>to appear, but that there is one, if the translation is technically
>impossible and, for any reason, the original text cannot be kept.
Good thinking! Close to perfection! Just see to it that some kind of
translation is made in the story, and that the note in the following article
explains what was in the original... not the other way round!
And, to me:
>It IS a matter of principle, of course, but the problem lays in purporting
>*opinions* as ULTIMATE TRUTHS, while other people's opinions are presented
>just as silly nonsense and so obviously and blatantly wrong, to the point
>of being considered *enemies*, just for expressing them, as I've seen in
>past comments.... :-(
Uh... did I use the word "enemy"? I'm too ashamed to go back to check... In
any case, I wouldn't want to offend anyone for real, and I'm truly sorry if
what was intended as "friendly ribbings" came out the wrong way. My most
heartfelt apologies... and certainly no hard feelings from me!
>Perhaps I exceeded in sarcasm, in my previous message, but I felt really
>offended by various assuming and arrogant comments, and couldn't help it.
I invited some sarcasm, didn't I? And I appreciated that message!
CLAUDIO:
>I wonder, wether you (or other translators) have to find out all the
>references in comics by your own, or do you receive informations from the
>authors (always... sometimes... never...?)
It's extremely rare, to the point of non-existant, that some "official"
commentary is included when we receive the stories from Egmont. In my case,
as soon as I get a Rosa story, I contact Don and ask him if there's anything
in particular to which he wants to draw my attention. Usually, about a year
or more has elapsed since he wrote that story, and it's impossible for him
to recall and enumerate all the small details of which he fills his stories.
But he often reminds me to keep all the historical and geographical names of
actual people and places intact... which I strive to do anyway, but it never
hurts.
Then, when I start working with the story, I keep badgering him with
questions of every detail I find that I don't understand. Still, as we have
found out earlier, I miss about half of them... like references to movies
that I haven't seen, or Superman characters that I don't know about.
Likewise, if I know the author of another story that I feel needs
explaining, I contact that person if my time permits. And whenever I find a
reference in a story to something I recognize, I'm happy, because it
ususally means that the author has put some effort into his work. I keep
that reference if I can, or try to use something similar.
Of course, I never know how many hidden gags or references I miss. On the
other hand, sometimes I might find a place to put in one of my own...
Stefan Dios
Malmo, Sweden
>>What I would like most would be: a translation not "looking down upon
>>readers and treat them as simple-minded" but not cryptic as well, PLUS a
>>post presentation with notes on the original version (notes like ""Balla
>>Linda" was used to replace "Lydia the tattooed lady" for this reason.." ).
>>In this way I could enjoy the story in both versions ;)
>
>But that's EXACTLY what I mean !!!! It's not important WHERE a note is
>to appear, but that there is one, if the translation is technically
>impossible and, for any reason, the original text cannot be kept.
Good thinking! Close to perfection! Just see to it that some kind of
translation is made in the story, and that the note in the following article
explains what was in the original... not the other way round!
And, to me:
>It IS a matter of principle, of course, but the problem lays in purporting
>*opinions* as ULTIMATE TRUTHS, while other people's opinions are presented
>just as silly nonsense and so obviously and blatantly wrong, to the point
>of being considered *enemies*, just for expressing them, as I've seen in
>past comments.... :-(
Uh... did I use the word "enemy"? I'm too ashamed to go back to check... In
any case, I wouldn't want to offend anyone for real, and I'm truly sorry if
what was intended as "friendly ribbings" came out the wrong way. My most
heartfelt apologies... and certainly no hard feelings from me!
>Perhaps I exceeded in sarcasm, in my previous message, but I felt really
>offended by various assuming and arrogant comments, and couldn't help it.
I invited some sarcasm, didn't I? And I appreciated that message!
CLAUDIO:
>I wonder, wether you (or other translators) have to find out all the
>references in comics by your own, or do you receive informations from the
>authors (always... sometimes... never...?)
It's extremely rare, to the point of non-existant, that some "official"
commentary is included when we receive the stories from Egmont. In my case,
as soon as I get a Rosa story, I contact Don and ask him if there's anything
in particular to which he wants to draw my attention. Usually, about a year
or more has elapsed since he wrote that story, and it's impossible for him
to recall and enumerate all the small details of which he fills his stories.
But he often reminds me to keep all the historical and geographical names of
actual people and places intact... which I strive to do anyway, but it never
hurts.
Then, when I start working with the story, I keep badgering him with
questions of every detail I find that I don't understand. Still, as we have
found out earlier, I miss about half of them... like references to movies
that I haven't seen, or Superman characters that I don't know about.
Likewise, if I know the author of another story that I feel needs
explaining, I contact that person if my time permits. And whenever I find a
reference in a story to something I recognize, I'm happy, because it
ususally means that the author has put some effort into his work. I keep
that reference if I can, or try to use something similar.
Of course, I never know how many hidden gags or references I miss. On the
other hand, sometimes I might find a place to put in one of my own...
Stefan Dios
Malmo, Sweden
Heitmann, Owen James - HEIOJ001
(No subject)
Message 135 -
1998-09-14 at 04:14:03
G'day,
It's been a while since I've written anything, because of several Uni
assignments due at around the same time - which I characteristically left to
the last minute - but I've been keeping up with the digests. This first
subject's a little old by now as a result.
PER (and somebody else that I've forgotten)
About Nervous Rex and Van Horn.
Thanks for mentioning Nervous Rex (and sorry it's taken me so long to get back
about it). I'll certainly keep an eye out for any issues that might come my
way. But what I really meant (though I didn't express it very well) was that
the issue of Tracker I have was poking fun at superheroes, and as the next
issue was called "The Funny Animal Follies", I thought it might poke a few digs
at Disney, which would be interesting in light of his current employment. But,
yeah, thanks.
I was just looking at the D.U.C.K. Hunt page and saw Don Rosa's Picsou pinup
for Barks' Dangerous Disguise. Imagining that being printed in America anytime
soon! All those guns pointing at people! I don't know, it'd prompt a massacre
somewhere.
As a sort of footnote to Barks' Golden Helmet story and Rosa's sequel, I
thought I might mention that a few months ago, some old French relics (some
coins and a bottle) were found somewhere on the West Australian coast (I
think), verifying reports of an early French landing and claim on our fair
brown land. There was actually some talk at the time that there might even be a
case for France to claim the relevant portion of land as their own! I didn't
hear anything about that after a few days (I don't think the French wanted it,
quite frankly), but it added an interesting dimension to the comics. Of course,
the fact that we took it from the aborigines to start with was once again
conveniently glossed over.
Cheers,
Owen
================================
"Some time in the next ten thousand years,
A comet's gonna wipe out all trace of man.
I'm banking on it coming before
My end of year exams."
TISM, "Greg! The Stop Sign".
================================
It's been a while since I've written anything, because of several Uni
assignments due at around the same time - which I characteristically left to
the last minute - but I've been keeping up with the digests. This first
subject's a little old by now as a result.
PER (and somebody else that I've forgotten)
About Nervous Rex and Van Horn.
Thanks for mentioning Nervous Rex (and sorry it's taken me so long to get back
about it). I'll certainly keep an eye out for any issues that might come my
way. But what I really meant (though I didn't express it very well) was that
the issue of Tracker I have was poking fun at superheroes, and as the next
issue was called "The Funny Animal Follies", I thought it might poke a few digs
at Disney, which would be interesting in light of his current employment. But,
yeah, thanks.
I was just looking at the D.U.C.K. Hunt page and saw Don Rosa's Picsou pinup
for Barks' Dangerous Disguise. Imagining that being printed in America anytime
soon! All those guns pointing at people! I don't know, it'd prompt a massacre
somewhere.
As a sort of footnote to Barks' Golden Helmet story and Rosa's sequel, I
thought I might mention that a few months ago, some old French relics (some
coins and a bottle) were found somewhere on the West Australian coast (I
think), verifying reports of an early French landing and claim on our fair
brown land. There was actually some talk at the time that there might even be a
case for France to claim the relevant portion of land as their own! I didn't
hear anything about that after a few days (I don't think the French wanted it,
quite frankly), but it added an interesting dimension to the comics. Of course,
the fact that we took it from the aborigines to start with was once again
conveniently glossed over.
Cheers,
Owen
================================
"Some time in the next ten thousand years,
A comet's gonna wipe out all trace of man.
I'm banking on it coming before
My end of year exams."
TISM, "Greg! The Stop Sign".
================================