> Well, in America Disney Comics are sold in just a few thousands - in
> Scandinavia it's sold in hundreds of thousands - thus I have a bigger
trust
> in the Disney-reading Scandinavian general public in this matter than in
the
> non-Disney-reading general American public - but that's just my personal
> opinion.
Once again, you are putting words into other people's mouths. It is the
general public in America, and not the DISNEY-READING general public, that
knows the work of Walt Kelly. I will also wager that he is better known to
the general public in Europe, than Barks is to the general public in
America. ALL OVER THE WORLD, Walt Kelly is respected by those who know
comics, and his name is at least recognized by many who don't.
To dismiss him as a nobody, as you OFTEN do those not favored within your
extremely narrow world-view, is pure ignorance.
Quack, Don
Today in Toons: Every day's an anniversary.
http://www.toonopedia.com/today.htm
Author
Topic: 200307
(351 messages)
Donald D. Markstein
Walt Kelly
Message 196 -
2003-07-13 at 17:11:32
Sigvald Grøsfjeld Jr.
Don Rosa vs Kurt Nilssen
Message 197 -
2003-07-13 at 17:21:35
Hi all!
Yesterday our friend Olaf Solstrand compared Don Rosa with the new Norwegian
music artist Kurt Nilssen (at least this is how Olaf's statement could be
interpreted).
I disagree with that. While Kurt Nilssen AFAIK owe all of his popularity to
the media who has given him more than his share of spotlight, Don Rosa owe
his popularity to hard work and thus great stories based upon respect for
Barks.
Or to put it short: media made Kurt Nilssens work known, while Don Rosa's
work has made Don Rosa known.
Sigvald
Yesterday our friend Olaf Solstrand compared Don Rosa with the new Norwegian
music artist Kurt Nilssen (at least this is how Olaf's statement could be
interpreted).
I disagree with that. While Kurt Nilssen AFAIK owe all of his popularity to
the media who has given him more than his share of spotlight, Don Rosa owe
his popularity to hard work and thus great stories based upon respect for
Barks.
Or to put it short: media made Kurt Nilssens work known, while Don Rosa's
work has made Don Rosa known.
Sigvald
Daniel Van Eijmeren
Censorship in Majarajah Donald
Message 198 -
2003-07-13 at 17:23:12
Today, I replied to LARRY GIVER, about the censorship in the recent
FCBD Gemstone publication of "Maharajah Donald" (MOC 4):
> What is wrong about mentioning Burbank?
> Why did that need to be censored?
On second thought, maybe I misunderstood Larry's comments.
I thought his reference to Burbank referred to the censoring.
After re-reading his email, it only seems to be an independent note
about Barks using Burbank in his stories.
--- Dani?l
FCBD Gemstone publication of "Maharajah Donald" (MOC 4):
> What is wrong about mentioning Burbank?
> Why did that need to be censored?
On second thought, maybe I misunderstood Larry's comments.
I thought his reference to Burbank referred to the censoring.
After re-reading his email, it only seems to be an independent note
about Barks using Burbank in his stories.
--- Dani?l
SRoweCanoe
Walt Kelly
Message 199 -
2003-07-13 at 17:33:32
In a message dated 7/13/2003 10:16:26 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
ddmarkstein at cox.net writes:
> Once again, you are putting words into other people's mouths. It is the
> general public in America, and not the DISNEY-READING general public, that
> knows the work of Walt Kelly. I will also wager that he is better known to
> the general public in Europe, than Barks is to the general public in
> America. ALL OVER THE WORLD, Walt Kelly is respected by those who know
> comics, and his name is at least recognized by many who don't.
>
Frankly, that is a safe wager (or even a suckers bet)
Walt Kelly was a celebrity cartoonist in the 1950s-1960s, where
his books were best sellers (not his comic books , but his books) -- If i hadnt
loaned out my book on bestsellers - i would check and see if they actually
made the New York Times bestsellers list as my memory indicates.,..
He is regularly quoted in the newspapers even today
(and is in Barlett's book of quotations, which is the standard refrence book
on famous sayings)
For someone to state that kelly is little known just shows extreme
lack of comics knowledge.
steven rowe
ddmarkstein at cox.net writes:
> Once again, you are putting words into other people's mouths. It is the
> general public in America, and not the DISNEY-READING general public, that
> knows the work of Walt Kelly. I will also wager that he is better known to
> the general public in Europe, than Barks is to the general public in
> America. ALL OVER THE WORLD, Walt Kelly is respected by those who know
> comics, and his name is at least recognized by many who don't.
>
Frankly, that is a safe wager (or even a suckers bet)
Walt Kelly was a celebrity cartoonist in the 1950s-1960s, where
his books were best sellers (not his comic books , but his books) -- If i hadnt
loaned out my book on bestsellers - i would check and see if they actually
made the New York Times bestsellers list as my memory indicates.,..
He is regularly quoted in the newspapers even today
(and is in Barlett's book of quotations, which is the standard refrence book
on famous sayings)
For someone to state that kelly is little known just shows extreme
lack of comics knowledge.
steven rowe
Sigvald Grøsfjeld Jr.
I go lurking again!
Message 200 -
2003-07-13 at 17:40:26
Hi all!
As I told you yesterday, I am going into lurk-modus again. This time I will
try even harder to avoid un-lurking in the lurk-modus period. This time I
will stay in lurk-modus until I am back from my trip to Denmark ? that means
Saturday August 2nd. Besides my respect for Don Rosa and his very clear hint
about go lurking again, I also do this in order to talk to my Danish friends
about the apparent communication-problems between me and many DCMLers
recently.
Have a nice summer!
Sigvald
As I told you yesterday, I am going into lurk-modus again. This time I will
try even harder to avoid un-lurking in the lurk-modus period. This time I
will stay in lurk-modus until I am back from my trip to Denmark ? that means
Saturday August 2nd. Besides my respect for Don Rosa and his very clear hint
about go lurking again, I also do this in order to talk to my Danish friends
about the apparent communication-problems between me and many DCMLers
recently.
Have a nice summer!
Sigvald
Cord Wiljes
AW: Walt Kelly
Message 201 -
2003-07-13 at 17:47:01
Steven Rowe wrote:
> Hard to believe that some folks on this list (or is it just one
folk?)
> believe that "Walt Kelly" is an unimportant artist. In the USA, Kelly
> is generally considered one of the greatest comic strip artists of the
> 20th Century ---
In our (German) list of the best comics Walt Kelly is on place 35 (of
100):
http://www.top100comics.de/single_book.php?rank=35
On the list the readers voted Kelly is only on place 450 (of 700):
http://www.top100comics.de/comicvoting_centum.php
To this readers' list not only Germans but many international visitors
(expecially from the U.S.) contributed, so I suppose it can be called
international (with the exception of Asia).
IMO Kelly can and should be recognized as one of the giants of the
field. But today he is no longer popular with the general public.
But then how could he? The Fantagraphics edition is out of print and
foreign editions of his works are scarce probably because his humor is
difficult to translate. Only very few of his strips have been printed
here in Germany.
Cord
> Hard to believe that some folks on this list (or is it just one
folk?)
> believe that "Walt Kelly" is an unimportant artist. In the USA, Kelly
> is generally considered one of the greatest comic strip artists of the
> 20th Century ---
In our (German) list of the best comics Walt Kelly is on place 35 (of
100):
http://www.top100comics.de/single_book.php?rank=35
On the list the readers voted Kelly is only on place 450 (of 700):
http://www.top100comics.de/comicvoting_centum.php
To this readers' list not only Germans but many international visitors
(expecially from the U.S.) contributed, so I suppose it can be called
international (with the exception of Asia).
IMO Kelly can and should be recognized as one of the giants of the
field. But today he is no longer popular with the general public.
But then how could he? The Fantagraphics edition is out of print and
foreign editions of his works are scarce probably because his humor is
difficult to translate. Only very few of his strips have been printed
here in Germany.
Cord
Cord Wiljes
AW: Walt Kelly
Message 202 -
2003-07-13 at 18:03:53
Donald D. Markstein wrote:
> I will also wager that he (sc. Walt Kelly) is better known to
> the general public in Europe, than Barks is to the general public in
> America. ALL OVER THE WORLD, Walt Kelly is respected by those who know
> comics, and his name is at least recognized by many who don't.
Just speaking for Germany, I suppose that roughly 0,05% (40.000 of 80
million inhabitants) do know who Walt Kelly was.
Going to a comics convention you will probably meet a better ration of
about
5%.
This reminds me of a joke drawn by Frank Miller ("Batman: The Dark
Knight returns"):
We see the author/artist himself in a crowded public place where he
proclaims: "I am Frank Miller the Comic book artist!" People just ignore
him because nobody knows him. In the end he desperately shouts: "I wrote
the first draft for Robocop II" ;-)
Cord
> I will also wager that he (sc. Walt Kelly) is better known to
> the general public in Europe, than Barks is to the general public in
> America. ALL OVER THE WORLD, Walt Kelly is respected by those who know
> comics, and his name is at least recognized by many who don't.
Just speaking for Germany, I suppose that roughly 0,05% (40.000 of 80
million inhabitants) do know who Walt Kelly was.
Going to a comics convention you will probably meet a better ration of
about
5%.
This reminds me of a joke drawn by Frank Miller ("Batman: The Dark
Knight returns"):
We see the author/artist himself in a crowded public place where he
proclaims: "I am Frank Miller the Comic book artist!" People just ignore
him because nobody knows him. In the end he desperately shouts: "I wrote
the first draft for Robocop II" ;-)
Cord
SRoweCanoe
AW: Walt Kelly
Message 203 -
2003-07-13 at 18:13:29
In a message dated 7/13/2003 10:49:08 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
cord at wiljes.de writes:
> IMO Kelly can and should be recognized as one of the giants of the field.
> But today he is no longer popular with the general public.
>
of course,
here in the USA when you are dead your popularity plumets...(with a handful
of exceptions in the perfoming arts - the usa audience only likes modern
things)
and Kelly has been dead for several decades - and he didnt do tons of
liscencing work to keep his characthers alive....
this still doesnt dimish his enormous popularity then, and the
still there fanbase he has
> But then how could he? The Fantagraphics edition is out of print and
> foreign editions of his works are scarce probably because his humor is difficult to
> translate. Only very few of his strips have been printed here in Germany.
>
even worse: the Simon and Shuster books are all out of print --
(and some of the Fantagraphics books may still be in print)
the Fantagraphics were just small potatoes in terms of sales and more
importantly distribution through book stores. Its possible that the number
of S&S books available used is all the market can bear ....thus making it
unlikely for new reprints of those books
on the other hand, his record album is back in print and available -
through Amazon and the other usual outlets
Hey Don Rosa, can we expect a musical CD from you???
steven rowe
cord at wiljes.de writes:
> IMO Kelly can and should be recognized as one of the giants of the field.
> But today he is no longer popular with the general public.
>
of course,
here in the USA when you are dead your popularity plumets...(with a handful
of exceptions in the perfoming arts - the usa audience only likes modern
things)
and Kelly has been dead for several decades - and he didnt do tons of
liscencing work to keep his characthers alive....
this still doesnt dimish his enormous popularity then, and the
still there fanbase he has
> But then how could he? The Fantagraphics edition is out of print and
> foreign editions of his works are scarce probably because his humor is difficult to
> translate. Only very few of his strips have been printed here in Germany.
>
even worse: the Simon and Shuster books are all out of print --
(and some of the Fantagraphics books may still be in print)
the Fantagraphics were just small potatoes in terms of sales and more
importantly distribution through book stores. Its possible that the number
of S&S books available used is all the market can bear ....thus making it
unlikely for new reprints of those books
on the other hand, his record album is back in print and available -
through Amazon and the other usual outlets
Hey Don Rosa, can we expect a musical CD from you???
steven rowe
Klartekst
Walt Kelly
Message 204 -
2003-07-13 at 18:16:57
For anyone not familiar with Walt Kelly, I recommend the Fantagraphics
collections of the Pogo newpaper strips, available in comic book stores.
Apart from the beautiful, detailed art (as compared with the minimalistic
'Dilbert'-type drawing styles we see today), what I like best about these stories
is the total absence of any sensible or predictable plot lines. To quote from
the dust jacket of one of the books: "What begins with a sort of wholesale
courtship of a skunk turns into a brief panic about sea serpents that becomes
a migration West that subjects everyone momentarily to the ministrations of the
resident con man that results, finally, in a cow taking work as a cat."
It doesn't always make a lot of sense, but it's great fun - much like
life itself.
Nils from Norway
collections of the Pogo newpaper strips, available in comic book stores.
Apart from the beautiful, detailed art (as compared with the minimalistic
'Dilbert'-type drawing styles we see today), what I like best about these stories
is the total absence of any sensible or predictable plot lines. To quote from
the dust jacket of one of the books: "What begins with a sort of wholesale
courtship of a skunk turns into a brief panic about sea serpents that becomes
a migration West that subjects everyone momentarily to the ministrations of the
resident con man that results, finally, in a cow taking work as a cat."
It doesn't always make a lot of sense, but it's great fun - much like
life itself.
Nils from Norway
SRoweCanoe
AW: Walt Kelly
Message 205 -
2003-07-13 at 18:17:53
In a message dated 7/13/2003 11:05:28 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
cord at wiljes.de writes:
> Just speaking for Germany, I suppose that roughly 0,05% (40.000 of 80
> million inhabitants) do know who Walt Kelly was.
>
no offense, but any of us can make up satistics
your argument however is that Kelly is not well known there to the
general public because his work was not mass-marketed there - is likely (if his
work was indeed not mass-marketed there). I know he appeared in Italy in
LINUS.
almost nobody in the usa knows who Herge is either
this doesnt lessen his importance
steven rowe
cord at wiljes.de writes:
> Just speaking for Germany, I suppose that roughly 0,05% (40.000 of 80
> million inhabitants) do know who Walt Kelly was.
>
no offense, but any of us can make up satistics
your argument however is that Kelly is not well known there to the
general public because his work was not mass-marketed there - is likely (if his
work was indeed not mass-marketed there). I know he appeared in Italy in
LINUS.
almost nobody in the usa knows who Herge is either
this doesnt lessen his importance
steven rowe
Cord Wiljes
AW: AW: Walt Kelly
Message 206 -
2003-07-13 at 18:53:51
Cord wrote:
>> Just speaking for Germany, I suppose that roughly 0,05% (40.000 of 80
>> million inhabitants) do know who Walt Kelly was.
Steven Rowe wrote:
> no offense, but any of us can make up satistics
I agree. So instead of pinning a number to it I will just say: Nearly
nobody here in Germany does know who Walt Kelly was. This is not to say
anything about the quality or importance of his work but just an
observation.
> almost nobody in the usa knows who Herge is either this doesnt lessen
his importance
Popularity has never been a reliable measure for quality. And vice
versa.
Speaking of comics creators known to the general public: Recently I saw
a game show on TV where they asked "Who was the father of the
"Marsupilami"?". The answer was worth 250.000 EUR - so they must have
considered it difficult.
Cord
>> Just speaking for Germany, I suppose that roughly 0,05% (40.000 of 80
>> million inhabitants) do know who Walt Kelly was.
Steven Rowe wrote:
> no offense, but any of us can make up satistics
I agree. So instead of pinning a number to it I will just say: Nearly
nobody here in Germany does know who Walt Kelly was. This is not to say
anything about the quality or importance of his work but just an
observation.
> almost nobody in the usa knows who Herge is either this doesnt lessen
his importance
Popularity has never been a reliable measure for quality. And vice
versa.
Speaking of comics creators known to the general public: Recently I saw
a game show on TV where they asked "Who was the father of the
"Marsupilami"?". The answer was worth 250.000 EUR - so they must have
considered it difficult.
Cord
Olaf Solstrand
Don Rosa vs Kurt Nilssen
Message 207 -
2003-07-13 at 19:25:25
As an answer to our lurking friend:
> Yesterday our friend Olaf Solstrand compared Don Rosa with
> the new Norwegian music artist Kurt Nilssen (at least this is how
> Olaf's statement could be interpreted).
Well, yes, that's how my statement COULD be interpreted, but that was not
what I meant. So, let me try to explain what I actually meant. (in a way
that does not need an answer so that Sigvald wouldn't have to go de-lurking
again...)
I was just trying to state the difference between importance and popularity.
So, I went to the extreme and picked an example that I hoped you [Sigvald]
would understand. Kurt Nilssen has been mile high on both the Norwegian most
sold albums-list and most sold singles-list for weeks. He's played on the
radio almost continously (especially on "hit" stations). Booking a concert
with Kurt and the others from "Idol" costs 40.000$. Many people, especially
young teens (I would have used the word "fjortis" if it was in my
dictionary), meet up and praise this artist like The Beatles was in the
1960's and Elvis Presley was in the 1950's. (Thus perhaps not THAT many.)
Is Kurt Nilssen a popular music artist? Of course he is.
Is Kurt Nilssen an important music artist? Not at all!
But I'm not trying to compare Don Rosa to Kurt Nilssen. Please - I have more
respect for Don Rosa than that. All I'm saying is that YOU CAN'T DRAW A
PARALLEL BETWEEN POPULARITY AND IMPORTANCE.
I realize that I _could_ have used an example everybody would understand -
e.g. Britney Spears or the Spice Girls. Which are WORSE, as they don't even
write their own music.
I hope my point is taken.
____________________________________
Olaf Solstrand
going lurking for the next one and a half hour...
> Yesterday our friend Olaf Solstrand compared Don Rosa with
> the new Norwegian music artist Kurt Nilssen (at least this is how
> Olaf's statement could be interpreted).
Well, yes, that's how my statement COULD be interpreted, but that was not
what I meant. So, let me try to explain what I actually meant. (in a way
that does not need an answer so that Sigvald wouldn't have to go de-lurking
again...)
I was just trying to state the difference between importance and popularity.
So, I went to the extreme and picked an example that I hoped you [Sigvald]
would understand. Kurt Nilssen has been mile high on both the Norwegian most
sold albums-list and most sold singles-list for weeks. He's played on the
radio almost continously (especially on "hit" stations). Booking a concert
with Kurt and the others from "Idol" costs 40.000$. Many people, especially
young teens (I would have used the word "fjortis" if it was in my
dictionary), meet up and praise this artist like The Beatles was in the
1960's and Elvis Presley was in the 1950's. (Thus perhaps not THAT many.)
Is Kurt Nilssen a popular music artist? Of course he is.
Is Kurt Nilssen an important music artist? Not at all!
But I'm not trying to compare Don Rosa to Kurt Nilssen. Please - I have more
respect for Don Rosa than that. All I'm saying is that YOU CAN'T DRAW A
PARALLEL BETWEEN POPULARITY AND IMPORTANCE.
I realize that I _could_ have used an example everybody would understand -
e.g. Britney Spears or the Spice Girls. Which are WORSE, as they don't even
write their own music.
I hope my point is taken.
____________________________________
Olaf Solstrand
going lurking for the next one and a half hour...
Lgiver
Another Barks - Burbank quote
Message 208 -
2003-07-13 at 20:01:56
Daniel is correct; "Donald Duck's Worst Nightmare" C&S #101,
has Donald begging the pirates to let him go back to Burbank,
in a nightmare, page 3 panel 8.
The Burbank reference in Maharajah Donald is still in the
recent Gemstone FCBD reprint, as Daniel concluded in his second
post. Gary Leach challenged us to find a change that was made
in the Gemstone reprint compared to the Gladstone reprints,
but Harry Fluks couldn't find it, and nither could I.
Here's another Barks - Burbank quote:
"Howdy, Bud! I'm from the South, myself -- south Burbank!"
Which story is this one from?
Best wishes, Larry Giver.
has Donald begging the pirates to let him go back to Burbank,
in a nightmare, page 3 panel 8.
The Burbank reference in Maharajah Donald is still in the
recent Gemstone FCBD reprint, as Daniel concluded in his second
post. Gary Leach challenged us to find a change that was made
in the Gemstone reprint compared to the Gladstone reprints,
but Harry Fluks couldn't find it, and nither could I.
Here's another Barks - Burbank quote:
"Howdy, Bud! I'm from the South, myself -- south Burbank!"
Which story is this one from?
Best wishes, Larry Giver.
Geir J. Netland
About hard core Rosa-fans
Message 209 -
2003-07-13 at 20:15:14
Sigvald wrote:
>Great news! But why do they announce "On Stolen Time" in issue 28 in
>stead of this story >that has previously not seen print in Scandinavia?
Hard core fans like me, Geir J.
>Netland and others find that much more interesting than seeing "On
Stolen Time" once
>more.
> Sorry, Olaf, but Geir being a hard core Rosa-fan and
> Rosa-completist is practically a fact...
Who is this Geir?
How come *he* became a subject here? FYI, *this* is his first
dcml-posting in months. If he feels the need to state his opinion, he
will do so! BTW, If "hard core Rosa-fan" means being like you, Sigvald,
then he is *not* one. Happy lurking!
-----------------------------
Vennlig hilsen/Greetings from
Geir J. Netland
-----------------------------
>Great news! But why do they announce "On Stolen Time" in issue 28 in
>stead of this story >that has previously not seen print in Scandinavia?
Hard core fans like me, Geir J.
>Netland and others find that much more interesting than seeing "On
Stolen Time" once
>more.
> Sorry, Olaf, but Geir being a hard core Rosa-fan and
> Rosa-completist is practically a fact...
Who is this Geir?
How come *he* became a subject here? FYI, *this* is his first
dcml-posting in months. If he feels the need to state his opinion, he
will do so! BTW, If "hard core Rosa-fan" means being like you, Sigvald,
then he is *not* one. Happy lurking!
-----------------------------
Vennlig hilsen/Greetings from
Geir J. Netland
-----------------------------
Olivier
Walt Kelly / Larry's Burbank quote (PS)
Message 210 -
2003-07-13 at 21:19:42
Steven:
>>>In the USA, Kelly is generally considered one of the greatest comic strip artists of the 20th Century ---
>>> -- certainly his name recognition factor among the general public is well above Barks or Rosa ---
>>> sure is odd how things are different.... there is even an annual festival held about Kelly.
And "Pogo President" campaigns too ("I go Pogo").
A very touching hommage to Pogo in Alan Moore's take on "The Swamp Thing" has already been noted. Could make for a cute li'l gag in a duck story set in the Okefenokee.
>>>on the other hand, his record album is back in print and available - through Amazon and the other usual outlets
I saw that recently as I checked again for available Pogo books.
Nils:
>>>what I like best about these stories
>>>is the total absence of any sensible or predictable plot lines.
Incredible. He jumped and skipped and hopped from one idea to another in less than an eyeblink, bouncing on distorted or mispronounced words, introducing wacky characters and situations in utterly unexpected ways, without it being chaotic at all; it just flowed perfectly smoothly and naturally-- quite an achievement.
I've scanned two favorites of mine and uploaded them for your pleasure:
http://bobcat74.free.fr/kelly/
All the best to all of you,
Olivier
***** PS: Larry's quote
Larry:
>>>"Howdy, Bud! I'm from the South, myself -- south Burbank!"
DDA 223, "Lost in the Andes".
Surely one of Barks' best lines.
Gum anyone?
>>>In the USA, Kelly is generally considered one of the greatest comic strip artists of the 20th Century ---
>>> -- certainly his name recognition factor among the general public is well above Barks or Rosa ---
>>> sure is odd how things are different.... there is even an annual festival held about Kelly.
And "Pogo President" campaigns too ("I go Pogo").
A very touching hommage to Pogo in Alan Moore's take on "The Swamp Thing" has already been noted. Could make for a cute li'l gag in a duck story set in the Okefenokee.
>>>on the other hand, his record album is back in print and available - through Amazon and the other usual outlets
I saw that recently as I checked again for available Pogo books.
Nils:
>>>what I like best about these stories
>>>is the total absence of any sensible or predictable plot lines.
Incredible. He jumped and skipped and hopped from one idea to another in less than an eyeblink, bouncing on distorted or mispronounced words, introducing wacky characters and situations in utterly unexpected ways, without it being chaotic at all; it just flowed perfectly smoothly and naturally-- quite an achievement.
I've scanned two favorites of mine and uploaded them for your pleasure:
http://bobcat74.free.fr/kelly/
All the best to all of you,
Olivier
***** PS: Larry's quote
Larry:
>>>"Howdy, Bud! I'm from the South, myself -- south Burbank!"
DDA 223, "Lost in the Andes".
Surely one of Barks' best lines.
Gum anyone?