At 19:01 24.02.02 +0000, Rob Klein wrote:
>Isolated Country folk from remote areas in the North of Norway, speaking a
>simple, uneducated country language ((a simplified generalised speech that
>might be attributed to less educated country folk which could be
>understandable
>all over Norway) devoid (as much as possible) of regional differences.
One piece of friendly advice: Do never ever state the above when Norwegian
dialect fanatics are present! Whatever you do or say afterwards can never
save your skin.
Well, not being a Norwegian, you would be excused. But I, coming from the
Oslo region, would face dreadful consequences. :-)
Calling country dialects "simple, uneducated" in public is probably one of
the worst deeds you can do in Norway. One reason being that it's simply not
true. The dialects are just as rich, maybe even richer, than the official
written standard. The other reason being that quite a few people in Norway
are extremely touchy about this subject.
Also calling country folk less educated would probably stir some commotion.
There's a lot of hostility towards urbanization and centralization in
Norway, EU-hostility being one result.
And one important point regarding the dialects. They are strictly located
to geographical regions, and therefore there is no generalized country
speech. Some of the dialects are so archaic that they are really difficult
for other Norwegians to understand. As a result of Norway's topography some
dialects are so differentiated, that if spoken properly, a dialect expert
will be able to determine within a few kilometers where the person speaking
is coming from. Just by listening to the dialect.
To bring this on topic: The above is also probably one reason why the
editors in Norway have to be very careful with the language in the comics,
using only standard.
Well, actually nowadays this is not so important anymore. But when the
translator had the indians in Plain Awful talking a variant of a Norwegian
dialect back in the 60s, it stirred so much commotion that the story
(printed as a 5-parter) had to be stopped, and the dialog changed to
standard. In later reprints the dialect has been reintroduced without any
commotion.
But the tradition in Norwegian Disney comics is that that all dialog is
written in standard bokmaal. Therefore it will stay that way. The dialog is
still mostly well written, so that we do not loose to much.
Regards
Halsten
Author
Topic: 200202
(273 messages)
Halsten Aastebol
Comics language USA
Message 211 -
2002-02-25 at 11:20:50
Don Rosa
DCML digest #847
Message 212 -
2002-02-25 at 16:37:40
Wow! I found all the comments about dialects or accents or lazy tongues and
how they are dealt with (or NOT dealt with) in Norewgian and perhaps other
European languages very interesting, especially Rob Klein's lil' lecture.
But one thing I'm having trouble grasping: the way that Barks or I or many
others write our dialogue has nothing to do with regional dialects, it's
simply slurred with speed... the "lazy tongue" as is said... and in English
it's easy to speak this way, and easy to imitate the words/sounds with
written dialogue. So... why isn't that the same in Norwegian? Surely
Norwegians slur certain words when speaking fast, or when they are drunk or
sleepy of drugged and depicted that way in a film, eh? How could a drunken
Norwegian speak with perfect diction? And then why can't this slurred or
lazy speech be depicted in written dialogue?
But if such is never done in films or books or comics in Norway, I feel
sorry for my Norwegian friends -- they are missing out on a very important
additional element of storytelling. It's like saying that paintings in
Norwegian museums have a certain portion of the color spectrum removed, or
that an orchestra in a Norwegian concert cannot play certain ranges of
notes.
how they are dealt with (or NOT dealt with) in Norewgian and perhaps other
European languages very interesting, especially Rob Klein's lil' lecture.
But one thing I'm having trouble grasping: the way that Barks or I or many
others write our dialogue has nothing to do with regional dialects, it's
simply slurred with speed... the "lazy tongue" as is said... and in English
it's easy to speak this way, and easy to imitate the words/sounds with
written dialogue. So... why isn't that the same in Norwegian? Surely
Norwegians slur certain words when speaking fast, or when they are drunk or
sleepy of drugged and depicted that way in a film, eh? How could a drunken
Norwegian speak with perfect diction? And then why can't this slurred or
lazy speech be depicted in written dialogue?
But if such is never done in films or books or comics in Norway, I feel
sorry for my Norwegian friends -- they are missing out on a very important
additional element of storytelling. It's like saying that paintings in
Norwegian museums have a certain portion of the color spectrum removed, or
that an orchestra in a Norwegian concert cannot play certain ranges of
notes.
Rob Klein
Norwegian Language
Message 213 -
2002-02-25 at 17:12:36
I apologise to any Norwegians who were offended by my attempt to make an
analogy to the use of American simple speech and national slang. I did not
intend to imply that the regional dialects in Norway were "simple or uneducated
speech". I only implied that IF "worldly" and "educated" folk in Oslo WERE TO
be prejudiced in considering language spoken by isolated, rural folk in remote
areas "simple", that that would be analogous to the situation in USA before
1950 (or so). I knew that there are no uneducated folk to have simple speech
in the regional dialects; and I also knew that there is no national Norwegion
slang. That is also why I didn't mention Norway when I used the analogy of "a
lazy or more free Hochdeutsch. I was only trying to make the US situation
understandable. I guess I should have used Verwegistan (Farwaystan) for my
analogy.
I would NEVER say anything deliberately to hurt or put someone down.
Hej, hej, og hilsen,
Rob Klein
---------------------------------------------
This message was sent using Endymion MailMan.
http://www.endymion.com/products/mailman/
analogy to the use of American simple speech and national slang. I did not
intend to imply that the regional dialects in Norway were "simple or uneducated
speech". I only implied that IF "worldly" and "educated" folk in Oslo WERE TO
be prejudiced in considering language spoken by isolated, rural folk in remote
areas "simple", that that would be analogous to the situation in USA before
1950 (or so). I knew that there are no uneducated folk to have simple speech
in the regional dialects; and I also knew that there is no national Norwegion
slang. That is also why I didn't mention Norway when I used the analogy of "a
lazy or more free Hochdeutsch. I was only trying to make the US situation
understandable. I guess I should have used Verwegistan (Farwaystan) for my
analogy.
I would NEVER say anything deliberately to hurt or put someone down.
Hej, hej, og hilsen,
Rob Klein
---------------------------------------------
This message was sent using Endymion MailMan.
http://www.endymion.com/products/mailman/
François Willot
Level of language in Disney Comics
Message 214 -
2002-02-25 at 17:19:03
In some books published in France, like the Gottfredson hommage books "l'?ge
d'or" (the same series exists in Italy and probably other countries),
Mickey's slang language has been more or less restored but otherwise, in
most French Disney comics, language has always been a perfectly correct one.
That does not mean however that the language is spoken like if it would come
from "the mouth of a college professor in linguistics and grammar". It is
correct but it also is a very simple language, which is one of the hardest
thing for an author to do. The texts of Maupassant look all so simple, but
just *try* to write like him.
I think I would have a hard time if I were to translate Gottfredson's or
Barks' slang language in French. Words like "gonna" or expressions like "I
don't" aren't correct AFAIK, and I would not know how to reproduce it,
except for using familiar but still correct language. That's what the
translators of "l'?ge d'or" did. Or, for your information, the publisher
Zenda which tried to reprint the complete set of Carl Barks stories in
France.
Of course there is a spoken language, different from the writing one. But
that language is seldom used in print. Celine did it, but in a Disney comic,
that would just look very strange. I think I prefer it the way it is.
But - it seems to me that this American slang language we're talking about
was mostly used in the 30s Mickey strips or in 50s comic books, and much
less after and that the Americans are more politically correct than they
were.
Francois
d'or" (the same series exists in Italy and probably other countries),
Mickey's slang language has been more or less restored but otherwise, in
most French Disney comics, language has always been a perfectly correct one.
That does not mean however that the language is spoken like if it would come
from "the mouth of a college professor in linguistics and grammar". It is
correct but it also is a very simple language, which is one of the hardest
thing for an author to do. The texts of Maupassant look all so simple, but
just *try* to write like him.
I think I would have a hard time if I were to translate Gottfredson's or
Barks' slang language in French. Words like "gonna" or expressions like "I
don't" aren't correct AFAIK, and I would not know how to reproduce it,
except for using familiar but still correct language. That's what the
translators of "l'?ge d'or" did. Or, for your information, the publisher
Zenda which tried to reprint the complete set of Carl Barks stories in
France.
Of course there is a spoken language, different from the writing one. But
that language is seldom used in print. Celine did it, but in a Disney comic,
that would just look very strange. I think I prefer it the way it is.
But - it seems to me that this American slang language we're talking about
was mostly used in the 30s Mickey strips or in 50s comic books, and much
less after and that the Americans are more politically correct than they
were.
Francois
Jgarvin
Barks dialects
Message 215 -
2002-02-25 at 18:01:34
Rob Klein wrote:
"The use of "de" for "the", "dose" for "those", "dem"
for "them", etc. is used to portray uneducated, unsophisticated, simple
folk,
(as was the desired image of criminals in Disney stories. The use of
nonofficial language by the main characters was to bring everyday speech
into
the story to make it more realistic."
Actually, "dese" and "dose" and "dem" seems to be a parody of the heavy
Bronx "bad guy" accent which Hollywood used in most gangster films of
the period, as opposed to a country bumpkin accent, which you can find
in Lil Abner, for instance.
"The use of "de" for "the", "dose" for "those", "dem"
for "them", etc. is used to portray uneducated, unsophisticated, simple
folk,
(as was the desired image of criminals in Disney stories. The use of
nonofficial language by the main characters was to bring everyday speech
into
the story to make it more realistic."
Actually, "dese" and "dose" and "dem" seems to be a parody of the heavy
Bronx "bad guy" accent which Hollywood used in most gangster films of
the period, as opposed to a country bumpkin accent, which you can find
in Lil Abner, for instance.
Ari Seppi
Level of language in Disney Comics
Message 216 -
2002-02-25 at 18:46:06
Fran?ois:
>in most French Disney comics, language has always been a perfectly correct
>one.
>That does not mean however that the language is spoken like if it would come
>from "the mouth of a college professor in linguistics and grammar". It is
>correct but it also is a very simple language, which is one of the hardest
>thing for an author to do.
This is mostly the case in Finland too, most of the characters use
proper language. Even those, like Goofy, who use some words of
spoken Finnish use more correct language than is generally
spoken (correct and pure finite forms for example).
>Of course there is a spoken language, different from the writing one. But
>that language is seldom used in print.
And it is also like this in Finland.
>Celine did it, but in a Disney comic,
>that would just look very strange. I think I prefer it the way it is.
I, too, would find it strange if poor language was used in Finnish
Disney comics.
Don:
>I'd hate to know what
>such an editor, just as regards my stories much less the thousands of
>others, did with the dialogue for Arpin Lusene in "The Black Knight" or all
>of the backwoods aliens in my "Attack of the Hideous Space Varmints". The
>broken grammar of the characters in the latter was about 50% of the humor
>and character of the story!
I'm not sure and can't check, but I think Arpin Lusene's dialogue
had those errors in Finnish translation too. And at least Space
Varmints used spoken language, and broken grammar in Finnish.
In that story it suited well as a special effect trick, but generally
speaking there are some problems in using broken grammar
more frequently.
Jennifer:
>Here's a Disney Comic Quiz! Everybody in it is in the Donald or Uncle
>Scrooge comics!
The first question is interesting:
Question: "Are you a guy?"
Answer options: "I agree", "I disagree", "Not Sure".
:-)
--
Ari Seppi (mani at iki.fi)
http://www.iki.fi/mani/
Winnie the Pooh is my great guru.
>in most French Disney comics, language has always been a perfectly correct
>one.
>That does not mean however that the language is spoken like if it would come
>from "the mouth of a college professor in linguistics and grammar". It is
>correct but it also is a very simple language, which is one of the hardest
>thing for an author to do.
This is mostly the case in Finland too, most of the characters use
proper language. Even those, like Goofy, who use some words of
spoken Finnish use more correct language than is generally
spoken (correct and pure finite forms for example).
>Of course there is a spoken language, different from the writing one. But
>that language is seldom used in print.
And it is also like this in Finland.
>Celine did it, but in a Disney comic,
>that would just look very strange. I think I prefer it the way it is.
I, too, would find it strange if poor language was used in Finnish
Disney comics.
Don:
>I'd hate to know what
>such an editor, just as regards my stories much less the thousands of
>others, did with the dialogue for Arpin Lusene in "The Black Knight" or all
>of the backwoods aliens in my "Attack of the Hideous Space Varmints". The
>broken grammar of the characters in the latter was about 50% of the humor
>and character of the story!
I'm not sure and can't check, but I think Arpin Lusene's dialogue
had those errors in Finnish translation too. And at least Space
Varmints used spoken language, and broken grammar in Finnish.
In that story it suited well as a special effect trick, but generally
speaking there are some problems in using broken grammar
more frequently.
Jennifer:
>Here's a Disney Comic Quiz! Everybody in it is in the Donald or Uncle
>Scrooge comics!
The first question is interesting:
Question: "Are you a guy?"
Answer options: "I agree", "I disagree", "Not Sure".
:-)
--
Ari Seppi (mani at iki.fi)
http://www.iki.fi/mani/
Winnie the Pooh is my great guru.
Mattias Hallin
Level of language in Disney Comics
Message 217 -
2002-02-25 at 19:39:08
At 16.19 2002-02-25, Fran?ois Willot wrote:
>I think I would have a hard time if I were to translate Gottfredson's or
>Barks' slang language in French. Words like "gonna" or expressions like "I
>don't" aren't correct AFAIK, and I would not know how to reproduce it,
>except for using familiar but still correct language.
I'm sure you're right, when you say that it would be difficult to find an
exact equivalen to the specific word "gonna", or most of the other
colloquial English words of a simliar nature which have been mentioned in
this thread.
On the other hand (and please correct me if I'm wrong), it seems to me that
pretty much the same way to indicate spoken language exists in written
French... for example by writing "j'suis" instead of "je suis", "y a pas"
instead "il n'y a pas", "j'sais pas" instead of "je ne sais pas" and so on
and so forth... It appears to me (from reading other comics in French than
just Donald Duck) that these kinds of written conventions of all sorts are
as frequent in French language comics as in comics of any other language...
conventions to indicate that the person speaking is a child, or drunk, or
just talks like the average guy in the street. And (unless my considerably
less then perfect understanding of French is playing tricks on me) that's
pretty much the same thing as the language used by Barks and others --
"gonna" etc. -- a way to reproduce in writing the way average people
actually talk. Or? Am I wrong?
>Of course there is a spoken language, different from the writing one. But
>that language is seldom used in print. Celine did it, but in a Disney comic,
>that would just look very strange. I think I prefer it the way it is.
That is, of course, a perfectly valid opinion; if one wanted to argue with
it (which I really don't), one might say that this is more a question of
what you're used to than of what's possible... Or?
All the best,
/Mattias
*** Mattias Hallin ** Brussels ** Belgium ** <cmhallin at algonet.se> ***
* *
* "Oh bury me thar! With my battered git-tar! *
************* A-screamin' my heart out fer yew!" *************
>I think I would have a hard time if I were to translate Gottfredson's or
>Barks' slang language in French. Words like "gonna" or expressions like "I
>don't" aren't correct AFAIK, and I would not know how to reproduce it,
>except for using familiar but still correct language.
I'm sure you're right, when you say that it would be difficult to find an
exact equivalen to the specific word "gonna", or most of the other
colloquial English words of a simliar nature which have been mentioned in
this thread.
On the other hand (and please correct me if I'm wrong), it seems to me that
pretty much the same way to indicate spoken language exists in written
French... for example by writing "j'suis" instead of "je suis", "y a pas"
instead "il n'y a pas", "j'sais pas" instead of "je ne sais pas" and so on
and so forth... It appears to me (from reading other comics in French than
just Donald Duck) that these kinds of written conventions of all sorts are
as frequent in French language comics as in comics of any other language...
conventions to indicate that the person speaking is a child, or drunk, or
just talks like the average guy in the street. And (unless my considerably
less then perfect understanding of French is playing tricks on me) that's
pretty much the same thing as the language used by Barks and others --
"gonna" etc. -- a way to reproduce in writing the way average people
actually talk. Or? Am I wrong?
>Of course there is a spoken language, different from the writing one. But
>that language is seldom used in print. Celine did it, but in a Disney comic,
>that would just look very strange. I think I prefer it the way it is.
That is, of course, a perfectly valid opinion; if one wanted to argue with
it (which I really don't), one might say that this is more a question of
what you're used to than of what's possible... Or?
All the best,
/Mattias
*** Mattias Hallin ** Brussels ** Belgium ** <cmhallin at algonet.se> ***
* *
* "Oh bury me thar! With my battered git-tar! *
************* A-screamin' my heart out fer yew!" *************
Sue And Gary Leach
DCML digest, Vol 1 #847 - 10 msgs
Message 218 -
2002-02-25 at 19:40:01
Olaf:
After growing up with perfect grammar comics, the intention of the question
was why there is improper grammar in the originals, which seemed very odd to
_me_ (even though it makes perfect sense in your answer). I feel that I got
a very good answer to that from you (Don Rosa) and Rob Klein now, so
thanks!
And just to add something else: English is not a "native" language in the
USA. That honor belongs to the various indigenous tongues encountered by the
European immigrants who brought English over (along with French, Spanish,
German, Norwegian, Italian, etc., and their various dialects, brogues, and
whatnot) not all that long ago. By the various machinations of history
English came to predominate in North America, though French maintains some
solid footholds and Spanish has always had an enormous presence and
influence
throughout the Americas.
Sadly, the truly native tongues were marginalized by history, and only time
will tell how many of them will manage to be preserved, let alone invited to
the linguistic free-for-all that still characterizes speech and writing here
in the USA.
Gary
After growing up with perfect grammar comics, the intention of the question
was why there is improper grammar in the originals, which seemed very odd to
_me_ (even though it makes perfect sense in your answer). I feel that I got
a very good answer to that from you (Don Rosa) and Rob Klein now, so
thanks!
And just to add something else: English is not a "native" language in the
USA. That honor belongs to the various indigenous tongues encountered by the
European immigrants who brought English over (along with French, Spanish,
German, Norwegian, Italian, etc., and their various dialects, brogues, and
whatnot) not all that long ago. By the various machinations of history
English came to predominate in North America, though French maintains some
solid footholds and Spanish has always had an enormous presence and
influence
throughout the Americas.
Sadly, the truly native tongues were marginalized by history, and only time
will tell how many of them will manage to be preserved, let alone invited to
the linguistic free-for-all that still characterizes speech and writing here
in the USA.
Gary
Don Markstein
Disney Duck Quiz
Message 219 -
2002-02-25 at 20:25:45
>Here's a Disney Comic Quiz! Everybody in it is in the Donald or
Uncle Scrooge comics!
Holy cow! It says I'm Blackheart Beagle!
>As a result of Norway's topography some
>dialects are so differentiated, that if spoken properly, a dialect
expert
>will be able to determine within a few kilometers where the person
speaking
>is coming from. Just by listening to the dialect.
That's not unique to Norwegian. I grew up in the American South,
and someone once spotted what high school I attended, just by listening
to my way of speaking.
I'm trying to imagine a situation in which I couldn't use speech
patterns to differentiate character types, and am coming up blank.
Quack, Don
http://www.toonopedia.com/today.htm
Today in Toons: Every day's an anniversary
Uncle Scrooge comics!
Holy cow! It says I'm Blackheart Beagle!
>As a result of Norway's topography some
>dialects are so differentiated, that if spoken properly, a dialect
expert
>will be able to determine within a few kilometers where the person
speaking
>is coming from. Just by listening to the dialect.
That's not unique to Norwegian. I grew up in the American South,
and someone once spotted what high school I attended, just by listening
to my way of speaking.
I'm trying to imagine a situation in which I couldn't use speech
patterns to differentiate character types, and am coming up blank.
Quack, Don
http://www.toonopedia.com/today.htm
Today in Toons: Every day's an anniversary
Mattias Hallin
Level of language in Disney Comics
Message 220 -
2002-02-25 at 20:27:55
[If this message appears twice on the list, please excuse me; I'm not sure,
but I fear that I used an old address the first time round; if not... well,
'tis sorry I am for repeating myself! /MH]
At 16.19 2002-02-25, Fran?ois Willot wrote:
>I think I would have a hard time if I were to translate Gottfredson's or
>Barks' slang language in French. Words like "gonna" or expressions like "I
>don't" aren't correct AFAIK, and I would not know how to reproduce it,
>except for using familiar but still correct language.
I'm sure you're right, when you say that it would be difficult to find an
exact equivalen to the specific word "gonna", or most of the other
colloquial English words of a simliar nature which have been mentioned in
this thread.
On the other hand (and please correct me if I'm wrong), it seems to me that
pretty much the same way to indicate spoken language exists in written
French... for example by writing "j'suis" instead of "je suis", "y a pas"
instead "il n'y a pas", "j'sais pas" instead of "je ne sais pas" and so on
and so forth... It appears to me (from reading other comics in French than
just Donald Duck) that these kinds of written conventions of all sorts are
as frequent in French language comics as in comics of any other language...
conventions to indicate that the person speaking is a child, or drunk, or
just talks like the average guy in the street. And (unless my considerably
less then perfect understanding of French is playing tricks on me) that's
pretty much the same thing as the language used by Barks and others --
"gonna" etc. -- a way to reproduce in writing the way average people
actually talk. Or? Am I wrong?
>Of course there is a spoken language, different from the writing one. But
>that language is seldom used in print. Celine did it, but in a Disney comic,
>that would just look very strange. I think I prefer it the way it is.
That is, of course, a perfectly valid opinion; if one wanted to argue with
it (which I really don't), one might say that this is more a question of
what you're used to than of what's possible... Or?
All the best,
/Mattias
*** Mattias Hallin ** Brussels ** Belgium ** <cmhallin at algonet.se> ***
* *
* "Oh bury me thar! With my battered git-tar! *
************* A-screamin' my heart out fer yew!" *************
but I fear that I used an old address the first time round; if not... well,
'tis sorry I am for repeating myself! /MH]
At 16.19 2002-02-25, Fran?ois Willot wrote:
>I think I would have a hard time if I were to translate Gottfredson's or
>Barks' slang language in French. Words like "gonna" or expressions like "I
>don't" aren't correct AFAIK, and I would not know how to reproduce it,
>except for using familiar but still correct language.
I'm sure you're right, when you say that it would be difficult to find an
exact equivalen to the specific word "gonna", or most of the other
colloquial English words of a simliar nature which have been mentioned in
this thread.
On the other hand (and please correct me if I'm wrong), it seems to me that
pretty much the same way to indicate spoken language exists in written
French... for example by writing "j'suis" instead of "je suis", "y a pas"
instead "il n'y a pas", "j'sais pas" instead of "je ne sais pas" and so on
and so forth... It appears to me (from reading other comics in French than
just Donald Duck) that these kinds of written conventions of all sorts are
as frequent in French language comics as in comics of any other language...
conventions to indicate that the person speaking is a child, or drunk, or
just talks like the average guy in the street. And (unless my considerably
less then perfect understanding of French is playing tricks on me) that's
pretty much the same thing as the language used by Barks and others --
"gonna" etc. -- a way to reproduce in writing the way average people
actually talk. Or? Am I wrong?
>Of course there is a spoken language, different from the writing one. But
>that language is seldom used in print. Celine did it, but in a Disney comic,
>that would just look very strange. I think I prefer it the way it is.
That is, of course, a perfectly valid opinion; if one wanted to argue with
it (which I really don't), one might say that this is more a question of
what you're used to than of what's possible... Or?
All the best,
/Mattias
*** Mattias Hallin ** Brussels ** Belgium ** <cmhallin at algonet.se> ***
* *
* "Oh bury me thar! With my battered git-tar! *
************* A-screamin' my heart out fer yew!" *************
François Willot
Level of language in Disney Comics (starting to be a bit off-topic)
Message 221 -
2002-02-26 at 01:50:12
>From: Mattias Hallin <cmhallin at algonet.se>
>I'm sure you're right, when you say that it would be difficult to find an
>exact equivalen to the specific word "gonna", or most of the other
>colloquial English words of a simliar nature which have been mentioned in
>this thread.
>On the other hand (and please correct me if I'm wrong), it seems to me that
>pretty much the same way to indicate spoken language exists in written
>French... for example by writing "j'suis" instead of "je suis", "y a pas"
>instead "il n'y a pas", "j'sais pas" instead of "je ne sais pas" and so on
>and so forth...
Yes, you're right that there is an equivalent to spoken American language
like in Gottfredson's, which is of course spoken French language. But what
I'm trying to express is that it would not mean the same in print for a
French and for an American, because spoken language is rarely seen in print.
I have never read something like "ch'ais pas" for "je ne sais pas" which is
the way we actually pronounce it (I'm not even sure how to write "ch'ai
pas"!). And I think "j'sais pas", which is hard to pronounce, is almost as
rare.
There are not simply 2 languages, "low" and "high" like in America (if I
understand well) but I would say there are three, "spoken", "normal written"
and "high". And of course, just because the spoken language is not the one
we see in print, doesn't mean that we're only using complex phrases and high
level words in publications. So I see no equivalent to "I'm gonna" in French
writing. I believe that "normal written" French is the fairest possible
translation. In this respect, with English-American having 2 languages and
French 3, I think French is richer.
And "spoken" language, of course won't be lost. We are even able to
reconstruct the spoken language of a particular region of France in the
VIIIth century, so we'll probably be able to do it for the XXth and XXIth.
>I'm sure you're right, when you say that it would be difficult to find an
>exact equivalen to the specific word "gonna", or most of the other
>colloquial English words of a simliar nature which have been mentioned in
>this thread.
>On the other hand (and please correct me if I'm wrong), it seems to me that
>pretty much the same way to indicate spoken language exists in written
>French... for example by writing "j'suis" instead of "je suis", "y a pas"
>instead "il n'y a pas", "j'sais pas" instead of "je ne sais pas" and so on
>and so forth...
Yes, you're right that there is an equivalent to spoken American language
like in Gottfredson's, which is of course spoken French language. But what
I'm trying to express is that it would not mean the same in print for a
French and for an American, because spoken language is rarely seen in print.
I have never read something like "ch'ais pas" for "je ne sais pas" which is
the way we actually pronounce it (I'm not even sure how to write "ch'ai
pas"!). And I think "j'sais pas", which is hard to pronounce, is almost as
rare.
There are not simply 2 languages, "low" and "high" like in America (if I
understand well) but I would say there are three, "spoken", "normal written"
and "high". And of course, just because the spoken language is not the one
we see in print, doesn't mean that we're only using complex phrases and high
level words in publications. So I see no equivalent to "I'm gonna" in French
writing. I believe that "normal written" French is the fairest possible
translation. In this respect, with English-American having 2 languages and
French 3, I think French is richer.
And "spoken" language, of course won't be lost. We are even able to
reconstruct the spoken language of a particular region of France in the
VIIIth century, so we'll probably be able to do it for the XXth and XXIth.
François Willot
Disney Duck Quiz
Message 222 -
2002-02-26 at 02:46:03
>From: Don Markstein <lists at toonopedia.com>
> >Here's a Disney Comic Quiz! Everybody in it is in the Donald or
> Uncle Scrooge comics!
>
> Holy cow! It says I'm Blackheart Beagle!
The thing must be broken! I am also Blackheart Beagle!
> >Here's a Disney Comic Quiz! Everybody in it is in the Donald or
> Uncle Scrooge comics!
>
> Holy cow! It says I'm Blackheart Beagle!
The thing must be broken! I am also Blackheart Beagle!
Claus Ola Margon Håvik
The Ducks speaking the Queens english?
Message 223 -
2002-02-26 at 05:01:22
If most Europeans are used to reading Donald speaking proper language,
do any of the Europeans that write for Egmont use only grammatically
correct English dialog in their scripts?
What did you do in your script, Olaf?
do any of the Europeans that write for Egmont use only grammatically
correct English dialog in their scripts?
What did you do in your script, Olaf?
Fabio Blanco
Norwegian Language
Message 224 -
2002-02-26 at 06:36:04
But italian accent for romans is nonsense! Well, I think. Are a long
distance from latin to first romance languages, to modern italian...
Is some italian in the room?
FABIO
> Your idea has been used in "Asterix goes to America", where the Romans
> talk norwegian with an italian accent, the Gauls talk "?stfolding"
> (Fredrikstad / Sarpsborg) and other dialects are used for other groups
> in the movie. And IMHO this works out absolutely beautifully... :)
distance from latin to first romance languages, to modern italian...
Is some italian in the room?
FABIO
> Your idea has been used in "Asterix goes to America", where the Romans
> talk norwegian with an italian accent, the Gauls talk "?stfolding"
> (Fredrikstad / Sarpsborg) and other dialects are used for other groups
> in the movie. And IMHO this works out absolutely beautifully... :)
Fabio Blanco
Translators vs. editors
Message 225 -
2002-02-26 at 06:52:26
> For example, my hillbilly aliens in "Attack of the Hideous Space
> Varmints"... *obviously* the translations will not have them speaking Jed
> Clampett English, and I cannot begin to imagine how a diligent translator
> will manage to handle the translation of such a mess as I've made for
him --
In the mexican dubbing that the tv series seen in all "latinoamerica" (I
hate that word), the hillbilly accent is replaced by some rural mexican
accent, that I think is similar...
I wonder how sounds your hillbilly aliens on the Picsou, where I read your
comics. Is natural, I live in Argentina...
>This would make me start to
> imagine a newspaper editor who disliked the grammar in Walt Kelly's POGO
> strips and before he'd allow them to be published in his paper, he'd have
> someone rewrite all of the Swamp critters' dialogue into perfect English.
The horror! The horror! what born natural editor coul' make that??
> the dialogue aloud to myself. Of the art, the plot, the gags, and the
> dialogue, it was the *dialogue* that was the best part of the strip!
Well that Beuregard dog, he is cute!!!
FABIO
************
bonvolu postu al longtom at oeste.com.ar
> Varmints"... *obviously* the translations will not have them speaking Jed
> Clampett English, and I cannot begin to imagine how a diligent translator
> will manage to handle the translation of such a mess as I've made for
him --
In the mexican dubbing that the tv series seen in all "latinoamerica" (I
hate that word), the hillbilly accent is replaced by some rural mexican
accent, that I think is similar...
I wonder how sounds your hillbilly aliens on the Picsou, where I read your
comics. Is natural, I live in Argentina...
>This would make me start to
> imagine a newspaper editor who disliked the grammar in Walt Kelly's POGO
> strips and before he'd allow them to be published in his paper, he'd have
> someone rewrite all of the Swamp critters' dialogue into perfect English.
The horror! The horror! what born natural editor coul' make that??
> the dialogue aloud to myself. Of the art, the plot, the gags, and the
> dialogue, it was the *dialogue* that was the best part of the strip!
Well that Beuregard dog, he is cute!!!
FABIO
************
bonvolu postu al longtom at oeste.com.ar