STEFAN
>I'm adamant about this. Scrooge speaking
>English all of a sudden, in a Swedish comic, just
>because I can't translate
>a gag with little or no bearing on the story? Even
>in this case, it would
>look perfectly absurd to me. I would never even
>consider that.
I hope you don't feel like we're twisting your arm, here... ;-)
It's just for the sake of discussion.
Still, I don't see why you're so horrified by the sole thought
of having a duck speak a few words in English... six, in this
case, three of which numbers...
Let's make another example:
In a '66 Barks one pager (US 61), the whole gag relies on a
sign hanging from the wall that says "Top Wages".
At the end of the page, a young duck-employee is contemplating
with disbelief the "wage" he just received, a "top" (spinning-top).
Now, what would you do, here ? Being the gag un-translatable, the only
alternative to a footnote would be not publishing the story at all...
The Italians went for the footnote, in this case.
I think it was the sensible thing to do, and I can't help wondering
why they're not doing so with Don Rosa stories.
>I'm amazed by the high level of education among the Finnish and Italian
>people.
<snip>
>And if I were to
>go out in Malmo, asking people on the bus or in the
>grocery store if they
>know how Mark Twain got his name, I'd expect to be
>met by a blank stare, at best.
Well, I must admit I wouldn't do any better at any grocers, either.
It is a sad fact that less and less people read books, nowadays, and
Mark Twain is probably, for most, just a boring memory from school,
at best...
But the point is still the same: if you did use those six English
words, it would have done no harm to people that don't know, and
don't care about Mark Twain, it would have pleased people that do
know and care and, perhaps, stimulated a new interest in people
that didn't, until then.
Not to mention that "bit more" of intellectual enjoyment those
literary references add to Don's stories, although I agree with
you that those gags are not, mostly, instrumental to the plot.
>Why, if somebody doesn't stop me anytime soon, I'll go on
>to suggest that those who *would* understand the original gag
>are much better off reading the original American comics
>instead of a crappy translation; and probably already are doing
>so... but that might be going a bit too far.
And why ? In fact, this is the *best* possible choice, and sometimes
the *only* choice. I've never studied English at school, and the
reason that really "pushed" me to get past the simpler "international"
English I learned travelling, was the desire to read books that
weren't translated in Italian. I started reading them with a =
dictionary
handy, and slowly learned how to enjoy the style, etc. AND learned a
language, in the meantime.
Hard as this may sound to your ears, there's no translation that
*could* be as good as the original, I'm afraid.
What I do with Don's stories, most of the time, is reading them
in Italian first, then, a few months later, when they become finally
available, in English, usually with twice the fun...
But a lot of people still *need* translations, and it would be nice
if they could fully enjoy Don's wit, too.
>should I use "dollar" as the given currency instead of "kronor",
>which is otherwise legal tender all over the Swedish Disney comics
>world?
<snip>
>In Sweden, it's not all that clear that Duckburg must be in America.
<snip>
>Now, I realize that readers in countries like Italy, where nobody
>tries to pretend that the Ducks live anywhere else than real-life
>America, can't easily relate to these problems.
Well, you see, in stories from the late '40s - early '50s, they
*did* have the characters living in Italy, actually, and Scrooge's
bin bore the "Lira" sign on its front.
I remember a translation of Barks "Terror of the River", where the =
ducks
descended the river Ticino, passing through a few Lombardy towns...
But then, Italian authors became more "philological" themselves =
(should
I remind of Romano Scarpa once more ? ;-), and everything was =
"brought
back" in America.
As far as I can remember, this caused no cultural shock whatsoever...
>And many other people will surely agree and find it sacrilegious to
>Don Rosa not to follow his every word religiously.
Oh, no. We wouldn't want to start all that again, I hope... ;-)
I'd better find some other author to discuss WRT translations,
I guess... how about Scarpa ? ;-)
HARRY
[to MARCO on MOE]
>Marco:
>>The first appearance of Hard Haid Moe is reportedly
>>on a Studio Disney Story
>>by Kinney and Hubbard which appeared on "Topolino"
>>#462.
>
>Of course you're referring to the first *Italian*
>appearance.
Well, that was an *absolute* (whatever it means) reference, made
by Alberto Becattini as well, as the very first MOE's story *ever*.
[to STEFAN on footnotes]
>To me that would be like an explaining
>footnote in the subtitles of a foreign movie.
But... but... subtitles ARE footnotes...
>I often like to see what a translator did with
>a story (you can call that one of my hobbies).
An hobby we share, seems like :-)
>One example I remember from a Barks story:
>The "thinking boxes" story (WDC 141). <snip>
In the original, the lines went:
Rabbit : "Mister, can you spare a dime for a bunch of carrots ?"
Donald : OH, SHUT UP !
I do have 3 Italian translation of this story and, although
nearly literal, they all differ in something to each other...
Which brings up another interesting matter, re-translations.
In the recent run of Barks reprints on "Zio Paperone", the Italian
publisher felt the need of "modernizing" the language used by the
characters, with very poor results, IMHO.
Are reprints re-translated in Holland in a more "modern" style ?
(How about Sweden, STEFAN ?)
>When I first saw an Italian comic, I was amazed that they used
>the $-sign on Scrooge's bin. And the characters even
>GRUNT and SNORT in (American) English!
We got a knack with onomatopoeia, you know... ;-)
But in the "Mountain Magic" story recently discussed MOE even
goes "AWRIGHT", in the Italian version, I mean.
>translating comics sure sounds like a fine job!
Er... are we perhaps making blind applications without even
realizing it ? ;-)
RICH, DAVID, MARCO, HARRY and anybody interested in
silly old FETHRY DUCK
I have been researching my own database for Al Hubbard
stories with Fethry and found a lot of 'em.
Here's a list of what I got from 1964-65, and my attempts to
associate story codes from the List's DB.
I'd be glad if somebody could help with the missing data.
Paperino e il fanatico igienista 12pp [FE's first]
DD, FE, LVD, Tabby TL 453 2/8/64
A New Way of Life (?) S 64008
Paperino e la tessitura della felicit=E0 11pp
DD, FE, various animals TL 459 13/9/64
Fethry makes a Coat for Donald (?) S 64024
Paperino e il mago dei maghi 9pp
DD ,FE ,Tabby TL 460 20/9/64
FE as Magician makes Tabby disappear, then himself
Paperino e la scuola del progresso 7pp
DD, FE, Tabby TL 461 2709/64
Fethry=B9s Liberal School (?) S 64051
Paperino e i tempi di programmazione 8pp
DD, FE, Tabby TL 463 11/10/64
Fast householding (?) S 64038
Paperino e la selvaggia traversata 9pp
DD, FE TL 466 1/11/64
FE with a pioneer coach
Paperino e il felino tutto sprint 7pp
DD, FE, Tabby TL 471 6/12/64
FE is convinced that Tabby is a rare cat, meets a tiger and
captures the cat bandit
Paperino, Paperoga e la Pop-Art 11pp
DD, FE, Tabby TL 471 6/12/64
Pop goes the Art (?) S 64066
Paperino e Malachia gatto da riporto 6pp
DD, FE, Tabby TL 473 20/12/64
FE goes duck hunting with Tabby (David talked about this one on #37)
Paperoga affarista indaffarato 8pp
DD, FE, Tabby, Hustler Duck TL 473 20/12/64
DD & FE buy rabbits from Hustler
Paperino e la colpa della fretta 10pp
DD, FE, DA (1 panel) AT 98 1/2/65
FE hurries DD's shopping
Paperino e la lunga notte insonne 8pp
DD, HDL, Tabby, Scrooge, GD (1 panel) AT 98 1/2/65
Early to bed! (This is an example of Tabby playing a prominent
role *without* Fethry and *with* both Scrooge and the nephews)
Malachia e l'idrofobia 7pp
DD, FE, Tabby TL 489 11/4/65
FE as a cat expert. Tabby's his victim
Paperoga conquistador oceanico 7pp
DD, FE, Tabby, a parrot TL 497 6/6/65
FE as yachtman "discovers" a whale
Paperoga chef rumoroso 7pp
DD, FE TL 504 25/7/65
FE as chef
Paperoga e il cruccio del singhiozzo 8pp
DD, FE, MOE, Joe TL 505 1/8/65
Mountain Magic X 4109 (S 64109 ?)
Paperoga incubo di Paperino 8pp
DD, FE, Tabby, an unnamed duck-girl, her she-cat TL 505 1/8/65
FE has a wedding agency, DD and Tabby are the victims
Paperoga e le cascate del Niagra 9pp
DD, FE, an owl-ranger TL 506 8/8/65
FE at the Niagra Falls with the customary barrel
Paperoga rude pioniere 7pp
DD, FE, Tabby, a bear TL 507 15/8/65
Camping in the wilderness
Paperoga Oscar della sbadataggine 7pp
DD, FE, Tabby TL 508 22/8/65
FE as cab driver (Tabby needs the vet)
Paperino allo sbaraglio 12pp
DD, FE TL 508 22/8/65
FE patented sleuth chases a giant mechanical moth
Paperoga e la schiuma negli occhi 9pp
DD, FE, DA TL 516 17/10/65
Daisy's garden party (?) S 64136
The number of pages indicated is actually extrapolated from the 2 X 3
Italian layout into the 2 X 4 "original" (supposed) form for ease of
reference.
On "Mountain Magic", I believe both versions we have (TL and Gulf)
are "remounted" from the 2 X 4 layout, which would explain the cuts
in the version Rich showed us.
But the final panel puzzles me... If we "remount" the Italian version
we end up with the official 8 pages count, but there's no room left =
for
the richer in details, and bigger Gulf version... was that purposedly
redrawn for the Gulf edition ?
Cheers
Eta Beta
email to : (Email removed)
------------------------------------------
"Do you suffer from long-term memory loss ?"
"I don't remember..."
(Chumbawamba '97)
------------------------------------------
Author
Topic: 199802
(347 messages)
Etabeta
(No subject)
Message 31 -
1998-02-03 at 11:59:39
Kriton Kyrimis
Disney comics Digest V98 #41
Message 32 -
1998-02-03 at 12:41:53
CAREY M. FURLONG:
> That's a rather blanket assumption on your part. How do you justify
> making such a statement, especially in light of the fact that the Bible
> does not say that the Sun orbits the Earth? It doesn't even suggest
> it. The simple truth of the matter is that the people you refer to
> are obviously ignorant, but they are not, necessarily fundamentalist,
> Bible reading Christians.
> Where in the world did you get the idea that such a thing was "probably
> so"?
[Before this gets out of hand, let me begin by reiterating my position
that science and the bible are in surprising agreement.]
"Probably so" means "could be", not "is", so feel free to refute me.
When, however, I read about this statistic, I couldn't help associating it
with the fact that there are many Americans who take the bible literally,
(e.g., "evolutionism" vs. "creationism"). After all, I find it hard to
believe that so many people in the US believe the sun revolves around
the Earth solely because they have not been taught otherwise at school.
As for where in the bible it says so, as Dan Shane pointed out, it's the
reference ``about God "making the sun stand still" so Joshua would have
extra daylight for his battle with the Canaanites''. (I *have* heard
this being used as an argument that the sun revolves around the Earth!)
As to this reference seemingly contradicting science, I am more inclined
to take it as an indication that the battle took place near the summer
solstice (which, I believe means something like "the sun stands still")
rather than a lesson in astronomy.
HARRY FLUKS:
> BTW, the Dutch changed that song to "O Denneboom" in
> their translation (1986), while the rest of the story was translated
> literally. ("O Denneboom" is something like "Jingle Bells".)
If that's the same song as the German "O Tannenbaum", then I believe
the English equivalent is "Oh, Christmas Tree".
KLAUS HARMS:
> Seems to me rather due to the fact that those prefixes do not descend
> from Greek (Ancient Greek, that is),
Being familiar with Greek isn't much help in this issue.
On the large part of the scale we have:
Kilo - Greek for 1000
Mega - Greek for "Big"
Giga - Greek for "Giant"
Tera - Greek for "Monster"
On the other end we have:
mili - Latin for 1000
micro - Greek for "small"
nano - Greek for "dwarf"
pico - (Latin for "small"?)
Thus, apart from Kilo and mili, all the other words mean either "big" or
"small", which isn't much help in sorting out which is which. As for hexa-
and peta- do they mean anything in Norwegian as well? In Greek they mean
"six" and "fly" (imperative), respectively, which doesn't make any sense!
--
Kriton (e-mail: (Email removed))
(WWW: http://dias.cti.gr/~kyrimis
-----
"You should sell an instruction & maintenance manual with these!"
"If I did, what would happen to Man's search for knowledge?"
-----
> That's a rather blanket assumption on your part. How do you justify
> making such a statement, especially in light of the fact that the Bible
> does not say that the Sun orbits the Earth? It doesn't even suggest
> it. The simple truth of the matter is that the people you refer to
> are obviously ignorant, but they are not, necessarily fundamentalist,
> Bible reading Christians.
> Where in the world did you get the idea that such a thing was "probably
> so"?
[Before this gets out of hand, let me begin by reiterating my position
that science and the bible are in surprising agreement.]
"Probably so" means "could be", not "is", so feel free to refute me.
When, however, I read about this statistic, I couldn't help associating it
with the fact that there are many Americans who take the bible literally,
(e.g., "evolutionism" vs. "creationism"). After all, I find it hard to
believe that so many people in the US believe the sun revolves around
the Earth solely because they have not been taught otherwise at school.
As for where in the bible it says so, as Dan Shane pointed out, it's the
reference ``about God "making the sun stand still" so Joshua would have
extra daylight for his battle with the Canaanites''. (I *have* heard
this being used as an argument that the sun revolves around the Earth!)
As to this reference seemingly contradicting science, I am more inclined
to take it as an indication that the battle took place near the summer
solstice (which, I believe means something like "the sun stands still")
rather than a lesson in astronomy.
HARRY FLUKS:
> BTW, the Dutch changed that song to "O Denneboom" in
> their translation (1986), while the rest of the story was translated
> literally. ("O Denneboom" is something like "Jingle Bells".)
If that's the same song as the German "O Tannenbaum", then I believe
the English equivalent is "Oh, Christmas Tree".
KLAUS HARMS:
> Seems to me rather due to the fact that those prefixes do not descend
> from Greek (Ancient Greek, that is),
Being familiar with Greek isn't much help in this issue.
On the large part of the scale we have:
Kilo - Greek for 1000
Mega - Greek for "Big"
Giga - Greek for "Giant"
Tera - Greek for "Monster"
On the other end we have:
mili - Latin for 1000
micro - Greek for "small"
nano - Greek for "dwarf"
pico - (Latin for "small"?)
Thus, apart from Kilo and mili, all the other words mean either "big" or
"small", which isn't much help in sorting out which is which. As for hexa-
and peta- do they mean anything in Norwegian as well? In Greek they mean
"six" and "fly" (imperative), respectively, which doesn't make any sense!
--
Kriton (e-mail: (Email removed))
(WWW: http://dias.cti.gr/~kyrimis
-----
"You should sell an instruction & maintenance manual with these!"
"If I did, what would happen to Man's search for knowledge?"
-----
Eta Beta
#40-#41
Message 33 -
1998-02-03 at 13:49:59
MARCO
>I can't remember A SINGLE story which assumes ducks and/or
>mice to be living in Italy.
Well, if you mean an example of characters living in Rome or Milan
no, I don't think any story as such does exist.
>There are stories where the characters COME to Italy, but they come from
>their Country, and that's a different matter of course!
>I'm not saying you are wrong, I'd just want to see an example.
Well, you mean that in the "Terror of the River" version I already
quoted, the ducks reached the river Ticino by crossing the Atlantic
Ocean first ? That's the only example I recall of, right now.
>And $crooge's bin with the "Lira" sign ?????? I won't believe it
>until you give me a reference...
Sorry, I can't. I just remember this italic "L", but couldn't find
it anywhere, yet. I'll let you know.
HARRY
[on "Top Wages"]
>In the Dutch version, they *redrew* a part of the
>last panel, changing the toy into a stamp with
>a crown on it. The gag was changed to "royal wages".
>It's not as forced as using a footnote, and it's
>better than *not* publishing the gag...
It surely is. I just wouldn't have even thought about modifying
the ART, but it surely was a clever idea.
I just cannot understand why you see footnotes as *forced*,
though (more on this later).
However, the Dutch version of this story seems like another good
candidate for MARCO's "censored & modified" page.
>>I have been researching my own database for Al Hubbard
>>stories with Fethry and found a lot of 'em.
>
>Thanks, but I don't think big indexes like yours
>should be posted to the mailing list...
Well, I've limited my list to '64-'65 to keep it short...
I understand it is unfair to "steal" precious digest space from
such interesting items like Duck Tales, imperial measurement,
how Americans call themselves or, lately, even the bible, with
lists of *comics*, and I do apologies about it, but how, then,
do I seek for contributors' help in identifying those stories,
which was my purpose ?
ON TRANSLATIONS
DON MARKSTEIN
>A footnote is a real-world artifact,
>something that forcibly reminds him of the
>unreality of the story. He may not articulate it in these
>terms, but he'll feel let down and less involved --
>altogether less satisfied. Let the
>story flow smoothly, and give him as little as
>possible to distract him from it.
I can only say that you give a rather grim picture of the average
reader, DON, and you seemingly agree with the idea, shared by Disney
Italia, that such average reader MUST be very young of age and
intellect...
From your description I imagine somebody sticking out his/her tongue,
his/her brow wrinkled in the effort of understanding...
I reckon I'm not too wrong if I say that the likes of Gottfredson,
Barks, Scarpa and Rosa didn't have exactly that kind of reader in
mind, when writing their stories.
However, don't you think that various pages of ads could be much
more distracting than a line or two of footnotes, that could be
skipped with a very minimum of willpower, if found disturbing ?
STEFAN
>Well, I just happen to disagree with you, that's all... I do agree,
>however, with the fact that you disagree with me...
I agree with your disagreement ;-)
[English language versions]
>This is rarely a problem for anyone reading this list - we know how to
>get the original stories.
Well, I'm one of those rare, unfortunate cases. I haven't yet recovered
from the "Diamond Affair", and my WDC subscription is still
"desaparecido".
>More than once, Swedish editors have urged me to re-write and modernize
>the dialogue. <snip>
>So maybe I'm overly conservative, but I always refused to comply.
>(Stubborn? Who? Me?) Why, I remember many of the reprinted stories
>from my childhood! I can quote them almost verbatim. Who am
>I to try to improve on such classics? And if the stories aren't from my
>childhood, they are certainly from somebody else's.
Great ! That's something we agree on. :-)
Cheers
Eta Beta
email to : (Email removed)
------------------------------------------
"Do you suffer from long-term memory loss ?"
"I don't remember..."
(Chumbawamba '97)
------------------------------------------
>I can't remember A SINGLE story which assumes ducks and/or
>mice to be living in Italy.
Well, if you mean an example of characters living in Rome or Milan
no, I don't think any story as such does exist.
>There are stories where the characters COME to Italy, but they come from
>their Country, and that's a different matter of course!
>I'm not saying you are wrong, I'd just want to see an example.
Well, you mean that in the "Terror of the River" version I already
quoted, the ducks reached the river Ticino by crossing the Atlantic
Ocean first ? That's the only example I recall of, right now.
>And $crooge's bin with the "Lira" sign ?????? I won't believe it
>until you give me a reference...
Sorry, I can't. I just remember this italic "L", but couldn't find
it anywhere, yet. I'll let you know.
HARRY
[on "Top Wages"]
>In the Dutch version, they *redrew* a part of the
>last panel, changing the toy into a stamp with
>a crown on it. The gag was changed to "royal wages".
>It's not as forced as using a footnote, and it's
>better than *not* publishing the gag...
It surely is. I just wouldn't have even thought about modifying
the ART, but it surely was a clever idea.
I just cannot understand why you see footnotes as *forced*,
though (more on this later).
However, the Dutch version of this story seems like another good
candidate for MARCO's "censored & modified" page.
>>I have been researching my own database for Al Hubbard
>>stories with Fethry and found a lot of 'em.
>
>Thanks, but I don't think big indexes like yours
>should be posted to the mailing list...
Well, I've limited my list to '64-'65 to keep it short...
I understand it is unfair to "steal" precious digest space from
such interesting items like Duck Tales, imperial measurement,
how Americans call themselves or, lately, even the bible, with
lists of *comics*, and I do apologies about it, but how, then,
do I seek for contributors' help in identifying those stories,
which was my purpose ?
ON TRANSLATIONS
DON MARKSTEIN
>A footnote is a real-world artifact,
>something that forcibly reminds him of the
>unreality of the story. He may not articulate it in these
>terms, but he'll feel let down and less involved --
>altogether less satisfied. Let the
>story flow smoothly, and give him as little as
>possible to distract him from it.
I can only say that you give a rather grim picture of the average
reader, DON, and you seemingly agree with the idea, shared by Disney
Italia, that such average reader MUST be very young of age and
intellect...
From your description I imagine somebody sticking out his/her tongue,
his/her brow wrinkled in the effort of understanding...
I reckon I'm not too wrong if I say that the likes of Gottfredson,
Barks, Scarpa and Rosa didn't have exactly that kind of reader in
mind, when writing their stories.
However, don't you think that various pages of ads could be much
more distracting than a line or two of footnotes, that could be
skipped with a very minimum of willpower, if found disturbing ?
STEFAN
>Well, I just happen to disagree with you, that's all... I do agree,
>however, with the fact that you disagree with me...
I agree with your disagreement ;-)
[English language versions]
>This is rarely a problem for anyone reading this list - we know how to
>get the original stories.
Well, I'm one of those rare, unfortunate cases. I haven't yet recovered
from the "Diamond Affair", and my WDC subscription is still
"desaparecido".
>More than once, Swedish editors have urged me to re-write and modernize
>the dialogue. <snip>
>So maybe I'm overly conservative, but I always refused to comply.
>(Stubborn? Who? Me?) Why, I remember many of the reprinted stories
>from my childhood! I can quote them almost verbatim. Who am
>I to try to improve on such classics? And if the stories aren't from my
>childhood, they are certainly from somebody else's.
Great ! That's something we agree on. :-)
Cheers
Eta Beta
email to : (Email removed)
------------------------------------------
"Do you suffer from long-term memory loss ?"
"I don't remember..."
(Chumbawamba '97)
------------------------------------------
Fluks, H.W.
I'm dreaming of a white February...
Message 34 -
1998-02-03 at 15:56:06
Dwight:
>I would have thought "O Denneboom" is a Dutch translation of "O Tannenbaum"
>("Oh Christmas Tree" in English...)
I didn't know there was an English equivalent of this song.
That's why I said it was something like "Jingle Bells", since
it has a similar atmosphere, without any Christian references.
>An interesting subject to consider might be American Christmas customs that
>have filtered into Europe because of Disney comics.
Indeed the American Christmas habits (and also Valentine, for instance)
have conquered Europe after the war. I don't think you can solely
blame that on Disney comics; Disney comics were just a part
of the flood of USA culture that came to us.
>Interestingly, the original Dutch Disney comic covers seem to hold fast to
>Dutch Christmas customs, showing their traditional St. Nicholas and his
>politically incorrect assistant, Black Peter...
Slight technical correction: St. Nicolas ("Sinterklaas")
is not a Christmas custom. His "birthday" is December 6th,
and the feast of giving presents with poems is on December
5th. That's one reason that *both* St. Nicolas *and* Santa
Claus can visit the Dutch children: they won't walk
in each other's way.
So, in the Dutch weekly #49, there is a (Dutch produced) "Sinterklaas"
story, while in week 50 or 51, there can be an (American or Egmont)
"Santa Claus" story.
About Black Pete: a funny thing is that Alberto Becattini lists
him ("Zwarte Piet") as a (Dutch-produced) recurring Disney
character. While he is in fact just part of the Dutch culture.
He used to be a Moor from Spain, but political correct people
state that he is in fact a chimney wiper (exp?) from Italy.
--Harry.
><><><><
>I would have thought "O Denneboom" is a Dutch translation of "O Tannenbaum"
>("Oh Christmas Tree" in English...)
I didn't know there was an English equivalent of this song.
That's why I said it was something like "Jingle Bells", since
it has a similar atmosphere, without any Christian references.
>An interesting subject to consider might be American Christmas customs that
>have filtered into Europe because of Disney comics.
Indeed the American Christmas habits (and also Valentine, for instance)
have conquered Europe after the war. I don't think you can solely
blame that on Disney comics; Disney comics were just a part
of the flood of USA culture that came to us.
>Interestingly, the original Dutch Disney comic covers seem to hold fast to
>Dutch Christmas customs, showing their traditional St. Nicholas and his
>politically incorrect assistant, Black Peter...
Slight technical correction: St. Nicolas ("Sinterklaas")
is not a Christmas custom. His "birthday" is December 6th,
and the feast of giving presents with poems is on December
5th. That's one reason that *both* St. Nicolas *and* Santa
Claus can visit the Dutch children: they won't walk
in each other's way.
So, in the Dutch weekly #49, there is a (Dutch produced) "Sinterklaas"
story, while in week 50 or 51, there can be an (American or Egmont)
"Santa Claus" story.
About Black Pete: a funny thing is that Alberto Becattini lists
him ("Zwarte Piet") as a (Dutch-produced) recurring Disney
character. While he is in fact just part of the Dutch culture.
He used to be a Moor from Spain, but political correct people
state that he is in fact a chimney wiper (exp?) from Italy.
--Harry.
><><><><
Augie De Blieck Jr.
a few questions
Message 35 -
1998-02-03 at 17:01:35
DEAN:
> Two, when does the William Van Horn series of Gladstone albums come
> out? I thought they should be listed by now but perhaps I am mixed up.
They're not listed for April, so maybe May.
Speaking of which, my apologies to one and all for not posting the Gladstone
solicitations for the month of April yet. I hope to do it later tonight. Hang
in there.
-Augie
----------------------------------------------------------------
Augie De Blieck Jr. * (Email removed) * (Email removed) <*>
Pipeline Commentary and Review: New Comic Book Commentary
Every Sunday: http://www.nic.com/~augie/pipeline/pipeline.htm
> Two, when does the William Van Horn series of Gladstone albums come
> out? I thought they should be listed by now but perhaps I am mixed up.
They're not listed for April, so maybe May.
Speaking of which, my apologies to one and all for not posting the Gladstone
solicitations for the month of April yet. I hope to do it later tonight. Hang
in there.
-Augie
----------------------------------------------------------------
Augie De Blieck Jr. * (Email removed) * (Email removed) <*>
Pipeline Commentary and Review: New Comic Book Commentary
Every Sunday: http://www.nic.com/~augie/pipeline/pipeline.htm
Rich Bellacera
Fethry's First
Message 36 -
1998-02-03 at 17:19:01
DAVID GERSTEIN:
[RE: Fethry's First]
Perhaps "The Health Nut" [which I suppose corresponds to "Topolino" #453
(Aug. 2, 1964) in "Paperino e il fanatico igienista"] was indeed his
introduction
to the Disney Universe, and "Donald's Buzzin' Cousin" was written and drawn
'after-the-fact' as a means to introduce Fethry both to the US market, and to
explain why Donald seemed to already be familiar with Fethry the first time he
appeared. In other words, perhaps "Donald's Buzzin' Cousin" could be sort of
'flashback' tale (except Americans wouldn't have known this since we hadn't
seen him before). I've noticed that many characters seem to just appear in
the
Disney Universe without a proper introduction. It's just nice that, his first
appearance notwithstanding, Fethry was indeed granted a proper introduction
tale.
-Rich (xephyr)
http://www.jps.net/xephyr/rich/disney.html
[RE: Fethry's First]
Perhaps "The Health Nut" [which I suppose corresponds to "Topolino" #453
(Aug. 2, 1964) in "Paperino e il fanatico igienista"] was indeed his
introduction
to the Disney Universe, and "Donald's Buzzin' Cousin" was written and drawn
'after-the-fact' as a means to introduce Fethry both to the US market, and to
explain why Donald seemed to already be familiar with Fethry the first time he
appeared. In other words, perhaps "Donald's Buzzin' Cousin" could be sort of
'flashback' tale (except Americans wouldn't have known this since we hadn't
seen him before). I've noticed that many characters seem to just appear in
the
Disney Universe without a proper introduction. It's just nice that, his first
appearance notwithstanding, Fethry was indeed granted a proper introduction
tale.
-Rich (xephyr)
http://www.jps.net/xephyr/rich/disney.html
Michael Naiman
Fethry
Message 37 -
1998-02-03 at 17:43:44
David G wrote:
>I'm ready to conclude that "Donald's Buzzin' Cousin" is the
>first-written Fethry story,
Seeing that F. was a hippy/beatnik type of character, drawing from my own
language experiences from the late 60s...does this indicate that Fethry was
, as we used to say, "getting a buzz-on?" ...imbibing or otherwise???
>I'm ready to conclude that "Donald's Buzzin' Cousin" is the
>first-written Fethry story,
Seeing that F. was a hippy/beatnik type of character, drawing from my own
language experiences from the late 60s...does this indicate that Fethry was
, as we used to say, "getting a buzz-on?" ...imbibing or otherwise???
D Decker
I'm dreaming of a white February...
Message 38 -
1998-02-03 at 18:28:07
On Feb 3, 2:56pm, Fluks, H.W. wrote:
> Subject: I'm dreaming of a white February...
> Slight technical correction: St. Nicolas ("Sinterklaas")
> is not a Christmas custom. His "birthday" is December 6th,
> and the feast of giving presents with poems is on December
> 5th. That's one reason that *both* St. Nicolas *and* Santa
> Claus can visit the Dutch children: they won't walk
> in each other's way.
That's interesting, since Sinterklaas and Santa Claus are the same person. That
is, the evolution was St. Nicholas (Sint Nikolaas) to Sinterklaas to Santa
Claus. The folklore seems to have split with both versions becoming accepted at
the same time. In the US, Santa Claus is sometimes referred to as St. Nicholas
or some variation like "jolly old St. Nick." (He's also sometimes called Kris
Kringle, which is kind of strange since that originated as the German
"Christkindl" or Christ child. Even as a kid hearing about Christmas Customs in
Foreign Lands, I thought that the idea current in some countries that presents
were delivered by Baby Jesus Himself was a bit odd. I mean, just a few months
later we celebrated Easter, which had to do with what happened to Jesus as a
grown-up man, so he couldn't still be a baby delivering presents, right?)
In the classic 1940s American Christmas movie, "Miracle on 34th Street," about
a department store Santa Claus who just may be the real thing, there's a scene
in which a little Dutch girl (a war orphan adopted by American parents) is
taken to see Santa, and she recognizes him as Sinterklaas. To everybody's
astonishment, this Santa Claus can speak Dutch and he and the little girl sing
a traditional Dutch song about Sinterklaasje together. (A skeptical department
store employee says later, "I can speak French, but that doesn't make me Joan
of Arc!")
>
Somebody mentioned that Christmas is celebrated in Japan. To judge by the anime
I've seen, it certainly is, though only a small minority of the Japanese are
Christian. But hey, any excuse for a party! It leads to oddities like the
series Oh My Goddess!, which has an episode in which the probably non-Christian
Japanese hero is working extra jobs so he can afford to buy a Christmas present
for the girl he's living with, who just happens to be a Norse goddess living on
Earth.
In Duckburg (to wrench this posting back on topic finally), Christmas is
obviously celebrated as at least a secular holiday and Santa Claus has been
shown enough times as literally real that he's almost as canonical a Disney
character as the Mouse and the Duck. It might be going a little _too_ deep to
ask what the actual religious background of the Disney Universe is. Just what
religious doctrines are practiced by the denizens of Disneyland? Is the
traditional Christian god worshipped -- did He create the anthropomorphic
characters and do they have immortal souls? It would be a bit of a shocker to
pin some minister down on Earth Disney and ask him about the details of his
religion, and get a reply like, "There is but one God, and His name is Walt!"
--Dwight (in it a little too deep this time) Decker
> Subject: I'm dreaming of a white February...
> Slight technical correction: St. Nicolas ("Sinterklaas")
> is not a Christmas custom. His "birthday" is December 6th,
> and the feast of giving presents with poems is on December
> 5th. That's one reason that *both* St. Nicolas *and* Santa
> Claus can visit the Dutch children: they won't walk
> in each other's way.
That's interesting, since Sinterklaas and Santa Claus are the same person. That
is, the evolution was St. Nicholas (Sint Nikolaas) to Sinterklaas to Santa
Claus. The folklore seems to have split with both versions becoming accepted at
the same time. In the US, Santa Claus is sometimes referred to as St. Nicholas
or some variation like "jolly old St. Nick." (He's also sometimes called Kris
Kringle, which is kind of strange since that originated as the German
"Christkindl" or Christ child. Even as a kid hearing about Christmas Customs in
Foreign Lands, I thought that the idea current in some countries that presents
were delivered by Baby Jesus Himself was a bit odd. I mean, just a few months
later we celebrated Easter, which had to do with what happened to Jesus as a
grown-up man, so he couldn't still be a baby delivering presents, right?)
In the classic 1940s American Christmas movie, "Miracle on 34th Street," about
a department store Santa Claus who just may be the real thing, there's a scene
in which a little Dutch girl (a war orphan adopted by American parents) is
taken to see Santa, and she recognizes him as Sinterklaas. To everybody's
astonishment, this Santa Claus can speak Dutch and he and the little girl sing
a traditional Dutch song about Sinterklaasje together. (A skeptical department
store employee says later, "I can speak French, but that doesn't make me Joan
of Arc!")
>
Somebody mentioned that Christmas is celebrated in Japan. To judge by the anime
I've seen, it certainly is, though only a small minority of the Japanese are
Christian. But hey, any excuse for a party! It leads to oddities like the
series Oh My Goddess!, which has an episode in which the probably non-Christian
Japanese hero is working extra jobs so he can afford to buy a Christmas present
for the girl he's living with, who just happens to be a Norse goddess living on
Earth.
In Duckburg (to wrench this posting back on topic finally), Christmas is
obviously celebrated as at least a secular holiday and Santa Claus has been
shown enough times as literally real that he's almost as canonical a Disney
character as the Mouse and the Duck. It might be going a little _too_ deep to
ask what the actual religious background of the Disney Universe is. Just what
religious doctrines are practiced by the denizens of Disneyland? Is the
traditional Christian god worshipped -- did He create the anthropomorphic
characters and do they have immortal souls? It would be a bit of a shocker to
pin some minister down on Earth Disney and ask him about the details of his
religion, and get a reply like, "There is but one God, and His name is Walt!"
--Dwight (in it a little too deep this time) Decker
Vidar Svendsen
I'm dreaming of a white February...
Message 39 -
1998-02-03 at 19:36:15
Dwight (in it a little too deep this time) Decker:
>Somebody mentioned that Christmas is celebrated in Japan. To judge by the anime
>I've seen, it certainly is, though only a small minority of the Japanese are
>Christian. But hey, any excuse for a party! It leads to oddities like the
>series Oh My Goddess!, which has an episode in which the probably non-Christian
>Japanese hero is working extra jobs so he can afford to buy a Christmas present
>for the girl he's living with, who just happens to be a Norse goddess living on
>Earth.
I once talked to some Norwegian missionaries in Japan and they told me some
Japanese
had asked them: "So, you mean you celebrate christmas in Norway too???"
The Japanese didn't know the origin of the Christmas celebration.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Vidar Svendsen http://home.sol.no/vsvends
Ja da. Du bad meg jo
hogge inn 100 ganger
at du ikke skulle spise
din nistes mat.
Obelix i "Damenes intogsmarsj"
http://home.sol.no/~vidasven/
>Somebody mentioned that Christmas is celebrated in Japan. To judge by the anime
>I've seen, it certainly is, though only a small minority of the Japanese are
>Christian. But hey, any excuse for a party! It leads to oddities like the
>series Oh My Goddess!, which has an episode in which the probably non-Christian
>Japanese hero is working extra jobs so he can afford to buy a Christmas present
>for the girl he's living with, who just happens to be a Norse goddess living on
>Earth.
I once talked to some Norwegian missionaries in Japan and they told me some
Japanese
had asked them: "So, you mean you celebrate christmas in Norway too???"
The Japanese didn't know the origin of the Christmas celebration.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Vidar Svendsen http://home.sol.no/vsvends
Ja da. Du bad meg jo
hogge inn 100 ganger
at du ikke skulle spise
din nistes mat.
Obelix i "Damenes intogsmarsj"
http://home.sol.no/~vidasven/
DeanMary
A few questions
Message 40 -
1998-02-03 at 20:40:36
Two quick questions:
One, could someone tell me how many pages Don Rosa's Gladstone Gander
anniversery story is?
Two, when does the William Van Horn series of Gladstone albums come
out? I thought they should be listed by now but perhaps I am mixed up.
Thanks!
Dean Rekich
One, could someone tell me how many pages Don Rosa's Gladstone Gander
anniversery story is?
Two, when does the William Van Horn series of Gladstone albums come
out? I thought they should be listed by now but perhaps I am mixed up.
Thanks!
Dean Rekich
Paul Andreas Aasen
Don Rosa story in Norway!! (and maybe also in Denmark)
Message 41 -
1998-02-03 at 20:41:04
ANNOUNCEMENT:
The Eldorado-story by Don Rosa is finally going to be published in =
Norway (as I know)
It is printed as a extra-number (did everyone understand that?)
It gets out here in #8 of Donald Duck & Co. the 17th of February (The =
10th for subscribers, just like me.)
In the issue contains also a Barks -story. I don't know the English =
title, but in Norwegian it's called "En god id=E8"
This was all I had to say, I hope you all understood it...
- Paul Andreas Aasen
"Pallas"
(Email removed)
The Eldorado-story by Don Rosa is finally going to be published in =
Norway (as I know)
It is printed as a extra-number (did everyone understand that?)
It gets out here in #8 of Donald Duck & Co. the 17th of February (The =
10th for subscribers, just like me.)
In the issue contains also a Barks -story. I don't know the English =
title, but in Norwegian it's called "En god id=E8"
This was all I had to say, I hope you all understood it...
- Paul Andreas Aasen
"Pallas"
(Email removed)
Luca Boschi
FETHRY, AGAIN!
Message 42 -
1998-02-03 at 21:16:05
Hi, everybody!
> ETA:
> I'm working on a Fethry index now that will provide English
> titles and code data on all the stories you listed the other day (as
> well as a few that TOPOLINO and/or Egmont don't appear to have used).
I'm very interested in this, also because I hope that someone, in Italy,
decides to get all those stories and reprint them in the form and size
they deserve (maybe I can suggest to do it to someone). I only want to
say you, you're making a good work!
DAVE
> In the meantime though, I should mention that now S 64008 (X
> 4008) does *not* seem to be the first Fethry story, even if it's the
> first that was done for the overseas program. While Fethry *does* arrive
> via train, the English original has no equivalent to some European
> versions' comment that Donald hadn't known what Fethry looks like.
Very interesting!
> Don out loud about what crazy obsession Fethry has *this* time - as if we've
> seen several such obsessions before. The story's title, "The Health
> Nut," also implies nothing about this being the first appearance of a
> major character.
> Contrast this to the Strobl-drawn, non-S-coded "Donald's Buzzin'
> Cousin" - which we know to have been *published* a year later and have
> stated (up until now) to have been produced later, too. Now I'm not so
> sure. There we have DD saying he hasn't seen Fethry since ducklinghood,
> and acting totally unacquainted with Fethry's quirks when he sees them.
> The story's title suggests it to be the introduction of the character.
> And the artistic model Tony Strobl uses for Fethry is identical to that
> in S 64008 but totally unlike that in any later S-coded Fethry story.
I have always been puzzled by this strange fact. So, I can assume that
maybe the Strobl version represents the very first story with Fethry.
But it was finished, ready to be printed, too early; when ONLY the
character's model was drawn, but his personality was not so well
defined, and surely not his environment and attitudes. Maybe the
story-man who wrote that story is NOT Kinney but, I guess, Vic Lockman
(someone can control?), who wrote tons and tons of stories.
Surely, it seems not to come from the same pen who wrote the stories of
Fethry known only in Europe. And the same thing I can say for the two
other stories with Fethry published in USA, both drawn by Strobl.
Indeed, I well remember an interview I read on a fanzine many years ago,
where the guy who directed the Overseas line of comics in '60es (Tom
Goldberg I think) explained Fethry's personality. He was a reader-type,
and from the books (well or badly read it does'n matter) he'd get all
his knowledge, wishing to experiment everything. From here, the idea for
the gags of his very first stories.
Well, if you read all the earliest stories by Kinney-Hubbard, you can
find this characteristic in Fethry's way of acting. And you can also
see a well-defined connection with Tabby, unexplored in "Donald's
Buzzin' Cousin".
So, I can say:"Donald's Buzzin' Cousin" WAS, in fact, Fethry's first
appearance; a story that, for some reasons, someone at Western decided
non to use for the Overseas market (and used it only some years later
for the comic books as it was "one-shot" or so). In 1964 Fethry, 00
Duck, Hustler Duck, H. H. Moe, and so on, would have been developed ONLY
for the Overseas market, to avoid that their stories "contrasted" with
the comic book ones, since it was necessary to ADD something new to
them, not to fight with them. This explains Fethry's model evolution,
decided by Hubbard, but followed also by Strobl, who in the period of
"Donald's Buzzin' Cousin"' publication (I think, I'm not sure) was JUST
DRAWING Fethry in a different way, for the Overseas market. In stories
written (this time YES!) by Dick Kinney.
I can add something more.
On an italian book (an old hard cover book planned to be given only to
"Topolino"s subscribers) I have seen some pages of storyboard drawn by
Kinney for a story starring Fethry, planned to be drawn by Strobl. Well,
the same Kinney drew Fethry with less hair than in the first Hubbard's
model. So, I can deduce that was *he* the responsable of this change in
Don's cousin's look. He drew Fethry's hair very fastly all the time, and
Hubbard follewed his indications.
What do you think about theory (comproved by facts, anyway)?
Bye!
Luca Boschi
--------------------------------
End of Disney comics Digest V98 Issue #43
*****************************************
> ETA:
> I'm working on a Fethry index now that will provide English
> titles and code data on all the stories you listed the other day (as
> well as a few that TOPOLINO and/or Egmont don't appear to have used).
I'm very interested in this, also because I hope that someone, in Italy,
decides to get all those stories and reprint them in the form and size
they deserve (maybe I can suggest to do it to someone). I only want to
say you, you're making a good work!
DAVE
> In the meantime though, I should mention that now S 64008 (X
> 4008) does *not* seem to be the first Fethry story, even if it's the
> first that was done for the overseas program. While Fethry *does* arrive
> via train, the English original has no equivalent to some European
> versions' comment that Donald hadn't known what Fethry looks like.
Very interesting!
> Don out loud about what crazy obsession Fethry has *this* time - as if we've
> seen several such obsessions before. The story's title, "The Health
> Nut," also implies nothing about this being the first appearance of a
> major character.
> Contrast this to the Strobl-drawn, non-S-coded "Donald's Buzzin'
> Cousin" - which we know to have been *published* a year later and have
> stated (up until now) to have been produced later, too. Now I'm not so
> sure. There we have DD saying he hasn't seen Fethry since ducklinghood,
> and acting totally unacquainted with Fethry's quirks when he sees them.
> The story's title suggests it to be the introduction of the character.
> And the artistic model Tony Strobl uses for Fethry is identical to that
> in S 64008 but totally unlike that in any later S-coded Fethry story.
I have always been puzzled by this strange fact. So, I can assume that
maybe the Strobl version represents the very first story with Fethry.
But it was finished, ready to be printed, too early; when ONLY the
character's model was drawn, but his personality was not so well
defined, and surely not his environment and attitudes. Maybe the
story-man who wrote that story is NOT Kinney but, I guess, Vic Lockman
(someone can control?), who wrote tons and tons of stories.
Surely, it seems not to come from the same pen who wrote the stories of
Fethry known only in Europe. And the same thing I can say for the two
other stories with Fethry published in USA, both drawn by Strobl.
Indeed, I well remember an interview I read on a fanzine many years ago,
where the guy who directed the Overseas line of comics in '60es (Tom
Goldberg I think) explained Fethry's personality. He was a reader-type,
and from the books (well or badly read it does'n matter) he'd get all
his knowledge, wishing to experiment everything. From here, the idea for
the gags of his very first stories.
Well, if you read all the earliest stories by Kinney-Hubbard, you can
find this characteristic in Fethry's way of acting. And you can also
see a well-defined connection with Tabby, unexplored in "Donald's
Buzzin' Cousin".
So, I can say:"Donald's Buzzin' Cousin" WAS, in fact, Fethry's first
appearance; a story that, for some reasons, someone at Western decided
non to use for the Overseas market (and used it only some years later
for the comic books as it was "one-shot" or so). In 1964 Fethry, 00
Duck, Hustler Duck, H. H. Moe, and so on, would have been developed ONLY
for the Overseas market, to avoid that their stories "contrasted" with
the comic book ones, since it was necessary to ADD something new to
them, not to fight with them. This explains Fethry's model evolution,
decided by Hubbard, but followed also by Strobl, who in the period of
"Donald's Buzzin' Cousin"' publication (I think, I'm not sure) was JUST
DRAWING Fethry in a different way, for the Overseas market. In stories
written (this time YES!) by Dick Kinney.
I can add something more.
On an italian book (an old hard cover book planned to be given only to
"Topolino"s subscribers) I have seen some pages of storyboard drawn by
Kinney for a story starring Fethry, planned to be drawn by Strobl. Well,
the same Kinney drew Fethry with less hair than in the first Hubbard's
model. So, I can deduce that was *he* the responsable of this change in
Don's cousin's look. He drew Fethry's hair very fastly all the time, and
Hubbard follewed his indications.
What do you think about theory (comproved by facts, anyway)?
Bye!
Luca Boschi
--------------------------------
End of Disney comics Digest V98 Issue #43
*****************************************
Stefan Diös
Disney comics Digest V98 #42
Message 43 -
1998-02-03 at 23:22:58
DWIGHT DECKER about footnotes and translations:
>I've mentioned this before, but... I have a Swedish album of Hagar the Horrible
>reprints where most strips are translated into Swedish but those with
>untranslatable puns are left in English with footnotes added to explain the
>gag.
Yes, I've seen this happen in similar albums. Sometimes the untranslatable
strips are put in a special section, with comments from the
translator/editor. I like the concept, but to my knowledge it has never been
done in Disney comics in Sweden. We would have to rebuild a few traditions
to do that... and as may have been hinted on these pages before, I'm not
exactly the revolutionary type...
Then, of course, there are the Asterix-style footnotes used to explain the
occasional Latin sentences that slip into the dialog. This I have used on at
least one occasion, in an album supposedly targeted for older readers. (I
think I got the Latin wrong, but thats another story...) So I'm not 100%
averse to this kind of footnote, just to translate some short phrase
inserted in a foreign-set story to add some local scenery. Sort of like the
animal-talk footnotes many writers (even Barks, I think) incorporate in the
artwork: "Translated from eagle lingo: What a dope!" or something like that.
But I wouldn't want a footnote explaining a gag, for the exact reason that
Don Markstein worded so well recently.
I would like to commend Dwight for the rest of this extensive post (Re: Phi
Lambda......". He describes very well what I believe Disney translation is
about. Anyone interested in this topic should read it and save it.
Then, Dwight wrote again in reply to Don Markstein's description of writing
a dialog to empty pictures (no original script to work with):
>Uh, Don...if you provoked outrage, one reasons is because you managed to
>alienate two groups of people whose professional pride and income are at risk
>from this sort of procedure: writers and translators. /-----/ your
colleagues looking at diminished work in the future if this
>kind of thing becomes common won't be cheering you on.
Well, maybe I should interfere here, since I actually cheered Don on in the
same Digest. I don't think Don meant that this should be the preferred way
to work in the future. Rather, his point... well, I should let him speak for
himself. In any case, *my* point is that it's feasible to make a reasonably
good story in this fashion, if it for some reason is'nt possible or
advisable to use the original script.
However, like I told Dwight in private mail:
When I got the script for the children's book in an envelope, I opened it
immediately despite my editor's warning. I wanted to see as much of the
original intentions as possible, before I might decide to scrap them.
Personally, I wouldn't do much good if I were to start from empty balloons.
I could never even write my own stories. I need something to work with. I
might change it, but only when I believe I have a good reason.
I'll admit that I have made deliberate changes even in Barks' tales, but
nowhere near as much as in certain others. I'm still worried every time I
take on a story from a writer I respect. Am I disturbing something that I
can't see or understand? Sometimes I go on to think I should respect all
writers the same. Maybe the ones I don't particularly like really are the
good ones... too good for me to understand and appreciate?!
Even when I did the Italian stories, I naturally wanted to understand
everything as well as possible. Fortunately, Italian isn't that difficult,
and only once every 1000 pages, or something, did I come across something I
really couldn't figure out. My point is that when doing this kind of
"translation" (a word I don't like to use about my own work), it's much more
important to know your own language and to know the characters than it is to
be absolutely fluent in the source language. I won't easily depart from that
idea, but I do agree that writing from empty balloons might be seen as
stretching it quite a bit!
Maybe I also should add that I really don't make as many major changes in
the stories as it might seem from this discussion. Especially not now, when
there are so many excellent writers. I very rarely try to do something about
the plot itself, like in Gladstone's first run... it's much too cumbersome,
even if it might have helped once in a while. I do alter the dialogue in
places at times, to make it clearer, or funnier, or better fit the
characters... but it's not that much. And I certainly stand up for my right
to do so, and make other changes, if at all needed... I want to avoid
mindless, literal translation.
Gee, when I entered this mailing list, I didn't plan to participate at all.
Now, maybe I should get down to actually doing some translating (or
re-scripting...), rather than discussing it...
Quackings,
Stefan Dios
Malmo, Sweden
>I've mentioned this before, but... I have a Swedish album of Hagar the Horrible
>reprints where most strips are translated into Swedish but those with
>untranslatable puns are left in English with footnotes added to explain the
>gag.
Yes, I've seen this happen in similar albums. Sometimes the untranslatable
strips are put in a special section, with comments from the
translator/editor. I like the concept, but to my knowledge it has never been
done in Disney comics in Sweden. We would have to rebuild a few traditions
to do that... and as may have been hinted on these pages before, I'm not
exactly the revolutionary type...
Then, of course, there are the Asterix-style footnotes used to explain the
occasional Latin sentences that slip into the dialog. This I have used on at
least one occasion, in an album supposedly targeted for older readers. (I
think I got the Latin wrong, but thats another story...) So I'm not 100%
averse to this kind of footnote, just to translate some short phrase
inserted in a foreign-set story to add some local scenery. Sort of like the
animal-talk footnotes many writers (even Barks, I think) incorporate in the
artwork: "Translated from eagle lingo: What a dope!" or something like that.
But I wouldn't want a footnote explaining a gag, for the exact reason that
Don Markstein worded so well recently.
I would like to commend Dwight for the rest of this extensive post (Re: Phi
Lambda......". He describes very well what I believe Disney translation is
about. Anyone interested in this topic should read it and save it.
Then, Dwight wrote again in reply to Don Markstein's description of writing
a dialog to empty pictures (no original script to work with):
>Uh, Don...if you provoked outrage, one reasons is because you managed to
>alienate two groups of people whose professional pride and income are at risk
>from this sort of procedure: writers and translators. /-----/ your
colleagues looking at diminished work in the future if this
>kind of thing becomes common won't be cheering you on.
Well, maybe I should interfere here, since I actually cheered Don on in the
same Digest. I don't think Don meant that this should be the preferred way
to work in the future. Rather, his point... well, I should let him speak for
himself. In any case, *my* point is that it's feasible to make a reasonably
good story in this fashion, if it for some reason is'nt possible or
advisable to use the original script.
However, like I told Dwight in private mail:
When I got the script for the children's book in an envelope, I opened it
immediately despite my editor's warning. I wanted to see as much of the
original intentions as possible, before I might decide to scrap them.
Personally, I wouldn't do much good if I were to start from empty balloons.
I could never even write my own stories. I need something to work with. I
might change it, but only when I believe I have a good reason.
I'll admit that I have made deliberate changes even in Barks' tales, but
nowhere near as much as in certain others. I'm still worried every time I
take on a story from a writer I respect. Am I disturbing something that I
can't see or understand? Sometimes I go on to think I should respect all
writers the same. Maybe the ones I don't particularly like really are the
good ones... too good for me to understand and appreciate?!
Even when I did the Italian stories, I naturally wanted to understand
everything as well as possible. Fortunately, Italian isn't that difficult,
and only once every 1000 pages, or something, did I come across something I
really couldn't figure out. My point is that when doing this kind of
"translation" (a word I don't like to use about my own work), it's much more
important to know your own language and to know the characters than it is to
be absolutely fluent in the source language. I won't easily depart from that
idea, but I do agree that writing from empty balloons might be seen as
stretching it quite a bit!
Maybe I also should add that I really don't make as many major changes in
the stories as it might seem from this discussion. Especially not now, when
there are so many excellent writers. I very rarely try to do something about
the plot itself, like in Gladstone's first run... it's much too cumbersome,
even if it might have helped once in a while. I do alter the dialogue in
places at times, to make it clearer, or funnier, or better fit the
characters... but it's not that much. And I certainly stand up for my right
to do so, and make other changes, if at all needed... I want to avoid
mindless, literal translation.
Gee, when I entered this mailing list, I didn't plan to participate at all.
Now, maybe I should get down to actually doing some translating (or
re-scripting...), rather than discussing it...
Quackings,
Stefan Dios
Malmo, Sweden
Wilmer Rivers
Words and pictures
Message 44 -
1998-02-03 at 23:25:03
Maybe a couple of years ago, Don Rosa told this List that attendees at
comics conventions [Let's not call them "fans", since it was obvious
that they had never heard of him or, for that matter, read a Disney
comic] would meet him, learn that he both writes and draws his
stories, and they would ask, "Do you do the writing or the drawing
first?" Don would tell them with a straight face, "I just draw some
random pictures in a sequence of panels and then go back and write a
story to fit them." They would accept that ridiculous explanation quite
happily, and they would go away thinking that they now knew how Disney
comics were created! Maybe they weren't too far wrong, since now Don
Markstein tells us:
> A few months ago, I provoked outrage among some folks
> here, when I mentioned that I'm writing American dialog for
> Dutch Bucky Bug stories, without even SEEING the original
> wording. (I'm working from bare art with empty balloons.)
OK, so it's not exactly the same thing as working from a bunch of random
drawings created with no story in mind, but it's not **too** different
an approach!
> How can I possibly do justice to the original story without even
> reading it? Well -- I DO have to follow the art, so how far from
> the story can I stray?
Er, have you even seen Woody Allen's "What's Up, Tiger Lilly?"? :)
(For the uninitiated, that was one of Woody Allen's first films, in
which he took a second-rate Japanese spy movie - a dumb imitation of
a James Bond adventure - and he dubbed in an English-language sound
track using dialog that he wrote which had absolutely nothing to do with
the original Japanese spy story! The results were often hilarious.)
Wilmer Rivers
comics conventions [Let's not call them "fans", since it was obvious
that they had never heard of him or, for that matter, read a Disney
comic] would meet him, learn that he both writes and draws his
stories, and they would ask, "Do you do the writing or the drawing
first?" Don would tell them with a straight face, "I just draw some
random pictures in a sequence of panels and then go back and write a
story to fit them." They would accept that ridiculous explanation quite
happily, and they would go away thinking that they now knew how Disney
comics were created! Maybe they weren't too far wrong, since now Don
Markstein tells us:
> A few months ago, I provoked outrage among some folks
> here, when I mentioned that I'm writing American dialog for
> Dutch Bucky Bug stories, without even SEEING the original
> wording. (I'm working from bare art with empty balloons.)
OK, so it's not exactly the same thing as working from a bunch of random
drawings created with no story in mind, but it's not **too** different
an approach!
> How can I possibly do justice to the original story without even
> reading it? Well -- I DO have to follow the art, so how far from
> the story can I stray?
Er, have you even seen Woody Allen's "What's Up, Tiger Lilly?"? :)
(For the uninitiated, that was one of Woody Allen's first films, in
which he took a second-rate Japanese spy movie - a dumb imitation of
a James Bond adventure - and he dubbed in an English-language sound
track using dialog that he wrote which had absolutely nothing to do with
the original Japanese spy story! The results were often hilarious.)
Wilmer Rivers
Marco Barlotti
Fethry (seemingly the only topic subject nowadays...)
Message 45 -
1998-02-04 at 00:54:43
LUCA:
>So, I can say:"Donald's Buzzin' Cousin" WAS, in fact, Fethry's first
>appearance; a story that, for some reasons, someone at Western decided
>non to use for the Overseas market (and used it only some years later
>for the comic books as it was "one-shot" or so).
Are you implying that "Donald's Buzzin' Cousin" was never published in
Italy? But it was, in June 1966 ("Almanacco Topolino "). This is only
**two** years after his first appearance on "Topolino". I remember that I
was puzzled by this "second birth" of the character. I was even more puzzled
because I recognized Strobl's drawings as "original American", while I
strongly suspected at that time Hubbard's drawings to be Italian...
Marco
http://marcobar.cce.unifi.it/Comics
>So, I can say:"Donald's Buzzin' Cousin" WAS, in fact, Fethry's first
>appearance; a story that, for some reasons, someone at Western decided
>non to use for the Overseas market (and used it only some years later
>for the comic books as it was "one-shot" or so).
Are you implying that "Donald's Buzzin' Cousin" was never published in
Italy? But it was, in June 1966 ("Almanacco Topolino "). This is only
**two** years after his first appearance on "Topolino". I remember that I
was puzzled by this "second birth" of the character. I was even more puzzled
because I recognized Strobl's drawings as "original American", while I
strongly suspected at that time Hubbard's drawings to be Italian...
Marco
http://marcobar.cce.unifi.it/Comics