ETA BETA --
>> "It is a sad fact that less and less people read books,
>> nowadays, and Mark Twain is probably, for most, just a boring
>> memory from school, at best."
Not in my house. My children enjoyed our bedtime reading
of TOM SAWYER, HUCKLEBERRY FINN, and THE PRINCE AND THE PAUPER.
And by the way, in the U.S. at least, book sales are UP
over the past few years.
Anyway, the question is not whether or not a few English
words will harm the people reading them. It's whether or not it
will harm the STORY.
It will do so by making the story falter for a moment,
forcibly returning the reader to the real world. Having a
character drift in and out of various languages in the middle of
a conversation is the sort of thing that might work as a story
point (if it were set up right), or as an ongoing character
trait, or in other circumstances in which it would be PART OF
THE STORY. But to do it just because the gag doesn't translate
and the translator isn't allowed (or is too lazy) to put in a
substitute gag -- no.
Translation, like everything else that goes to make up
the reading experience, should be seamless. It should not call
attention to itself.
>> "I can only say that you give a rather grim picture of the
>> average reader"
No, you're the one giving a grim picture, by carrying on
as if there's something WRONG with simply wanting to enter a
story and not be reminded of the Real World for a few minutes. I
don't understand why you think it's a sign of intellectual
deficiency to want the story to be a story and not a lesson in
linguistic and cultural diversity.
Y'know, we run into stuff like that here in America, too
-- cases where a translated story will leave a few untranslatable
phrases in the original language. I always pause to wrinkle my
nose at the laziness, intellectual snobbery, or whatever it was
that made them do that instead of coming up with a way to keep
the story flowing the same way, but with different words.
And why is it that I pause? Because they MAKE me -- they
interrupt the story with something that doesn't belong, and I'm
back in the real world, and before getting back into the story --
IF it was good enough to warrant the bother, and it isn't always
-- I wrinkle my nose at them.
And I'm smart enough to get it. I can usually figure out
about what the phrase means; and if not, I can interpolate
something and keep reading. In fact, I often DO think of what
should have gone in. But it's an interruption, and therefore has
no place in a story that is intended solely for entertainment.
>> "I reckon I'm not too wrong if I say that the likes of
>> Gottfredson, Barks, Scarpa and Rosa didn't have exactly that
>> kind of reader in mind, when writing their stories."
And I reckon you ARE wrong if you think Gottfredson,
Barks, Scarpa and Rosa had any kind of reader in mind who wasn't
primarily interested in an entertaining story.
WILMER RIVERS --
Re: "What's Up Tiger Lily": It was Woody Allen's intention
to provoke laughter from the viewer's knowledge of the mechanics
of the film's creation -- i.e., re-dubbing a Japanese movie
without regard to what its original dialog actually meant -- and
a very good job he did of it, too. But my intention is different
-- it's to create an English-language version of a story, without
calling attention to the fact that it was ever published in any
other language. That can be done in the credits, letter column,
here, or anywhere else -- but it has no business in the story
itself.
It's for others to judge how well I succeeded. But if it
comes out anything like "What's Up Tiger Lily" -- or if the
casual reader, at any time, even WONDERS whether or not I saw
the original dialog -- then I failed.
DWIGHT DECKER --
All this talk about translations fitting word balloons
reminds me of when I watched a subtitled version of Wagner's
Ring Cycle, several years ago. The characters on the stage would
carry on for ten minutes, back and forth, their faces showing a
broad range of moods -- and there would be three words at the
bottom of the screen... Somebody, I concluded, wasn't doing his
job.
I obviously didn't set out to alienate writers, since I
am one; and I assure you, I didn't set out to alienate
translators, either. Speaking as a writer, tho, I simply do not
feel that I am being badly treated by having my words thrown out
of the balloons, and someone else's put in. I mean -- isn't that
what a translator DOES? Would the readers -- especially the
younger ones -- be served if my words were left there? More to
the point, would enough of them come back and read the next
issue?
One important thing to understand -- and this has not been
mentioned AT ALL in this discussion -- is that most of the words
in a comics script are not even INTENDED to be read by the
public, even if the comic is published in its original language
without any editing at all. The great majority of the words are
in the panel descriptions, and my work is well served, no matter
what language the dialog is rendered in, if the artist interprets
them well.
Now, as for translators (like yourself) feeling that their
toes are being stepped on -- or, more to the point, that their
prospects for future employment are damaged -- by the attitude
that a good script is more important than an exact literal
translation of the words -- pardon my French, but balderdash!
Your skills are extremely important, and, I have no doubt, very
much in demand. But in this PARTICULAR case, where so much of the
story is conveyed without any words at all (that the reader ever
sees), your skills in cobbling together euphonious dialog, in
whatever language you're using at the time, are more important
than your skills in knowing what set of words is the closest
approximation in one language to a set of words in another.
A translator's job is more than simply acting as a filter,
inputting one word and outputting another -- a GOOD translator
must also be a good writer, at least in the target language, but
preferably in both. The exact balance of his skills necessary in
any given situation depends on a number of factors. In this case,
where much of the meaning can be inferred from looking at the =
pictures, the balance is more toward good writing.
By the way, you have NO IDEA how much EASIER this Bucky
Bug job would be if I had the original dialog to go by. I sit
absolutely motionless, for impossibly long times, trying to
figure out what they could possibly be saying to one another.
(And by the way, there was one that I just plain would not have
gotten if Harry Fluks hadn't given me a few clues.) Considered
in terms of hourly wages, what I'm making off of this is -- well,
let's put it this way: Gladstone couldn't AFFORD to pay me a
living wage for this. If it weren't balanced by better paying
work from other publishers, I couldn't afford to do it -- and if
it weren't so much FUN, I'd quit!
Quack, Don=
Author
Topic: 199802
(347 messages)
Donald D. Markstein
Junkville Journal
Message 76 -
1998-02-06 at 00:32:27
Shaun M. Knowler
Ducks in Canada
Message 77 -
1998-02-06 at 01:37:52
PAULO:
<< Of course, all Niagara Falls stories are eligible for the list
(even when we just get a short glimpse of Canada across the river). >>
Certainly!
I also came across Barks' "Land of the Totem Poles", which takes place in
my province-of-birth, British Colombia.
-Shaun
Fortuna Favet Fortibus
<< Of course, all Niagara Falls stories are eligible for the list
(even when we just get a short glimpse of Canada across the river). >>
Certainly!
I also came across Barks' "Land of the Totem Poles", which takes place in
my province-of-birth, British Colombia.
-Shaun
Fortuna Favet Fortibus
Tarjei Kidd Olsen
Disney comics Digest V98 #45
Message 78 -
1998-02-06 at 01:56:31
John Lustig:
>
>I just found out today that Anders And & Co. (Nr. 5 - 29. Januar 1998)
>reprints the first part of a story ("No Room for Human Error") that William
>Van Horn and I did several years ago for Disney Comics. The reason I bring
>this up--besides the fact that I've always like this story--is that it's in a
>three-tier format instead of the traditional four-tier that Disney fans in
>Europe or used to.
>
Yes, this story just ran in two issues of the Norwegian 'Donald Duck &
Co.'. I've read it before (in a Gladstone issue, right?), and it's a very
enjoyable story! :)
As far as the panel-layout is concerned, I noticed it was different, but
find this kind of change refreshing. It's always interesting with a bit of
variation; especially in our weekly mag.
-- |Tarjei - Kidd - Olsen|
-- e-mail: (Email removed)
-- Website: http://home.sol.no/~kidd/index.html
-- Panacea: http://home.sol.no/~kjahanse/panacea/index.html
>
>I just found out today that Anders And & Co. (Nr. 5 - 29. Januar 1998)
>reprints the first part of a story ("No Room for Human Error") that William
>Van Horn and I did several years ago for Disney Comics. The reason I bring
>this up--besides the fact that I've always like this story--is that it's in a
>three-tier format instead of the traditional four-tier that Disney fans in
>Europe or used to.
>
Yes, this story just ran in two issues of the Norwegian 'Donald Duck &
Co.'. I've read it before (in a Gladstone issue, right?), and it's a very
enjoyable story! :)
As far as the panel-layout is concerned, I noticed it was different, but
find this kind of change refreshing. It's always interesting with a bit of
variation; especially in our weekly mag.
-- |Tarjei - Kidd - Olsen|
-- e-mail: (Email removed)
-- Website: http://home.sol.no/~kidd/index.html
-- Panacea: http://home.sol.no/~kjahanse/panacea/index.html
Stefan Diös
Disney comics Digest V98 #45
Message 79 -
1998-02-06 at 03:53:07
DWIGHT about dialogue in later Barks' stories:
> As you
>move into the '60s, he began using then current slang that is now very dated
>("dig that kooky jive!") -- and since he was an older, isolated man with a
>lifelong hearing problem, I'm not sure he ever actually heard people using such
>dialogue in real life but more or less elaborated on things he had seen in
>print. Sometimes I think his later stories are a little painful to read now for
>that reasons, sometimes I think that even though trying to use up-to-the-minute
>slang was a really bad idea, he was at least inventive and playful with it and
>his "kooky jive-talk" is not without its charm.
For me, the snappy dialog is indeed one of the charms, perhaps the biggest
one, in Barks early/mid-60's tales. On the other hand, as a non-American,
it's hard to tell what would seem dated and "painful to read" today. I
remember being laughed at some 15-20 years ago, when I met a young American
who came to visit Sweden. At that time, much of my English reading consisted
of Carl Barks stories, and when I more or less subconsciously incorporated
some of the Ducks' expressions into my conversation, he didn't think I was
for real. I guess he didn't expect to travel to snowy Sweden from Oklahoma,
just to meet a guy his own age who talked American English like some 50's or
60's relic. (Of course, some Shakespeare or Dickens - or Conan Doyle or
Tolkien - might have snuck in, to really make it interesting...)
In my own work, I usually make an effort not to put too much "modern talk"
in the dialogue. My reasoning is that I can't know for sure which of today's
common words or expressions are going to last in the language. Slang is
perfectly OK, but as a rule, I want it either to be well established or
totally new-fabricated "Duckburg style". This is also something that may run
contrary to the ideas of some editors, not to mention marketing people,
who'd want the magazine to look slick and cool and modern in order to
attract young buyers of the 90's. But I want the comics to live as long as
possible. There are people out there who actually save each issue for years
and years. (Can you imagine?!?) Even the next generation should be able to
enjoy the stories.
But again, I may be too conservative. I meet kids who ask me why Donald Duck
says this or that or the other: "Nobody talks like that in real life!" And I
say: "Good! Donald Duck isn't supposed to talk like we do in Sweden! He
talks like they do in Duckburg!" And maybe that kid goes home to cancel his
subscription... What do I know?
For one thing, I don't know how to handle the word "dialog/ue". Is one
spelling supposed to be British and the other American, or what? I'm so
confused, I don't even know which one I use myself. Times are really
tough... huh, bud?
Stefan Dios
Malmo, Sweden
> As you
>move into the '60s, he began using then current slang that is now very dated
>("dig that kooky jive!") -- and since he was an older, isolated man with a
>lifelong hearing problem, I'm not sure he ever actually heard people using such
>dialogue in real life but more or less elaborated on things he had seen in
>print. Sometimes I think his later stories are a little painful to read now for
>that reasons, sometimes I think that even though trying to use up-to-the-minute
>slang was a really bad idea, he was at least inventive and playful with it and
>his "kooky jive-talk" is not without its charm.
For me, the snappy dialog is indeed one of the charms, perhaps the biggest
one, in Barks early/mid-60's tales. On the other hand, as a non-American,
it's hard to tell what would seem dated and "painful to read" today. I
remember being laughed at some 15-20 years ago, when I met a young American
who came to visit Sweden. At that time, much of my English reading consisted
of Carl Barks stories, and when I more or less subconsciously incorporated
some of the Ducks' expressions into my conversation, he didn't think I was
for real. I guess he didn't expect to travel to snowy Sweden from Oklahoma,
just to meet a guy his own age who talked American English like some 50's or
60's relic. (Of course, some Shakespeare or Dickens - or Conan Doyle or
Tolkien - might have snuck in, to really make it interesting...)
In my own work, I usually make an effort not to put too much "modern talk"
in the dialogue. My reasoning is that I can't know for sure which of today's
common words or expressions are going to last in the language. Slang is
perfectly OK, but as a rule, I want it either to be well established or
totally new-fabricated "Duckburg style". This is also something that may run
contrary to the ideas of some editors, not to mention marketing people,
who'd want the magazine to look slick and cool and modern in order to
attract young buyers of the 90's. But I want the comics to live as long as
possible. There are people out there who actually save each issue for years
and years. (Can you imagine?!?) Even the next generation should be able to
enjoy the stories.
But again, I may be too conservative. I meet kids who ask me why Donald Duck
says this or that or the other: "Nobody talks like that in real life!" And I
say: "Good! Donald Duck isn't supposed to talk like we do in Sweden! He
talks like they do in Duckburg!" And maybe that kid goes home to cancel his
subscription... What do I know?
For one thing, I don't know how to handle the word "dialog/ue". Is one
spelling supposed to be British and the other American, or what? I'm so
confused, I don't even know which one I use myself. Times are really
tough... huh, bud?
Stefan Dios
Malmo, Sweden
Mikko Aittola
Barks vs. "management"
Message 80 -
1998-02-06 at 09:59:00
> (Civil Action, File No. 97-377-CO)
SNIP!
> 1. In the sum of $90,000 or such other amount as shall be proven at trial
> on their first cross-claim
>
> 2. For the sum of $84,000 on their second cross-claim
>
> 3. For the sum of $42,035.87 on their third cross-claim;
>
> 4. In an amount to be proven at trial on their fourth cross-claim
>
> 5. For their costs and disbursements incurred herein
>
> 6. For such other relief as may be just and equitable
>
> Dated this 5th day of January 1998
This whole thing smells bad.
I wonder how much money has been transferred between
"management" and Barks *without receipts*. I doubt
Barks handles his own financial stuff.
I smell Swiss bank accounts.
I hope Barks has proper help even if he is guilty.
/Mikko
SNIP!
> 1. In the sum of $90,000 or such other amount as shall be proven at trial
> on their first cross-claim
>
> 2. For the sum of $84,000 on their second cross-claim
>
> 3. For the sum of $42,035.87 on their third cross-claim;
>
> 4. In an amount to be proven at trial on their fourth cross-claim
>
> 5. For their costs and disbursements incurred herein
>
> 6. For such other relief as may be just and equitable
>
> Dated this 5th day of January 1998
This whole thing smells bad.
I wonder how much money has been transferred between
"management" and Barks *without receipts*. I doubt
Barks handles his own financial stuff.
I smell Swiss bank accounts.
I hope Barks has proper help even if he is guilty.
/Mikko
Rich Bellacera
Cousin Bertie & Miss Bovina
Message 81 -
1998-02-06 at 10:19:13
Hello ALL:
I just picked up WDC&S #622 and enjoyed the entire issue
(reprints and new stuff both).
It's nice to see that Gladstone is making a delightful habit
of printing two MM tales in each issue (one new and one
reprint).
DAVID G:
Thank you for the background info in "Bertie Cow" which
compliments the reprinting of "Cousin Bertie" quite nicely.
I hope Gladstone will reprint the second Bertie tales, "Bertie
the Jinx" as well.
DAVID [or anyone who might know]:
Curiosity: Has the mentioned SS "Pluto" tale featuring
"Calfie" (Bertie Cow) ever been reprinted (I would really
like to find a copy of it)?
As for the other character who appears in "Cousin Bertie",
namely Miss Bovina, I'm aware of her other appearances in
WDC&S #15 in "Mickey Gets the Drift", and in it's rather
interesting retelling in "The Twins Quiet Down" from
WDC&S #21, as well as her presence in "Goofy's Hollowe'en"
(a primarily text story from WDC&S #38). I get the
impression that Miss Bovina must have seen more print than
just these four stories.
-Rich (xephyr)
http://www.jps.net/xephyr/rich/disney.html
I just picked up WDC&S #622 and enjoyed the entire issue
(reprints and new stuff both).
It's nice to see that Gladstone is making a delightful habit
of printing two MM tales in each issue (one new and one
reprint).
DAVID G:
Thank you for the background info in "Bertie Cow" which
compliments the reprinting of "Cousin Bertie" quite nicely.
I hope Gladstone will reprint the second Bertie tales, "Bertie
the Jinx" as well.
DAVID [or anyone who might know]:
Curiosity: Has the mentioned SS "Pluto" tale featuring
"Calfie" (Bertie Cow) ever been reprinted (I would really
like to find a copy of it)?
As for the other character who appears in "Cousin Bertie",
namely Miss Bovina, I'm aware of her other appearances in
WDC&S #15 in "Mickey Gets the Drift", and in it's rather
interesting retelling in "The Twins Quiet Down" from
WDC&S #21, as well as her presence in "Goofy's Hollowe'en"
(a primarily text story from WDC&S #38). I get the
impression that Miss Bovina must have seen more print than
just these four stories.
-Rich (xephyr)
http://www.jps.net/xephyr/rich/disney.html
Nisse
Eldorado
Message 82 -
1998-02-06 at 13:34:29
In this week of Anders And - the weekly duck magazine in Denmark - the
new ROSA story ELDORADO is published, for the first time - in Denmark
at least.
And what a story! There is just about everything you need. Adventure,
history and humor mixed in a breathtaking action-story set on two
continents and at the sea. It is allready on my top 10 over the best
ROSA stories ever!
==
ÆÆÆÆ
(o o)
-------oooO---(__)---Oooo---------------------------------
Nisse Kgl.Brand e-mail: (Email removed)
Krenchel Stamholmen 159 or: (Email removed)
2650 Hvidovre
DENMARK
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
new ROSA story ELDORADO is published, for the first time - in Denmark
at least.
And what a story! There is just about everything you need. Adventure,
history and humor mixed in a breathtaking action-story set on two
continents and at the sea. It is allready on my top 10 over the best
ROSA stories ever!
==
ÆÆÆÆ
(o o)
-------oooO---(__)---Oooo---------------------------------
Nisse Kgl.Brand e-mail: (Email removed)
Krenchel Stamholmen 159 or: (Email removed)
2650 Hvidovre
DENMARK
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
Nils Lid Hjort
Lustig & three-tier format
Message 83 -
1998-02-06 at 14:41:07
John Lustig informs us that a Lustig & Van Horn story is out this week in
Scandinavia, and calls attention to the fact that it is in three-tier format.
I haven't seen this story yet (proving that I am an irregular Donald Weekly
buyer). However, regarding the question
<<Also, is this the first time a three-tier format has been printed in the
regular Danish weekly?>>,
it should be pointed out that _some_ Barks stories were drawn and published in
this format. Among these are the "Titanic Ants" and "Water Ski Race" stories
from DD #60 (1958), then ten or so very first ten-pagers in Comics & Stories
(1943 and 1944), and a few of the "Dell Albums" stories. Personally I find that
the three-tier format can have great charm in the hands of a good writer and
artist.
Nils Lid Hjort
Scandinavia, and calls attention to the fact that it is in three-tier format.
I haven't seen this story yet (proving that I am an irregular Donald Weekly
buyer). However, regarding the question
<<Also, is this the first time a three-tier format has been printed in the
regular Danish weekly?>>,
it should be pointed out that _some_ Barks stories were drawn and published in
this format. Among these are the "Titanic Ants" and "Water Ski Race" stories
from DD #60 (1958), then ten or so very first ten-pagers in Comics & Stories
(1943 and 1944), and a few of the "Dell Albums" stories. Personally I find that
the three-tier format can have great charm in the hands of a good writer and
artist.
Nils Lid Hjort
PAULO CEZAR LOPES BARRETO,BARRETO
Daragaje & retranslations
Message 84 -
1998-02-06 at 17:07:36
HARRY:
> In the first Dutch translation (1974) of that story, they named it the
"Daragaje" falls. Daragaje sounds very much like Niagara (when
pronounced the Dutch way), while it also means "Thereyougo"...
The Brazilian "Iguassu" Falls version should have been reprinted
again, but with the ongoing new wave of Barks reprints (new colors,
new translations, new narrow computer lettering and so on), we can't
be sure if the translators will trust readers' awareness about Niagara
Falls (actually, there should be a lot of grown-up people who can
swear that Iguassu Falls disappeared under a dam).
DWIGHT:
> Some Barks stories are showing their age in the original English,
too, and it's
his later stories that are more dated than the earlier ones.
In our local case, I think the responsibility is less from Barks
himself than from the translators. In the early '50s maybe the
translated wording was more colloquial than today, but there's no way
to see *that* text published today -- even though the original Barks
text was more "classic" and timeless. Nevertheless, Brazilian
translators developed a style of their own, so older and newer stories
could be published similarly (and the later Barks stories were
deprived of much of their "modern" language).
At present, I feel like that translation "voice" has been somehow
challenged and the translators are getting greater freedom. But as
long as there are Disney Comics, there will be a need to adapt
translations (Niagara, "top" wages, Mark Twain, Lydia and other cases
discussed here) or at least put a contemporary varnish on the stories.
For instance, what music did the undersea-world jukebox play? In the
latest reprint of this Barks classic, the jukebox played '90s songs --
but no sea-creature seemed to dance them correctly. :-)
WHAT'S UP, TIGER LILY?
I've done similarly with Japanese comics, too... I got a Japanese
magazine, stopped at the funnies and started trying to imagine what
all that stuff was likely to mean. The result was hilarious.
[]s
P.C.Barreto
(Email removed)
> In the first Dutch translation (1974) of that story, they named it the
"Daragaje" falls. Daragaje sounds very much like Niagara (when
pronounced the Dutch way), while it also means "Thereyougo"...
The Brazilian "Iguassu" Falls version should have been reprinted
again, but with the ongoing new wave of Barks reprints (new colors,
new translations, new narrow computer lettering and so on), we can't
be sure if the translators will trust readers' awareness about Niagara
Falls (actually, there should be a lot of grown-up people who can
swear that Iguassu Falls disappeared under a dam).
DWIGHT:
> Some Barks stories are showing their age in the original English,
too, and it's
his later stories that are more dated than the earlier ones.
In our local case, I think the responsibility is less from Barks
himself than from the translators. In the early '50s maybe the
translated wording was more colloquial than today, but there's no way
to see *that* text published today -- even though the original Barks
text was more "classic" and timeless. Nevertheless, Brazilian
translators developed a style of their own, so older and newer stories
could be published similarly (and the later Barks stories were
deprived of much of their "modern" language).
At present, I feel like that translation "voice" has been somehow
challenged and the translators are getting greater freedom. But as
long as there are Disney Comics, there will be a need to adapt
translations (Niagara, "top" wages, Mark Twain, Lydia and other cases
discussed here) or at least put a contemporary varnish on the stories.
For instance, what music did the undersea-world jukebox play? In the
latest reprint of this Barks classic, the jukebox played '90s songs --
but no sea-creature seemed to dance them correctly. :-)
WHAT'S UP, TIGER LILY?
I've done similarly with Japanese comics, too... I got a Japanese
magazine, stopped at the funnies and started trying to imagine what
all that stuff was likely to mean. The result was hilarious.
[]s
P.C.Barreto
(Email removed)
Fluks, H.W.
3-tier pages
Message 85 -
1998-02-06 at 18:05:30
John Lustig asked:
>I'd be curious about reader reaction to the three-tier format?
>Do you like it? Or does it just feel strange?
In Van Horn's case: his early stories were very
un-traditional, and the odd page layout just fitted with
that (and so did Lustig's stories).
In general: to me, 3-tier pages always looked
like a cheap way of filling the pages. You get
less story per page. Of course, the cm2 (or
square inches 8-) of artwork is the same, or
even more, because there are less panels and hence
less white space between the panels!
The 8-panel page has been to me a perfect balance
between story and art. But maybe that's because I've grown
up with that format...
--Harry.
><><><><
>I'd be curious about reader reaction to the three-tier format?
>Do you like it? Or does it just feel strange?
In Van Horn's case: his early stories were very
un-traditional, and the odd page layout just fitted with
that (and so did Lustig's stories).
In general: to me, 3-tier pages always looked
like a cheap way of filling the pages. You get
less story per page. Of course, the cm2 (or
square inches 8-) of artwork is the same, or
even more, because there are less panels and hence
less white space between the panels!
The 8-panel page has been to me a perfect balance
between story and art. But maybe that's because I've grown
up with that format...
--Harry.
><><><><
Soeren Krarup Olesen
Things & other stuff
Message 86 -
1998-02-06 at 20:53:10
The 3-tier pages suit Van Horn perfectly.
He uses very thin lines, that somehow emphasises
details. I'm not much into the Danish weekly, but I bought
it this time, because it had a seperate additional
issue with Rosa's 'Eldorado'.
To me it seems like the Van Horn art (of which I am
not too familiar with) is some kind of "excessed" Barks,
it has not (in contrast to e.g. Rosa) disengaged itself from
traditional Barks, and that's a pity. The Van Horn art may
have the dynamics, that Daniel mentioned a month ago, but
it doesn't seem to come naturally to him (Horn), it's like
suddenly someone (e.g. Donald) establishes a strange face,
but it is rather disturbing - it's not.....hum.....natural.....?!
BTW: According to the dcomics-list, I did not find any
Van Horn art published in Denmark. Is this really the case?
I would like to see more Chierchini in 3-tier pages.
He has the same thin stroke, but I suppose that is all
there could be said in comparing Chierchini to Horn.
S=F8ren
He uses very thin lines, that somehow emphasises
details. I'm not much into the Danish weekly, but I bought
it this time, because it had a seperate additional
issue with Rosa's 'Eldorado'.
To me it seems like the Van Horn art (of which I am
not too familiar with) is some kind of "excessed" Barks,
it has not (in contrast to e.g. Rosa) disengaged itself from
traditional Barks, and that's a pity. The Van Horn art may
have the dynamics, that Daniel mentioned a month ago, but
it doesn't seem to come naturally to him (Horn), it's like
suddenly someone (e.g. Donald) establishes a strange face,
but it is rather disturbing - it's not.....hum.....natural.....?!
BTW: According to the dcomics-list, I did not find any
Van Horn art published in Denmark. Is this really the case?
I would like to see more Chierchini in 3-tier pages.
He has the same thin stroke, but I suppose that is all
there could be said in comparing Chierchini to Horn.
S=F8ren
PAULO CEZAR LOPES BARRETO,BARRETO
Pato Donald #2130
Message 87 -
1998-02-06 at 21:02:36
ALL:
Since there are so many complaints about excessive off-topic
discussions, let us talk *Disney* *Comics* for a while...
- O Festival de Mascotes (no code available) - DD wreaks havoc in
Duckburg's pet pageant with U$'s vicious elephant.
- Entre Tapas e Tortas (D 96098) - DD & Gladstone work in Grandma's
farm (and fight all the way, of course).
- A Fantasia (D 93292) - DD gets a fish costume and has a hard time on
his way to the party.
- Muito Alem do Jardim (D 93478) - Gyro must invent something to make
a young Oriental prince happier.
- Escoteiros por um Dia (D 95201) - HDL as JW go camping with
unsympathetic, spoiled rich kid.
- O Perigo (D 93060) - One-page gag on HDL playing pirates.
- Donald, Pato Certo pro Servico (D 91276) - DD applies for a top (no
spinning-top puns!) job but the application form is hard to reach.
- O Rei da Sorte (no code available) - DD & HDL try to outsmart
Gladstone in the precious-stone (somewhat dirty) business.
As you can see, D-codes are taking over almost the whole scene, while
domestic-produced B-codes are completely absent from "Pato Donald"
title -- they must be concentrating all Brazilian production in "Ze Carioca".
[]s
P.C.Barreto
(Email removed)
Since there are so many complaints about excessive off-topic
discussions, let us talk *Disney* *Comics* for a while...
- O Festival de Mascotes (no code available) - DD wreaks havoc in
Duckburg's pet pageant with U$'s vicious elephant.
- Entre Tapas e Tortas (D 96098) - DD & Gladstone work in Grandma's
farm (and fight all the way, of course).
- A Fantasia (D 93292) - DD gets a fish costume and has a hard time on
his way to the party.
- Muito Alem do Jardim (D 93478) - Gyro must invent something to make
a young Oriental prince happier.
- Escoteiros por um Dia (D 95201) - HDL as JW go camping with
unsympathetic, spoiled rich kid.
- O Perigo (D 93060) - One-page gag on HDL playing pirates.
- Donald, Pato Certo pro Servico (D 91276) - DD applies for a top (no
spinning-top puns!) job but the application form is hard to reach.
- O Rei da Sorte (no code available) - DD & HDL try to outsmart
Gladstone in the precious-stone (somewhat dirty) business.
As you can see, D-codes are taking over almost the whole scene, while
domestic-produced B-codes are completely absent from "Pato Donald"
title -- they must be concentrating all Brazilian production in "Ze Carioca".
[]s
P.C.Barreto
(Email removed)
D Decker
Junkville Journal
Message 88 -
1998-02-07 at 00:16:39
On Feb 5, 5:32pm, Donald D. Markstein wrote:
> All this talk about translations fitting word balloons
> reminds me of when I watched a subtitled version of Wagner's
> Ring Cycle, several years ago. The characters on the stage would
> carry on for ten minutes, back and forth, their faces showing a
> broad range of moods -- and there would be three words at the
> bottom of the screen... Somebody, I concluded, wasn't doing his
> job.
My experience like that was watching a performance of Die Fledermaus on video.
The plot has to do with the lead character's last fling on the night before he
is due to report to prison to start serving a sentence of a couple of weeks for
some trivial offense, and a lot of the banter in German played off the fact
that the verb sitzen -- "to sit" -- also means "to do time" (in jail). The
subtitles utterly failed to get that point across and woodenly translated
sitzen as "sit" every time it came up even though the viewer had to have
realized from the context and the audience's laughter that there was some
larger meaning not getting through.
But on this translation situation we have here...let me first say that as far
as I'm concerned, Bucky Bug is _your_ character, insofar as somebody doing work
for Disney can "own" a character. You've been campaigning on Bucky's behalf for
years now, ever since I've known you as a face and not just a name in a
fanzine, and your efforts to promote the character have been tireless. Writing
Bucky Bug stories obviously gives you great joy. If by some chance I ever get a
Bucky Bug story from Egmont or Gladstone to script, I'll probably be on the
phone to you first thing to work out a subcontracting deal because I couldn't
write the rhymes. Like I said, I consider him your character -- you da bug,
man!
I also recognize that we're dealing with commodities here. Disney owns the
whole shooting match. Editors do what they think is best for the sake of the
product. If rewriting a story produced elsewhere is necessary for the local
market, they have every right, even the duty, to do that. And I agree that a
translation should be transparent: if the translator has done his job, you
shouldn't even know it's a translation. It should read as though it was written
in English to begin with. (Which, sadly, is an ideal not always reached even at
the highest professional levels. I had some trouble getting through the
Whittaker Chambers translation of Bambi because I could sense the original
German behind the English prose all too clearly.) Comics further have the
problem of illustrated puns that don't work in the target language; the
translator may be pretty darn clever in coming up with a substitute, but a
reader might still be left with the nagging impression that the words wouldn't
have been an English-speaking writer's first choice if writing the bit from
scratch. I do agree that the audience in the target language is the most
important thing -- but as a translator, I feel I also have a duty to be
faithful to the original as much as possible. The customers aren't paying to
see _me_; my job is to make the real writer look good.
> I obviously didn't set out to alienate writers, since I
> am one; and I assure you, I didn't set out to alienate
> translators, either. Speaking as a writer, tho, I simply do not
> feel that I am being badly treated by having my words thrown out
> of the balloons, and someone else's put in. I mean -- isn't that
> what a translator DOES?
No. The translator takes the writer's words and changes the language, then puts
them back in. They're still the writer's words. Or should be.
> Now, as for translators (like yourself) feeling that their
> toes are being stepped on -- or, more to the point, that their
> prospects for future employment are damaged -- by the attitude
> that a good script is more important than an exact literal
> translation of the words -- pardon my French, but balderdash!
You're translating what I said in a way I didn't intend. I'm bothered by
throwing out the original writer's script _completely_ and substituting a whole
new story written around the art. That flip remark of yours to the effect that
anybody who cares about the originals should just read them in Dutch seems to
be implying that the Dutch stories were written in some weird language nobody
knows, by anonymous writers nobody ever heard of, so what they wrote doesn't
matter and can be replaced without any qualms. Yet, if it ever came to light
that the Disney licensee in some other country was taking Barks stories,
tossing out the original dialogue, and having local writers come up with
completely new stories based on the art, I doubt if you'd consider that A Good
Thing. The local writers would -- it would be work for them, after all -- and
the editor might argue that he was just doing what he had every right to do to
ensure that the stories fit the market in Farawaystan. I think the rest of us,
though, would look askance at the idea.
> By the way, you have NO IDEA how much EASIER this Bucky
> Bug job would be if I had the original dialog to go by. I sit
> absolutely motionless, for impossibly long times, trying to
> figure out what they could possibly be saying to one another.
> (And by the way, there was one that I just plain would not have
> gotten if Harry Fluks hadn't given me a few clues.)
Well, gee, weren't those stories published somewhere? Isn't the original
dialogue available in printed comics? And don't you know somebody just a few
miles and a local phone call away who can read Dutch, and who would be glad to
offer his consulting services for free just to prevent this kind of thing from
happening?
--Dwight Decker
--------------------------------
End of Disney comics Digest V98 Issue #46
*****************************************
> All this talk about translations fitting word balloons
> reminds me of when I watched a subtitled version of Wagner's
> Ring Cycle, several years ago. The characters on the stage would
> carry on for ten minutes, back and forth, their faces showing a
> broad range of moods -- and there would be three words at the
> bottom of the screen... Somebody, I concluded, wasn't doing his
> job.
My experience like that was watching a performance of Die Fledermaus on video.
The plot has to do with the lead character's last fling on the night before he
is due to report to prison to start serving a sentence of a couple of weeks for
some trivial offense, and a lot of the banter in German played off the fact
that the verb sitzen -- "to sit" -- also means "to do time" (in jail). The
subtitles utterly failed to get that point across and woodenly translated
sitzen as "sit" every time it came up even though the viewer had to have
realized from the context and the audience's laughter that there was some
larger meaning not getting through.
But on this translation situation we have here...let me first say that as far
as I'm concerned, Bucky Bug is _your_ character, insofar as somebody doing work
for Disney can "own" a character. You've been campaigning on Bucky's behalf for
years now, ever since I've known you as a face and not just a name in a
fanzine, and your efforts to promote the character have been tireless. Writing
Bucky Bug stories obviously gives you great joy. If by some chance I ever get a
Bucky Bug story from Egmont or Gladstone to script, I'll probably be on the
phone to you first thing to work out a subcontracting deal because I couldn't
write the rhymes. Like I said, I consider him your character -- you da bug,
man!
I also recognize that we're dealing with commodities here. Disney owns the
whole shooting match. Editors do what they think is best for the sake of the
product. If rewriting a story produced elsewhere is necessary for the local
market, they have every right, even the duty, to do that. And I agree that a
translation should be transparent: if the translator has done his job, you
shouldn't even know it's a translation. It should read as though it was written
in English to begin with. (Which, sadly, is an ideal not always reached even at
the highest professional levels. I had some trouble getting through the
Whittaker Chambers translation of Bambi because I could sense the original
German behind the English prose all too clearly.) Comics further have the
problem of illustrated puns that don't work in the target language; the
translator may be pretty darn clever in coming up with a substitute, but a
reader might still be left with the nagging impression that the words wouldn't
have been an English-speaking writer's first choice if writing the bit from
scratch. I do agree that the audience in the target language is the most
important thing -- but as a translator, I feel I also have a duty to be
faithful to the original as much as possible. The customers aren't paying to
see _me_; my job is to make the real writer look good.
> I obviously didn't set out to alienate writers, since I
> am one; and I assure you, I didn't set out to alienate
> translators, either. Speaking as a writer, tho, I simply do not
> feel that I am being badly treated by having my words thrown out
> of the balloons, and someone else's put in. I mean -- isn't that
> what a translator DOES?
No. The translator takes the writer's words and changes the language, then puts
them back in. They're still the writer's words. Or should be.
> Now, as for translators (like yourself) feeling that their
> toes are being stepped on -- or, more to the point, that their
> prospects for future employment are damaged -- by the attitude
> that a good script is more important than an exact literal
> translation of the words -- pardon my French, but balderdash!
You're translating what I said in a way I didn't intend. I'm bothered by
throwing out the original writer's script _completely_ and substituting a whole
new story written around the art. That flip remark of yours to the effect that
anybody who cares about the originals should just read them in Dutch seems to
be implying that the Dutch stories were written in some weird language nobody
knows, by anonymous writers nobody ever heard of, so what they wrote doesn't
matter and can be replaced without any qualms. Yet, if it ever came to light
that the Disney licensee in some other country was taking Barks stories,
tossing out the original dialogue, and having local writers come up with
completely new stories based on the art, I doubt if you'd consider that A Good
Thing. The local writers would -- it would be work for them, after all -- and
the editor might argue that he was just doing what he had every right to do to
ensure that the stories fit the market in Farawaystan. I think the rest of us,
though, would look askance at the idea.
> By the way, you have NO IDEA how much EASIER this Bucky
> Bug job would be if I had the original dialog to go by. I sit
> absolutely motionless, for impossibly long times, trying to
> figure out what they could possibly be saying to one another.
> (And by the way, there was one that I just plain would not have
> gotten if Harry Fluks hadn't given me a few clues.)
Well, gee, weren't those stories published somewhere? Isn't the original
dialogue available in printed comics? And don't you know somebody just a few
miles and a local phone call away who can read Dutch, and who would be glad to
offer his consulting services for free just to prevent this kind of thing from
happening?
--Dwight Decker
--------------------------------
End of Disney comics Digest V98 Issue #46
*****************************************
Tarjei Kidd Olsen
Disney comics Digest V98 #46
Message 89 -
1998-02-07 at 00:31:04
Don R. said:
>Hoo-hoo-hoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!
Hmm, has Don gone insane(r)? :) ;-))
-- |Tarjei - Kidd - Olsen|
-- e-mail: (Email removed)
-- Website: http://home.sol.no/~kidd/index.html
-- Panacea: http://home.sol.no/~kjahanse/panacea/index.html
>Hoo-hoo-hoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!
Hmm, has Don gone insane(r)? :) ;-))
-- |Tarjei - Kidd - Olsen|
-- e-mail: (Email removed)
-- Website: http://home.sol.no/~kidd/index.html
-- Panacea: http://home.sol.no/~kjahanse/panacea/index.html
Ota
Brazilian Disney Comics Killed
Message 90 -
1998-02-07 at 01:31:45
Barreto said:
>As you can see, D-codes are taking over almost the whole scene, while
domestic-produced B-codes are completely absent from "Pato Donald"
title -- they must be concentrating all Brazilian production in "Ze
Carioca".
Sad news, folks.
Wait a few issues more and you'll see the Brazilian production will
disappear almost completely . Editora Abril killed its Brazilian Comics
production line. They fired more or less 80 staffers and free-lancers
that created the stories or worked at the office. It seems that they
will use reprints or foreign material to fill the books. The stories
that are being published currently are from the stock -- and it's
getting thinner..
No title has been cancelled so far -- but regular readers can note that
the current Editora Abril Disney line has less titles than some years
ago. Abril hold on the traditional comic books - Pato Donald, Mickey,
Tio Patinhas, Ze Carioca and Almanaque Disney and the reprint anthology
books. They're still offering subscriptions, so most probable is that
there will be no cancellaction in a near future.
The mass-firing is an attempt to cut costs. Editora Abril is not
financially healthy presently, because they're investing heavily in
satellite-TV. By the way they have the exclusivity rights to the Disney
Channel.
Ota
(Email removed)
>As you can see, D-codes are taking over almost the whole scene, while
domestic-produced B-codes are completely absent from "Pato Donald"
title -- they must be concentrating all Brazilian production in "Ze
Carioca".
Sad news, folks.
Wait a few issues more and you'll see the Brazilian production will
disappear almost completely . Editora Abril killed its Brazilian Comics
production line. They fired more or less 80 staffers and free-lancers
that created the stories or worked at the office. It seems that they
will use reprints or foreign material to fill the books. The stories
that are being published currently are from the stock -- and it's
getting thinner..
No title has been cancelled so far -- but regular readers can note that
the current Editora Abril Disney line has less titles than some years
ago. Abril hold on the traditional comic books - Pato Donald, Mickey,
Tio Patinhas, Ze Carioca and Almanaque Disney and the reprint anthology
books. They're still offering subscriptions, so most probable is that
there will be no cancellaction in a near future.
The mass-firing is an attempt to cut costs. Editora Abril is not
financially healthy presently, because they're investing heavily in
satellite-TV. By the way they have the exclusivity rights to the Disney
Channel.
Ota
(Email removed)