Kriton:
> in 1964, the year when, according to Don, Scrooge is supposed to have
> died.
That was 1967 (though Don only mentioned this in one drawing for a fanzine;
not in any of his stories).
--Harry.
Author
Topic: 200201
(286 messages)
Fluks, H.W.
Uncle Scrooge's money
Message 91 -
2002-01-15 at 15:11:05
Don Rosa
DCML digest, Vol 1 #799 - 5 msgs
Message 92 -
2002-01-15 at 16:03:03
From: Tommi Perkola <matope at uta.fi>
>>>>If you're grown reading italian disney, an American who both locates
Duckburg in American west coast, sets their time to fifties and admits,
he doesn't know anything about euroducs seems bit, eh, arrogant, like
"To hell with thousands of pages euroducs produced in last 50 years!"
That would be a mean way to describe my attitude, but it's still accurate.
I have never read those thousands of pages, those thousands of pages have
nothing whatsoever to do with the reason I write and draw my stories. It
doesn't matter how good those pages are or how many people have read them,
to me they are irrelevant -- they don't exist. As someone else said,
thousands of rewritten or newly-interpreted-by-other-writers stories would
not take Harry Potter out of London, Clark Kent out of
Smallville/Metropolis, or Frodo out of Middle Earth. My Duckburg is in
1950's America and any editor or reader who changes or misunderstands that
is making an error. And if a reader doesn't like that, they should avoid
reading my stories since I don't wish to make anyone unhappy.
But the point is that I am one measly writer/artist in the sea of hundreds
(and amid that ocean of thousands of pages), and others are free to write
and draw their own Duckburg interpretations for those readers who want
Duckburg to exist in a modern Never Never Land. But my interpretation is
what has formed in my own mind over 50 years, I can't change it, nor would
I wish to.
(However, I'm puzzled as to why you mention Italian Disney comics since, as
they have explained it to me, the Italian Duckburg always *has* been
clearly intended to be located in the USA, the only European comics that do
agree with the originals.)
>>>>If you're grown reading italian disney, an American who both locates
Duckburg in American west coast, sets their time to fifties and admits,
he doesn't know anything about euroducs seems bit, eh, arrogant, like
"To hell with thousands of pages euroducs produced in last 50 years!"
That would be a mean way to describe my attitude, but it's still accurate.
I have never read those thousands of pages, those thousands of pages have
nothing whatsoever to do with the reason I write and draw my stories. It
doesn't matter how good those pages are or how many people have read them,
to me they are irrelevant -- they don't exist. As someone else said,
thousands of rewritten or newly-interpreted-by-other-writers stories would
not take Harry Potter out of London, Clark Kent out of
Smallville/Metropolis, or Frodo out of Middle Earth. My Duckburg is in
1950's America and any editor or reader who changes or misunderstands that
is making an error. And if a reader doesn't like that, they should avoid
reading my stories since I don't wish to make anyone unhappy.
But the point is that I am one measly writer/artist in the sea of hundreds
(and amid that ocean of thousands of pages), and others are free to write
and draw their own Duckburg interpretations for those readers who want
Duckburg to exist in a modern Never Never Land. But my interpretation is
what has formed in my own mind over 50 years, I can't change it, nor would
I wish to.
(However, I'm puzzled as to why you mention Italian Disney comics since, as
they have explained it to me, the Italian Duckburg always *has* been
clearly intended to be located in the USA, the only European comics that do
agree with the originals.)
Tommi Perkola
DCML digest #801
Message 93 -
2002-01-15 at 17:04:56
Don Rosa wrote:
> Ah. Fair enough then. But then the question remains: if you are not trying
> to tell me that you think I should change the way I view it, then why do
> you say I'm arrogant? You're complaining about something that you don't
> want me to change? Then why bring it up? I still am missing your point.
Well, right now it would be ridiculous to take all the comics you've
drawn back, and mold them to the euroducks tradition. Of course these
stories are here to stay, and old jerks like me have to accept that.
Besides, the stories are rather good.
Anyway, what used to annoy me a little was how Aku Ankka readily
excepted this Rosan view of duck history, and threw away the old
traditions. Actually I can imagine why they did it.
Aku Ankka along with other Gutenberghus-ducks showed quite a little
quality since mid-sixties. The real happening in euroducks was in Italy
at this period. However AA was very popular here in Finland, partly
because people remembered the good old Barkses and Murrys, partly
because people were used to read it as kids.
A weekly magazine can't survive for long by reruns and low quality new
material. Even when the quality rose, fans were sceptical if the
magazine would ever be interesting again.
Then came Rosa, kaboom! I remember reading the two first Rosa comics, I
never expected to see anything like that in AA. (By the way, at the same
time Tello quit, which was good, very good.) Duckfans in Finland went
completely nuts, and AA:s prestice began to rise again. Rosa saved AA.
But strange things happened. Rosa began to draw something every duckfan
dreamed to read some day: something that will fill the gaps in history
of family Duck. For our surprise, this history was based solely on
Barks' stories, and was very inconsistent with the history of euroduks.
I remember myself as a kid reading through the AA-magazines and pocket
books drawing a Duck family tree and Scrooge's history.
At this point it was too late. AA depended on Rosa, and before the
breakthrough of internet with these mailing lists and fan sites old
school duckfans couldn't do anything but look how things happened.
Now Rosa competes with Barks of the title of the best duck artist ever,
frequently winning the polls, I think.
For us old duckfans this is something we just have to accept, and
accustom us to the fact, that AA no more supports the older view of Duck
universum. Boohoo ;-)
--
http://www.tampere.fi/ytoteto/viisto_kuvat/jpg/21027.jpg
> Ah. Fair enough then. But then the question remains: if you are not trying
> to tell me that you think I should change the way I view it, then why do
> you say I'm arrogant? You're complaining about something that you don't
> want me to change? Then why bring it up? I still am missing your point.
Well, right now it would be ridiculous to take all the comics you've
drawn back, and mold them to the euroducks tradition. Of course these
stories are here to stay, and old jerks like me have to accept that.
Besides, the stories are rather good.
Anyway, what used to annoy me a little was how Aku Ankka readily
excepted this Rosan view of duck history, and threw away the old
traditions. Actually I can imagine why they did it.
Aku Ankka along with other Gutenberghus-ducks showed quite a little
quality since mid-sixties. The real happening in euroducks was in Italy
at this period. However AA was very popular here in Finland, partly
because people remembered the good old Barkses and Murrys, partly
because people were used to read it as kids.
A weekly magazine can't survive for long by reruns and low quality new
material. Even when the quality rose, fans were sceptical if the
magazine would ever be interesting again.
Then came Rosa, kaboom! I remember reading the two first Rosa comics, I
never expected to see anything like that in AA. (By the way, at the same
time Tello quit, which was good, very good.) Duckfans in Finland went
completely nuts, and AA:s prestice began to rise again. Rosa saved AA.
But strange things happened. Rosa began to draw something every duckfan
dreamed to read some day: something that will fill the gaps in history
of family Duck. For our surprise, this history was based solely on
Barks' stories, and was very inconsistent with the history of euroduks.
I remember myself as a kid reading through the AA-magazines and pocket
books drawing a Duck family tree and Scrooge's history.
At this point it was too late. AA depended on Rosa, and before the
breakthrough of internet with these mailing lists and fan sites old
school duckfans couldn't do anything but look how things happened.
Now Rosa competes with Barks of the title of the best duck artist ever,
frequently winning the polls, I think.
For us old duckfans this is something we just have to accept, and
accustom us to the fact, that AA no more supports the older view of Duck
universum. Boohoo ;-)
--
http://www.tampere.fi/ytoteto/viisto_kuvat/jpg/21027.jpg
Francesco Spreafico
Where Scrooge lives
Message 94 -
2002-01-15 at 17:30:40
From: "Tommi Perkola" <matope at uta.fi>
> That was the point, about which I criticized Rosa about a year ago in
> sfnet.harrastus.kulttuuri.sarjakuvat. In European tradition Duckburg is
> located "somewhere near", or in its own universum.
Nope, in *your* tradition, maybe. But since Italy is in Europe, and since
Italy, after all, is and has been for quite a while the country producing
most (or almost) Disney comics I can say that Duckburg is located in the US
even for Europe.
Sure, "Calisota" may not exist (so much as "Calidornia"), but no doubt about
the fact that they've always been in the US. Even though sometimes, in old
Italian stories, those US looked more like Milan's neighborhood, but they
still were US, because so it was written.
> This is something a US citizen might not think about, but while you're
> reading daily comics like Peanuts or Dilbert, you don't specifically
> locate them anywhere. These comics are entertaining, because they
> resemble readers' daily life in humorous way, and adding too many strict
> indications of stories' milieu or geographical situation would spoil
> their universality.
I've not been spoiled the slightest bit. Actually, for example, I got used
to the Dollar since I was a kid and this, incidentally, helped me now in
getting used to the Euro, since they're almost 1:1.
> For someone who lives in the same country this isn't a problem, but in
> another country or continent it is. Now disney comics are all originally
> situated in USA, but majority of them both read and drawn abroad. It is
> said, that italian Duckburg is an amalgamation of an American big city
> and italian smalltown. For example Chierchini's Duckburg looks more like
> Paris than any American city.
But it has a sign on it names "New York" (so to say). This might mislead
children in thinking that all the cities in the world look alike, but, after
all, is it so wrong?
> If you're grown reading italian disney, an American who both locates
> Duckburg in American west coast,
In Italian disney comics Duckburg has always been on US' west coast (except
maybe in some minor stories). Just think at Scarpa's "Imperatore della
Calidornia", where we see in the splash panel Duckburg and Micetown (and
even Bucky's town!) clearly set in California.
--
Francesco
> That was the point, about which I criticized Rosa about a year ago in
> sfnet.harrastus.kulttuuri.sarjakuvat. In European tradition Duckburg is
> located "somewhere near", or in its own universum.
Nope, in *your* tradition, maybe. But since Italy is in Europe, and since
Italy, after all, is and has been for quite a while the country producing
most (or almost) Disney comics I can say that Duckburg is located in the US
even for Europe.
Sure, "Calisota" may not exist (so much as "Calidornia"), but no doubt about
the fact that they've always been in the US. Even though sometimes, in old
Italian stories, those US looked more like Milan's neighborhood, but they
still were US, because so it was written.
> This is something a US citizen might not think about, but while you're
> reading daily comics like Peanuts or Dilbert, you don't specifically
> locate them anywhere. These comics are entertaining, because they
> resemble readers' daily life in humorous way, and adding too many strict
> indications of stories' milieu or geographical situation would spoil
> their universality.
I've not been spoiled the slightest bit. Actually, for example, I got used
to the Dollar since I was a kid and this, incidentally, helped me now in
getting used to the Euro, since they're almost 1:1.
> For someone who lives in the same country this isn't a problem, but in
> another country or continent it is. Now disney comics are all originally
> situated in USA, but majority of them both read and drawn abroad. It is
> said, that italian Duckburg is an amalgamation of an American big city
> and italian smalltown. For example Chierchini's Duckburg looks more like
> Paris than any American city.
But it has a sign on it names "New York" (so to say). This might mislead
children in thinking that all the cities in the world look alike, but, after
all, is it so wrong?
> If you're grown reading italian disney, an American who both locates
> Duckburg in American west coast,
In Italian disney comics Duckburg has always been on US' west coast (except
maybe in some minor stories). Just think at Scarpa's "Imperatore della
Calidornia", where we see in the splash panel Duckburg and Micetown (and
even Bucky's town!) clearly set in California.
--
Francesco
Fluks, H.W.
Where Scrooge lives
Message 95 -
2002-01-15 at 17:50:26
Francesco Spreafico:
> But it has a sign on it names "New York" (so to say). This
> might mislead
> children in thinking that all the cities in the world look
> alike, but, after all, is it so wrong?
Yes, fortunately it is very wrong! American cities may look alike. But in
spite of what our governments are aiming at, I'm glad to say that Florence
does not look like Amsterdam at all. Not does Prague look like Barcelona.
Not even from a distance.
--Harry.
> But it has a sign on it names "New York" (so to say). This
> might mislead
> children in thinking that all the cities in the world look
> alike, but, after all, is it so wrong?
Yes, fortunately it is very wrong! American cities may look alike. But in
spite of what our governments are aiming at, I'm glad to say that Florence
does not look like Amsterdam at all. Not does Prague look like Barcelona.
Not even from a distance.
--Harry.
Dan Shane
Where Scrooge lives
Message 96 -
2002-01-15 at 17:59:33
TOMMI WRITES:
> If you're grown reading italian disney, an American who both locates
> Duckburg in American west coast, sets their time to fifties and admits,
> he doesn't know anything about euroducs seems bit, eh, arrogant, like
> "To hell with thousands of pages euroducs produced in last 50 years!"
AND I REPLY:
While I will be the very first to agree that Americans in general seem to
think they are the only people on the planet, I think you're being harsh to
call Don arrogant for his choice of setting his stories where and when he
wants. I perceive that decision as having absolutely nothing to do with a
nationalistic or overly patriotic spirit, but simply a matter of simple
geography and time.
$crooge was created, not by countless Europeans or even an international
committee, but by a single man who placed his newly thought up character
squarely on the West coast of North America. He wrote plenty of stories
that made it pretty clear where and when $crooge was meant to exist, and
$crooge's travels reinforced that setting. Anyone else who wrote stories
based on that character changed $crooge himself if he or she said he lived
elsewhere.
Should we accept OZ sequels that say Dorothy was not really from Kansas, and
that OZ is in fact now located in Siberia?
How about moving Middle-Earth to Argentina? I'll bet there are folks in
South America who would like to pen stories about hobbits with Hispanic
accents. The comparison may sound ridiculous, but the truth is that it
doesn't matter if we are talking about "history" thousands of years old, or
just half a century. The creator had a particular setting in mind, and
anyone else who buys the "rights" to adapt a character to his own whims is
changing the original character into a new person. Even Don's stories come
perilously close to that on rare occasions, but only to my perception. That
is my problem, not his.
Those thousands of pages of "euroducs" are about a $crooge I never knew.
I'm not saying that as an American; I'm saying it as someone who grew up
reading comics written and drawn by Carl Barks. It is not arrogant to say I
favor that duck over later incarnations, it is simply a matter of taste.
Dan Shane
(danshane at bellsouth.net)
> If you're grown reading italian disney, an American who both locates
> Duckburg in American west coast, sets their time to fifties and admits,
> he doesn't know anything about euroducs seems bit, eh, arrogant, like
> "To hell with thousands of pages euroducs produced in last 50 years!"
AND I REPLY:
While I will be the very first to agree that Americans in general seem to
think they are the only people on the planet, I think you're being harsh to
call Don arrogant for his choice of setting his stories where and when he
wants. I perceive that decision as having absolutely nothing to do with a
nationalistic or overly patriotic spirit, but simply a matter of simple
geography and time.
$crooge was created, not by countless Europeans or even an international
committee, but by a single man who placed his newly thought up character
squarely on the West coast of North America. He wrote plenty of stories
that made it pretty clear where and when $crooge was meant to exist, and
$crooge's travels reinforced that setting. Anyone else who wrote stories
based on that character changed $crooge himself if he or she said he lived
elsewhere.
Should we accept OZ sequels that say Dorothy was not really from Kansas, and
that OZ is in fact now located in Siberia?
How about moving Middle-Earth to Argentina? I'll bet there are folks in
South America who would like to pen stories about hobbits with Hispanic
accents. The comparison may sound ridiculous, but the truth is that it
doesn't matter if we are talking about "history" thousands of years old, or
just half a century. The creator had a particular setting in mind, and
anyone else who buys the "rights" to adapt a character to his own whims is
changing the original character into a new person. Even Don's stories come
perilously close to that on rare occasions, but only to my perception. That
is my problem, not his.
Those thousands of pages of "euroducs" are about a $crooge I never knew.
I'm not saying that as an American; I'm saying it as someone who grew up
reading comics written and drawn by Carl Barks. It is not arrogant to say I
favor that duck over later incarnations, it is simply a matter of taste.
Dan Shane
(danshane at bellsouth.net)
Francesco Spreafico
Where Scrooge lives
Message 97 -
2002-01-15 at 18:07:31
From: "Fluks, H.W." <H.W.Fluks at kpn.com>
> Yes, fortunately it is very wrong! American cities may look alike. But in
> spite of what our governments are aiming at, I'm glad to say that Florence
> does not look like Amsterdam at all. Not does Prague look like Barcelona.
> Not even from a distance.
Of course that's not what I meant ;-) No big (artistic) cities, but
"average" towns look alike all over the world. Actually Don Rosa's Duckburg
might as well be 'round the corner here, there's nothing particularly
different.
--
Francesco
> Yes, fortunately it is very wrong! American cities may look alike. But in
> spite of what our governments are aiming at, I'm glad to say that Florence
> does not look like Amsterdam at all. Not does Prague look like Barcelona.
> Not even from a distance.
Of course that's not what I meant ;-) No big (artistic) cities, but
"average" towns look alike all over the world. Actually Don Rosa's Duckburg
might as well be 'round the corner here, there's nothing particularly
different.
--
Francesco
Kari Lepola
Euros and duck universe
Message 98 -
2002-01-15 at 18:12:44
Don Rosa wrote:
> I foresee some problems with my friends in Finland or Norway when they
> start putting Euro symbols on *my* Money Bins. I will suggest they switch
> to the initials of $crooge McDuck (in their translations) such as they use
> in other European countries, or I will be upset. They can put the Euro
> symbols on the 99.999% of the stories that are *not* mine.
Well, this isn't really a problem in Finland anyway, because the symbol
on the money bin has (at least as far as I know) always been RA meaning
Roope Ankka, which is Scrooge's name in finish. I don't know how
did this start but probably they figured that the $ on the bin
translated
nicely into meaning Scrooge. Putting $ in a kid's comic in 1950's
would not have been obvious and maybe they wanted also to be closer to
the original and didn't use mk meaning markka (FIM).
I think that there is really much more need to use euro when ducks
talk about money in a normal everyday sence and it isn't any special
money or the currency has no importance for the story. After all, Donald
Duck is still a comic for kids and it would seem strange if the money
was still markkas, say ten years from now on.
As for the consistency of the stories, well Don is always a special case
and his stories do happen in the 1950's in USA, and they will be
translated carefully, because a big part of his stories greatness is in
the details (them being always meticulous and historically correct and
the
plot being flawless), but as for the more "mass produced" stories, the
money has been markka and will (probably) be euro and the location of
Duckburg will be undefined, (exept when defined, then it is USA, [except
if it needs to be somewhere else])
Don's Ducks live always in the 1950's, but other stories quite often use
for example modern high tech gadgets, and happen in the present,
which moves, but since the past also moves, Hewey, Dewey and Lowey are
always kids in school and the bin's content hasn't been moved ever.
The duck universe can change quite a lot even in a single weekly and I
don't see there beeing any problem with this. For a comic this is
natural
thing. So Scrooge's first coin is a dime and he does his business in
dollars, but in the next story he might by his ice cream with euros
(!what a horrible way to throw away money! :-) He might even in a one
story change money in order to travel to Europe and then in the next one
alreay live in Europe.
As for kid reading these comics, I would say that it is totally logical
for the money in the comic to be in the same currency as their pocket
money.
And finally it will at least be more locical when $crooge pays Donald
30 cents per hour :-), but what will they do if Don writes a story
where ducks travel to Finland and $crooge has to pay something which
costs over 100 cents ??!!??
Kari Lepola
> I foresee some problems with my friends in Finland or Norway when they
> start putting Euro symbols on *my* Money Bins. I will suggest they switch
> to the initials of $crooge McDuck (in their translations) such as they use
> in other European countries, or I will be upset. They can put the Euro
> symbols on the 99.999% of the stories that are *not* mine.
Well, this isn't really a problem in Finland anyway, because the symbol
on the money bin has (at least as far as I know) always been RA meaning
Roope Ankka, which is Scrooge's name in finish. I don't know how
did this start but probably they figured that the $ on the bin
translated
nicely into meaning Scrooge. Putting $ in a kid's comic in 1950's
would not have been obvious and maybe they wanted also to be closer to
the original and didn't use mk meaning markka (FIM).
I think that there is really much more need to use euro when ducks
talk about money in a normal everyday sence and it isn't any special
money or the currency has no importance for the story. After all, Donald
Duck is still a comic for kids and it would seem strange if the money
was still markkas, say ten years from now on.
As for the consistency of the stories, well Don is always a special case
and his stories do happen in the 1950's in USA, and they will be
translated carefully, because a big part of his stories greatness is in
the details (them being always meticulous and historically correct and
the
plot being flawless), but as for the more "mass produced" stories, the
money has been markka and will (probably) be euro and the location of
Duckburg will be undefined, (exept when defined, then it is USA, [except
if it needs to be somewhere else])
Don's Ducks live always in the 1950's, but other stories quite often use
for example modern high tech gadgets, and happen in the present,
which moves, but since the past also moves, Hewey, Dewey and Lowey are
always kids in school and the bin's content hasn't been moved ever.
The duck universe can change quite a lot even in a single weekly and I
don't see there beeing any problem with this. For a comic this is
natural
thing. So Scrooge's first coin is a dime and he does his business in
dollars, but in the next story he might by his ice cream with euros
(!what a horrible way to throw away money! :-) He might even in a one
story change money in order to travel to Europe and then in the next one
alreay live in Europe.
As for kid reading these comics, I would say that it is totally logical
for the money in the comic to be in the same currency as their pocket
money.
And finally it will at least be more locical when $crooge pays Donald
30 cents per hour :-), but what will they do if Don writes a story
where ducks travel to Finland and $crooge has to pay something which
costs over 100 cents ??!!??
Kari Lepola
Anders Christian Siveb¾k
#798
Message 99 -
2002-01-15 at 18:14:36
Hi all
>
>From: "Kenneth Glendinning" <neth80 at hotmail.com>
>
>What a stupid thing to do, why in the hell would you change the country
>that
>Uncle
>Scrooge lives in?
First - you don't have to swear to point out your questions.
secondly - the tradition of some european duck comics have the ducks and
mice living in their country.
Mainly not to confuse the readers - who are/were considered to be kids.
This is also the reason that so many names of countries were changed in
our publications.
About the Duckish sayings, or what we call it.
We of course also have those classic expressions with a Scrooge McDuck and
such.
We sometimes use the Ole Opfinder instead of Gyro, Ole is a charcter
(Skalman) in the comic Bamse, made by the swede Rune Andreason.
Moreover we say pure Donald Duck about something if it's crazy.
A politican accused the government of suffering from the cousin
Gladstone-effect (They were having success) (Svend Auken, from social
democratic party, how many years ago was that? )
Another politician once called the European Parliament a Mickey Mouse
parliament, insinuating that it wasn't a real parliament, unable to take
decissions and such. (Ritt Bjerregaard, to the ones wo are interested)
The 4th nephew, called Phooey or Barks is called Ups in Denmark, or Nyrup
- perhaps inspired from our former prime minister.
Hilsen/Yours
Anders Christian Siveb?k
Donaldist
>
>From: "Kenneth Glendinning" <neth80 at hotmail.com>
>
>What a stupid thing to do, why in the hell would you change the country
>that
>Uncle
>Scrooge lives in?
First - you don't have to swear to point out your questions.
secondly - the tradition of some european duck comics have the ducks and
mice living in their country.
Mainly not to confuse the readers - who are/were considered to be kids.
This is also the reason that so many names of countries were changed in
our publications.
About the Duckish sayings, or what we call it.
We of course also have those classic expressions with a Scrooge McDuck and
such.
We sometimes use the Ole Opfinder instead of Gyro, Ole is a charcter
(Skalman) in the comic Bamse, made by the swede Rune Andreason.
Moreover we say pure Donald Duck about something if it's crazy.
A politican accused the government of suffering from the cousin
Gladstone-effect (They were having success) (Svend Auken, from social
democratic party, how many years ago was that? )
Another politician once called the European Parliament a Mickey Mouse
parliament, insinuating that it wasn't a real parliament, unable to take
decissions and such. (Ritt Bjerregaard, to the ones wo are interested)
The 4th nephew, called Phooey or Barks is called Ups in Denmark, or Nyrup
- perhaps inspired from our former prime minister.
Hilsen/Yours
Anders Christian Siveb?k
Donaldist
Fluks, H.W.
Euros and duck universe
Message 100 -
2002-01-15 at 19:11:29
> From: Tommi Perkola [mailto:matope at uta.fi]
> Sent: zondag 13 januari 2002 14:44
> In the first pocket books translators seem to avoid to mention the
> currency used or the exacts sums. Ducks don't talk about markkas, but
> "Maksa heti lainaamasi kaksi rahaa!" in pb 14, where currency is just
> "raha" =money, sometimes "killinki" or "kolikko" =coins.
>
> Is this only a Finnish phenomenon?
In Holland, the new pocket books have a money bin with a big euro-sign on
it. And the Ducks are clearly talking about euros all the time.
They even have a story about a 25-euro bill. I guess they didn't realise,
last year, that there is no such thing as a 25-euro bill! (There has always
been a 25-guilder bill...)
--Harry.
(Now owner of Dutch and German euros - I got the German ones from Germany
itself, as change with the 2 Disney comics that I bought with my last
Deutschmarks.)
> Sent: zondag 13 januari 2002 14:44
> In the first pocket books translators seem to avoid to mention the
> currency used or the exacts sums. Ducks don't talk about markkas, but
> "Maksa heti lainaamasi kaksi rahaa!" in pb 14, where currency is just
> "raha" =money, sometimes "killinki" or "kolikko" =coins.
>
> Is this only a Finnish phenomenon?
In Holland, the new pocket books have a money bin with a big euro-sign on
it. And the Ducks are clearly talking about euros all the time.
They even have a story about a 25-euro bill. I guess they didn't realise,
last year, that there is no such thing as a 25-euro bill! (There has always
been a 25-guilder bill...)
--Harry.
(Now owner of Dutch and German euros - I got the German ones from Germany
itself, as change with the 2 Disney comics that I bought with my last
Deutschmarks.)
Fluks, H.W.
Where Scrooge lives
Message 101 -
2002-01-15 at 19:24:17
Francesco Spreafico:
> > I'm glad to say that Florence
> > does not look like Amsterdam at all.
> Of course that's not what I meant ;-) No big (artistic) cities, but
> "average" towns look alike all over the world.
Maybe it's the way one looks at them, but I still think cities are very
different. I look at them with a geographical view, but I guess other people
will notice the difference too.
Where American (and some German) cities have tall sky scrapers concentrated
in the middle, the Dutch cities have them spread all over the town, and in
most cases *not* in the middle. Where Italian cities often have a lot of
church towers, Dutch cities only have a few.
And on a micro-view: the suburbal looks of the environment as shown to us in
the old Barks stories is quite different from what we see here. In Holland
we have almost no wooden houses. And our gardens are much smaller. And we
have bike paths along the roads. (And we don't have deserts etc. - but this
thread was about cities...)
I don't think Barks's Duckburg could be near where I live.
Still, the Dutch tradition is that Duckburg (Duckstad) is nearby. Where they
have our currency, and our language. Where people live in the present. They
don't let any Rosa change that tradition. So I expect to see the euro sign
in Scrooge's bin in the next Rosa story.
--Harry.
> > I'm glad to say that Florence
> > does not look like Amsterdam at all.
> Of course that's not what I meant ;-) No big (artistic) cities, but
> "average" towns look alike all over the world.
Maybe it's the way one looks at them, but I still think cities are very
different. I look at them with a geographical view, but I guess other people
will notice the difference too.
Where American (and some German) cities have tall sky scrapers concentrated
in the middle, the Dutch cities have them spread all over the town, and in
most cases *not* in the middle. Where Italian cities often have a lot of
church towers, Dutch cities only have a few.
And on a micro-view: the suburbal looks of the environment as shown to us in
the old Barks stories is quite different from what we see here. In Holland
we have almost no wooden houses. And our gardens are much smaller. And we
have bike paths along the roads. (And we don't have deserts etc. - but this
thread was about cities...)
I don't think Barks's Duckburg could be near where I live.
Still, the Dutch tradition is that Duckburg (Duckstad) is nearby. Where they
have our currency, and our language. Where people live in the present. They
don't let any Rosa change that tradition. So I expect to see the euro sign
in Scrooge's bin in the next Rosa story.
--Harry.
Francesco Spreafico
Where Scrooge lives
Message 102 -
2002-01-15 at 19:49:33
From: "Fluks, H.W." <H.W.Fluks at kpn.com>
> Maybe it's the way one looks at them, but I still think cities are very
> different. I look at them with a geographical view, but I guess other
people
> will notice the difference too.
[cut]
In details towns are different, right. But in details. Once I've been in
Strasburg... Hadn't it been for the people speaking a language that was
Greek to me, I wouldn't have noticed I was abroad.
And anyway in wasn't this I was writing about, I just meant to say that...
most towns look alike. They've got streets, curbs, blocks of houses (more or
less high), courthouses, stations, stores, supermarkets, bridges... and
mostly they look alike. Maybe I'm biased because there's no Artistic city
hereabouts. The Big City here is Milan, and it's sure got nothing
particular.
> Still, the Dutch tradition is that Duckburg (Duckstad) is nearby. Where
they
> have our currency, and our language. Where people live in the present.
They
> don't let any Rosa change that tradition. So I expect to see the euro sign
> in Scrooge's bin in the next Rosa story.
Too bad. Not for the Euro now, of course it'll have the Euro now. Too bad
that you have such tradition, too bad they started it. Because it was caused
by an unasked for adaptation.
And adaptations are *always* bad, by definition. Just as translations. But
translations are unfortunately necessary, adaptations (except in a very few
cases) are not, and they always turn Art into something different from the
original (and 99.99% of the times, worse).
--
Francesco
> Maybe it's the way one looks at them, but I still think cities are very
> different. I look at them with a geographical view, but I guess other
people
> will notice the difference too.
[cut]
In details towns are different, right. But in details. Once I've been in
Strasburg... Hadn't it been for the people speaking a language that was
Greek to me, I wouldn't have noticed I was abroad.
And anyway in wasn't this I was writing about, I just meant to say that...
most towns look alike. They've got streets, curbs, blocks of houses (more or
less high), courthouses, stations, stores, supermarkets, bridges... and
mostly they look alike. Maybe I'm biased because there's no Artistic city
hereabouts. The Big City here is Milan, and it's sure got nothing
particular.
> Still, the Dutch tradition is that Duckburg (Duckstad) is nearby. Where
they
> have our currency, and our language. Where people live in the present.
They
> don't let any Rosa change that tradition. So I expect to see the euro sign
> in Scrooge's bin in the next Rosa story.
Too bad. Not for the Euro now, of course it'll have the Euro now. Too bad
that you have such tradition, too bad they started it. Because it was caused
by an unasked for adaptation.
And adaptations are *always* bad, by definition. Just as translations. But
translations are unfortunately necessary, adaptations (except in a very few
cases) are not, and they always turn Art into something different from the
original (and 99.99% of the times, worse).
--
Francesco
The NightRaven
Where Scrooge lives
Message 103 -
2002-01-15 at 19:59:52
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tommi Perkola" <matope at uta.fi>
To: "Ari Seppi" <ariseppi at koti.soon.fi>
Cc: <dcml at stp.ling.uu.se>
Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2002 8:32 AM
Subject: Re: Where Scrooge lives
> Ari Seppi wrote:
> > To summarize my post: Rosa ducks in the US, others where ever.
>
> That was the point, about which I criticized Rosa about a year ago in
> sfnet.harrastus.kulttuuri.sarjakuvat. In European tradition Duckburg is
> located "somewhere near", or in its own universum.
>
> This is something a US citizen might not think about, but while you're
> reading daily comics like Peanuts or Dilbert, you don't specifically
> locate them anywhere. These comics are entertaining, because they
> resemble readers' daily life in humorous way, and adding too many strict
> indications of stories' milieu or geographical situation would spoil
> their universality.
>
> For someone who lives in the same country this isn't a problem, but in
> another country or continent it is. Now disney comics are all originally
> situated in USA, but majority of them both read and drawn abroad. It is
> said, that italian Duckburg is an amalgamation of an American big city
> and italian smalltown. For example Chierchini's Duckburg looks more like
> Paris than any American city.
>
> If you're grown reading italian disney, an American who both locates
> Duckburg in American west coast, sets their time to fifties and admits,
> he doesn't know anything about euroducs seems bit, eh, arrogant, like
> "To hell with thousands of pages euroducs produced in last 50 years!"
>
> --
What I think is arrogant is the attitude of European writers that they can
simply take and change completely the background and location of other
peoples characters. Just because they're allowed to, and that it appeals
to readers doesn't make it right.
As a Scandinavian, (I don't realy consider Scandinavia as a part of Europe)
I constantly get shocked at the lengts Europeans sometimes go to make
something 'belong' to their country. Go to any movietheater in say, Germany
or Italy, or just turn on the telly there, and you see Sean Connery, Meg
Ryan,
Bruce Willis, et.al, speak in fluently German/Italian. Television series
like
the Simpsons seem to take place in a small German town.
What is this? To me it is horrible, to just mangle a set story to fit your
own
National Pride.
In Norway, everyone grew up knowing well that Donald was an American,
living in a typical American suburb. That didn't stop us from enjoying the
stories
or identifying with the characters/story. Also the same with comics like
Dilbert/Peanuts,
because the humor is universal, it doesn't m a t t e r if they live in the
states,
people are all the same anywhere.
And if European duckwriters feel the need to place Duckburg close to Paris,
Rome
or Fantasyland, they could just as well spit on the graves of Al Taliaferro
& Carl Barks.
They might not have invented all the characters, but they sure were the
first to define
and locate them.
Writing stories like that, with no disregard for the original artists, is
like writing
about Robin Hood living in the Wild West, or drawing Supermancomics where he
lives in Bavaria fights the Evil Gargamel on the side.
You just don't do that with any other comicartists or authors, why should
the
Ducks be an exception? Just because they've got Disney(tm) stamped all over
it,
instead of the people that should be credited doesn't justify this in any
way.
Of course, people can go around believing that Duckburg is in their native
country,
that Scrooge never ages, and that Cinderella lives nearby, but they just as
well
believe that Napoleon conquered Japan with his minisub, or that the Odyssey
was
about a band of escaped convicts trying to find their loot, but it doesn't
make it true.
I'm sorry about this rant, it might seem more harsh than I intended it to
be, but
it realy upsets me when people write about the ducks as if noone invented
them.
- Martin S. Thoresen.
From: "Tommi Perkola" <matope at uta.fi>
To: "Ari Seppi" <ariseppi at koti.soon.fi>
Cc: <dcml at stp.ling.uu.se>
Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2002 8:32 AM
Subject: Re: Where Scrooge lives
> Ari Seppi wrote:
> > To summarize my post: Rosa ducks in the US, others where ever.
>
> That was the point, about which I criticized Rosa about a year ago in
> sfnet.harrastus.kulttuuri.sarjakuvat. In European tradition Duckburg is
> located "somewhere near", or in its own universum.
>
> This is something a US citizen might not think about, but while you're
> reading daily comics like Peanuts or Dilbert, you don't specifically
> locate them anywhere. These comics are entertaining, because they
> resemble readers' daily life in humorous way, and adding too many strict
> indications of stories' milieu or geographical situation would spoil
> their universality.
>
> For someone who lives in the same country this isn't a problem, but in
> another country or continent it is. Now disney comics are all originally
> situated in USA, but majority of them both read and drawn abroad. It is
> said, that italian Duckburg is an amalgamation of an American big city
> and italian smalltown. For example Chierchini's Duckburg looks more like
> Paris than any American city.
>
> If you're grown reading italian disney, an American who both locates
> Duckburg in American west coast, sets their time to fifties and admits,
> he doesn't know anything about euroducs seems bit, eh, arrogant, like
> "To hell with thousands of pages euroducs produced in last 50 years!"
>
> --
What I think is arrogant is the attitude of European writers that they can
simply take and change completely the background and location of other
peoples characters. Just because they're allowed to, and that it appeals
to readers doesn't make it right.
As a Scandinavian, (I don't realy consider Scandinavia as a part of Europe)
I constantly get shocked at the lengts Europeans sometimes go to make
something 'belong' to their country. Go to any movietheater in say, Germany
or Italy, or just turn on the telly there, and you see Sean Connery, Meg
Ryan,
Bruce Willis, et.al, speak in fluently German/Italian. Television series
like
the Simpsons seem to take place in a small German town.
What is this? To me it is horrible, to just mangle a set story to fit your
own
National Pride.
In Norway, everyone grew up knowing well that Donald was an American,
living in a typical American suburb. That didn't stop us from enjoying the
stories
or identifying with the characters/story. Also the same with comics like
Dilbert/Peanuts,
because the humor is universal, it doesn't m a t t e r if they live in the
states,
people are all the same anywhere.
And if European duckwriters feel the need to place Duckburg close to Paris,
Rome
or Fantasyland, they could just as well spit on the graves of Al Taliaferro
& Carl Barks.
They might not have invented all the characters, but they sure were the
first to define
and locate them.
Writing stories like that, with no disregard for the original artists, is
like writing
about Robin Hood living in the Wild West, or drawing Supermancomics where he
lives in Bavaria fights the Evil Gargamel on the side.
You just don't do that with any other comicartists or authors, why should
the
Ducks be an exception? Just because they've got Disney(tm) stamped all over
it,
instead of the people that should be credited doesn't justify this in any
way.
Of course, people can go around believing that Duckburg is in their native
country,
that Scrooge never ages, and that Cinderella lives nearby, but they just as
well
believe that Napoleon conquered Japan with his minisub, or that the Odyssey
was
about a band of escaped convicts trying to find their loot, but it doesn't
make it true.
I'm sorry about this rant, it might seem more harsh than I intended it to
be, but
it realy upsets me when people write about the ducks as if noone invented
them.
- Martin S. Thoresen.
Ari Seppi
Where Scrooge lives
Message 104 -
2002-01-15 at 20:00:49
Dan:
>$crooge was created, not by countless Europeans or even an international
>committee, but by a single man who placed his newly thought up character
>squarely on the West coast of North America. He wrote plenty of stories
>that made it pretty clear where and when $crooge was meant to exist, and
>$crooge's travels reinforced that setting.
I basically agree with you. As I said before, a writer has the
ultimate say over his stories. In general, that is also the
case with the characters.
I do picture Scrooge living in the USA. Generally, when I
read a story I might even think "No! That is wrong! It can't
happen that way!" if there is something against the usual
Barksian facts (unless it is a Barks story where he is
contradicting his own facts).
Originally, my problem with the sentence "Scrooge lives
in the USA." was that Disney comics as a concept have
little rules. I considered the question generally: What do
people think when about this? Would the readers complain
if a story based on this fact was published? That might h
ave been a wrong point of view.
After reading this conversation and thinking the matter
over and over again I have to say that I simply don't know.
I don't know what is the right answer, I don't know what
is right point of view on the question.
I do know that this much pondering gives me a head ache.
--
Ari Seppi (mani at iki.fi)
http://www.iki.fi/mani/
Eritt?in fanaattinen Harry Potter -kirjojen ja Disney-sarjakuvien palvoja
>$crooge was created, not by countless Europeans or even an international
>committee, but by a single man who placed his newly thought up character
>squarely on the West coast of North America. He wrote plenty of stories
>that made it pretty clear where and when $crooge was meant to exist, and
>$crooge's travels reinforced that setting.
I basically agree with you. As I said before, a writer has the
ultimate say over his stories. In general, that is also the
case with the characters.
I do picture Scrooge living in the USA. Generally, when I
read a story I might even think "No! That is wrong! It can't
happen that way!" if there is something against the usual
Barksian facts (unless it is a Barks story where he is
contradicting his own facts).
Originally, my problem with the sentence "Scrooge lives
in the USA." was that Disney comics as a concept have
little rules. I considered the question generally: What do
people think when about this? Would the readers complain
if a story based on this fact was published? That might h
ave been a wrong point of view.
After reading this conversation and thinking the matter
over and over again I have to say that I simply don't know.
I don't know what is the right answer, I don't know what
is right point of view on the question.
I do know that this much pondering gives me a head ache.
--
Ari Seppi (mani at iki.fi)
http://www.iki.fi/mani/
Eritt?in fanaattinen Harry Potter -kirjojen ja Disney-sarjakuvien palvoja
Fluks, H.W.
Scrooge does not live in Scandinavia (Where Scrooge lives)
Message 105 -
2002-01-15 at 20:29:28
Martin S. Thoresen:
> What I think is arrogant is the attitude of European writers
> that they can
> simply take and change completely the background and location of other
> peoples characters. Just because they're allowed to, and that
> it appeals to readers doesn't make it right.
You could also call it revenge. Walt Disney and his people did it all the
time: take European tales or literary pieces, and change them to their
liking for a movie. Now the Europeans (and the Brazilians) take the Disney
characters and change them to their liking.
With Disney's approval, BTW. In the 1940s, no-one considered the writers and
artists of the stories a party in this.
In the Dutch case, the Dutch editors simply thought the children would
better accept the Disney stories if they were set in "an undefined nearby
place".
With one funny exception: when Scrooge was introduced, he was called
"Donald's rich uncle from America". I guess a person that rich in those
post-war days *had* to come from the USA... (But still, he went *living* in
that nearby Duckburg.)
> (I don't real[l]y consider Scandinavia as a part of Europe)
Should I take that serously? Do Scandinavians consider themselves
non-Europeans?
That might be the reason that Finland is the only Nordic country sensible
enough to use the euro.
> I constantly get shocked at the lengt[h]s Europeans sometimes go to
> make something 'belong' to their country.
> What is this? To me it is horrible, to just mangle a set
> story to fit your own National Pride.
What do the Americans do in stead? They re-create a foreign sit-com or
movie, with their own actors and their own settings.
Apparently, every country needs entertainment in their own language, and in
familiar settings.
Except maybe in the part of Scandinavia that isn't in Europe.
> it real[l]y upsets me when people write about the ducks as if
> no[]one invented them.
That's Disney's fault, and the fault of the creators who agreed to work for
Disney, or a Disney licensee. They agreed to be anonymous, and to lose all
rights over their creations.
This is how things usually worked in the past, also with Hanna/Barbera,
Lantz, etc.
The only *really* annoying thing is that Disney still wants to operate like
that today.
--Harry.
> What I think is arrogant is the attitude of European writers
> that they can
> simply take and change completely the background and location of other
> peoples characters. Just because they're allowed to, and that
> it appeals to readers doesn't make it right.
You could also call it revenge. Walt Disney and his people did it all the
time: take European tales or literary pieces, and change them to their
liking for a movie. Now the Europeans (and the Brazilians) take the Disney
characters and change them to their liking.
With Disney's approval, BTW. In the 1940s, no-one considered the writers and
artists of the stories a party in this.
In the Dutch case, the Dutch editors simply thought the children would
better accept the Disney stories if they were set in "an undefined nearby
place".
With one funny exception: when Scrooge was introduced, he was called
"Donald's rich uncle from America". I guess a person that rich in those
post-war days *had* to come from the USA... (But still, he went *living* in
that nearby Duckburg.)
> (I don't real[l]y consider Scandinavia as a part of Europe)
Should I take that serously? Do Scandinavians consider themselves
non-Europeans?
That might be the reason that Finland is the only Nordic country sensible
enough to use the euro.
> I constantly get shocked at the lengt[h]s Europeans sometimes go to
> make something 'belong' to their country.
> What is this? To me it is horrible, to just mangle a set
> story to fit your own National Pride.
What do the Americans do in stead? They re-create a foreign sit-com or
movie, with their own actors and their own settings.
Apparently, every country needs entertainment in their own language, and in
familiar settings.
Except maybe in the part of Scandinavia that isn't in Europe.
> it real[l]y upsets me when people write about the ducks as if
> no[]one invented them.
That's Disney's fault, and the fault of the creators who agreed to work for
Disney, or a Disney licensee. They agreed to be anonymous, and to lose all
rights over their creations.
This is how things usually worked in the past, also with Hanna/Barbera,
Lantz, etc.
The only *really* annoying thing is that Disney still wants to operate like
that today.
--Harry.