Hi all!
This date - February 20th 2003 - my
"The D.U.C.K.man" WEB-site has reached it's
first anniversary! I have thus added a special
surprise section - take a look at:
http://duckman.pettho.com/
Sigvald :-)
Author
Topic: 200302
(428 messages)
Sigvald Grøsfjeld Jr.
Anniversary day!
Message 301 -
2003-02-20 at 05:50:55
Sigvald Grøsfjeld Jr.
About AC's trip to Norway
Message 302 -
2003-02-20 at 06:09:21
Dan Rosenberg wrote:
>To Sigvald and Anders,
>
>Are you guys sure you were on the same trip
>together?
Sure! - Anders was on a trip - I was his host!
> I have to say, Sigvald, I think you're
> being a little obsessive about meaningless
> details.
Oh sorry, but there is IMO a good reason for
that, ACs reports here are also important
sources, and our future references about
this meeting of ours. Seen in this light my
minor corrections should make complete sense!
> For one thing, the word "marine" can be used
> in English and The Marines and The Navy are
> two different entities (at least in the US,
> an English-speaking country.
Ecsactly! I served in the Norwegian Navy, but
at a deposit, I was not one of the marines
(special trained naval soldiers).
> Furthermore, the words "slicer" and "cutter"
> are virtually interchangeable when preceded
> by the word "cheese". A cheese-cutter and a
> cheese-slicer serve the exact same purpose:
> the slow, deliberate destruction of delicious
> cheese for consumption.
Correct, but the cheese slicer is much more
typical Norwegan. By using the correct word
the whole sentence makes much more sence as
it would apear to be a Norwegian souvenir
- not only another nice kitchen tool.
Anyway - I hope that AC hasn't misunderstood
anything of this - I have meant no harm with
my corrections!
Sigvald :-)
>To Sigvald and Anders,
>
>Are you guys sure you were on the same trip
>together?
Sure! - Anders was on a trip - I was his host!
> I have to say, Sigvald, I think you're
> being a little obsessive about meaningless
> details.
Oh sorry, but there is IMO a good reason for
that, ACs reports here are also important
sources, and our future references about
this meeting of ours. Seen in this light my
minor corrections should make complete sense!
> For one thing, the word "marine" can be used
> in English and The Marines and The Navy are
> two different entities (at least in the US,
> an English-speaking country.
Ecsactly! I served in the Norwegian Navy, but
at a deposit, I was not one of the marines
(special trained naval soldiers).
> Furthermore, the words "slicer" and "cutter"
> are virtually interchangeable when preceded
> by the word "cheese". A cheese-cutter and a
> cheese-slicer serve the exact same purpose:
> the slow, deliberate destruction of delicious
> cheese for consumption.
Correct, but the cheese slicer is much more
typical Norwegan. By using the correct word
the whole sentence makes much more sence as
it would apear to be a Norwegian souvenir
- not only another nice kitchen tool.
Anyway - I hope that AC hasn't misunderstood
anything of this - I have meant no harm with
my corrections!
Sigvald :-)
Kai Saarto
Anniversary day!
Message 303 -
2003-02-20 at 10:17:35
Sigvald Gr?sfjeld jr. wrote:
> Hi all!
>
> This date - February 20th 2003 - my
> "The D.U.C.K.man" WEB-site has reached it's
> first anniversary! I have thus added a special
> surprise section - take a look at:
> http://duckman.pettho.com/
Congratulations Sigvald! I?ve always enjoyed your site.
The suprise-link from the main page is broken though. One "/" is
accidentally turned itself to "\" - I think it might have been
celebrating a bit too much... :)
Direct link for surprise page until Sigvald fixes it:
http://duckman.pettho.com/celebration/anniversary.html
--
- Kai Saarto
http://www.perunamaa.net/donrosa
> Hi all!
>
> This date - February 20th 2003 - my
> "The D.U.C.K.man" WEB-site has reached it's
> first anniversary! I have thus added a special
> surprise section - take a look at:
> http://duckman.pettho.com/
Congratulations Sigvald! I?ve always enjoyed your site.
The suprise-link from the main page is broken though. One "/" is
accidentally turned itself to "\" - I think it might have been
celebrating a bit too much... :)
Direct link for surprise page until Sigvald fixes it:
http://duckman.pettho.com/celebration/anniversary.html
--
- Kai Saarto
http://www.perunamaa.net/donrosa
Theresa Wiegert
AW: color of sun
Message 304 -
2003-02-20 at 10:51:30
> Theresa Wiegert:
> >> Actually, the sun *is* yellow! It's classified as a G-star
Cord:
> So if we make a spectral analysis of the sun it emits a little more
> electromagnetic radiation of wavelengths corresponding to yellow
> than of the other wavelengths. Is this visible with human eyes?
> Probably only from far away, let's say from Alpha Centauri.
Ah, nono. Of course you can't look directly into the sun when it's
daylight, it's far too bright (and you shouldn't!), but it's not white.
YellowISH, I should say. And it's the same yellow tone of light as when
you look at stars from far away. betelgeuse is red, Rigel is blue, Alpha
Centauri is yellow. (well, hard to say if it's the same actually, in
darkness, your cones (? the ones who are colorsensitive) tend to not be
very useful, and the lightsensitive (rods?) take over. Still, the
colordifferences are visible to you. So what we can do, to see how we
find the sun, is to take a paper, and make a hole with a thin pin, and
then gaze on the sun through it (not for long!!! just for a fraction of a
second, let the eye cross the plane of the sun quickly), or make an
eclipse using your finger to cover the sun instead of the moon, and see if
you can see the color of the corona. the same here, use extreme caution! I
don't want anyone to be blind or get damaged eyes (it IS very very
dangerous)
In any case, an astronomer always calls the sun yellow.
> In any case the sun is not as yellow as crayons - or comic book yellow.
No, but it's more accurate yellow than white, in any case. (just as water
is more accurate blue than purple for instance)
> Could it be that it looks more yellow near sunset, before it gets orange,
> then red and ultimately night falls? This would probably be due to diffraction
> of the sun's light in earth's atmosphere.
Yep. The shorter wavelengths get lost (blue), and the longer (red)
stays. But there has to be a great deal of pollution to make the sun red.
The sunsets and sunrises I can remember, it has always been more bright
yellow.
> Another example: Water in small amounts (let's say in a bucket) is not
> nearly as blue as it is depicted in comic books. Water looks blue only if
> you have lots of it (like in an ocean).
...and if there's a blue sky above it getting reflected in it. Isn't
seawater more greenish otherwise?
> What I have always wondered is why Chinese (or Asian people
> in general) are depicted as yellow. In reality their skin color
> is not a little bit yellow. It is exactly like the skin color
> of Europeans.
Oh yes, that's a bigger conundrum!
Well, is it exactly like europeans, isn't it a wee bit darker, or rather,
europeans are almost colorless? (I am, for sure, during
wintertime, no pretty sight...)
/Theresa
> >> Actually, the sun *is* yellow! It's classified as a G-star
Cord:
> So if we make a spectral analysis of the sun it emits a little more
> electromagnetic radiation of wavelengths corresponding to yellow
> than of the other wavelengths. Is this visible with human eyes?
> Probably only from far away, let's say from Alpha Centauri.
Ah, nono. Of course you can't look directly into the sun when it's
daylight, it's far too bright (and you shouldn't!), but it's not white.
YellowISH, I should say. And it's the same yellow tone of light as when
you look at stars from far away. betelgeuse is red, Rigel is blue, Alpha
Centauri is yellow. (well, hard to say if it's the same actually, in
darkness, your cones (? the ones who are colorsensitive) tend to not be
very useful, and the lightsensitive (rods?) take over. Still, the
colordifferences are visible to you. So what we can do, to see how we
find the sun, is to take a paper, and make a hole with a thin pin, and
then gaze on the sun through it (not for long!!! just for a fraction of a
second, let the eye cross the plane of the sun quickly), or make an
eclipse using your finger to cover the sun instead of the moon, and see if
you can see the color of the corona. the same here, use extreme caution! I
don't want anyone to be blind or get damaged eyes (it IS very very
dangerous)
In any case, an astronomer always calls the sun yellow.
> In any case the sun is not as yellow as crayons - or comic book yellow.
No, but it's more accurate yellow than white, in any case. (just as water
is more accurate blue than purple for instance)
> Could it be that it looks more yellow near sunset, before it gets orange,
> then red and ultimately night falls? This would probably be due to diffraction
> of the sun's light in earth's atmosphere.
Yep. The shorter wavelengths get lost (blue), and the longer (red)
stays. But there has to be a great deal of pollution to make the sun red.
The sunsets and sunrises I can remember, it has always been more bright
yellow.
> Another example: Water in small amounts (let's say in a bucket) is not
> nearly as blue as it is depicted in comic books. Water looks blue only if
> you have lots of it (like in an ocean).
...and if there's a blue sky above it getting reflected in it. Isn't
seawater more greenish otherwise?
> What I have always wondered is why Chinese (or Asian people
> in general) are depicted as yellow. In reality their skin color
> is not a little bit yellow. It is exactly like the skin color
> of Europeans.
Oh yes, that's a bigger conundrum!
Well, is it exactly like europeans, isn't it a wee bit darker, or rather,
europeans are almost colorless? (I am, for sure, during
wintertime, no pretty sight...)
/Theresa
Luca Boschi
Post office/ Tesori
Message 305 -
2003-02-20 at 14:15:16
Hi, Timo!
> I got today Italian Tesori cinque: Storie Rare -Barks book. As I cannot read
> Italian, and therefore don't understand Luca Boschi's preface, I'd like to
> know where black line print proofs were acquired for this really nice book.
It was a restoration (made as better as possible) of some "old" proofs used
in Italy for almost three different editions of the story, "mixed" together
for having the best panels possible... All was made "on paper", without
using computer devices.
Luca
PS: Indeed, my article talks about givevaway, their rarity, focusing on
Barks' ones.
> I got today Italian Tesori cinque: Storie Rare -Barks book. As I cannot read
> Italian, and therefore don't understand Luca Boschi's preface, I'd like to
> know where black line print proofs were acquired for this really nice book.
It was a restoration (made as better as possible) of some "old" proofs used
in Italy for almost three different editions of the story, "mixed" together
for having the best panels possible... All was made "on paper", without
using computer devices.
Luca
PS: Indeed, my article talks about givevaway, their rarity, focusing on
Barks' ones.
Donald D. Markstein
Post office/ Tesori
Message 306 -
2003-02-20 at 14:43:14
> In a way, one might say comic book is not a magazine, we remember MAD
> changing into magazine-format so they could avoid being disapproved by
> Comics Code.... You see :-) OK, this is too OT...
That's a popular belief, but incorrect. Actually, MAD switched to its
present format some months earlier, because Harvey Kurtzman wanted to
upgrade the production values of the material he worked on. (He eventually
wound up with Little Annie Fanny, which, whatever you may say about its
content, was certainly one of the most lavishly-produced comics in American
history.) The fact that distributors were willing to accept it without the
Code seal was a happy side-effect.
Quack, Don
Today in Toons: Every day's an anniversary.
http://www.toonopedia.com/today.htm
> changing into magazine-format so they could avoid being disapproved by
> Comics Code.... You see :-) OK, this is too OT...
That's a popular belief, but incorrect. Actually, MAD switched to its
present format some months earlier, because Harvey Kurtzman wanted to
upgrade the production values of the material he worked on. (He eventually
wound up with Little Annie Fanny, which, whatever you may say about its
content, was certainly one of the most lavishly-produced comics in American
history.) The fact that distributors were willing to accept it without the
Code seal was a happy side-effect.
Quack, Don
Today in Toons: Every day's an anniversary.
http://www.toonopedia.com/today.htm
Timo Ronkainen
Post office/ Tesori
Message 307 -
2003-02-20 at 15:07:01
>That's a popular belief, but incorrect. ...upgrade the production values
Oh!? Thanks for the correction. This "fact" appears in many books and
sources...
Timo
^^''*''^^
Cartoonist - writer - donaldist -
Timo Ronkainen ---------------- -
YO-kylä 52 A 26 --------------- -
20540 Turku ------------------- -
Finland ----------------------- -
timoro at hotmail.com
timoro at sunpoint.net
¨¨ Personal:
http://www.geocities.com/timoro2/
¨¨ Ankkalinnan Pamaus:
http://www.perunamaa.net/ankistit/
.................................
"Rumble on, buxom bumble bee!
Go sit on cowslip - far from me!"
_________________________________________________________________
Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online
http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963
Oh!? Thanks for the correction. This "fact" appears in many books and
sources...
Timo
^^''*''^^
Cartoonist - writer - donaldist -
Timo Ronkainen ---------------- -
YO-kylä 52 A 26 --------------- -
20540 Turku ------------------- -
Finland ----------------------- -
timoro at hotmail.com
timoro at sunpoint.net
¨¨ Personal:
http://www.geocities.com/timoro2/
¨¨ Ankkalinnan Pamaus:
http://www.perunamaa.net/ankistit/
.................................
"Rumble on, buxom bumble bee!
Go sit on cowslip - far from me!"
_________________________________________________________________
Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online
http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963
Gary Leach
DCML digest, Vol 1 #1265 - 16 msgs
Message 308 -
2003-02-20 at 15:46:27
Cord:
> What I have always wondered is why Chinese (or Asian people
> in general) are depicted as yellow. In reality their skin color
> is not a little bit yellow. It is exactly like the skin color
> of Europeans.
Among the many reasons for the color choices made in comics,
particularly prior to the 1990s, was the very limited color palette
available in the "standard" four-color comic production/printing
process. Until the advent of the PC, all of the methods for setting
color up for print were physically messy and very labor-intensive - so
the fewer colors you asked for, the less expensive it was. Comics
publishers being comics publishers, the envelope on fewer-and-cheaper
was being pushed constantly until, by the days of Gladstone I, there
was a "standard" palette of 64 colors, not a few of which were to all
intents unusable. So there were never a lot of choices about what to
color things, from the sun to the sky to the sea to the ground to all
the various "shades" of humanity.
That said, it's also true that color cliches were around long before
comics came along. I can think of none that comics themselves
established, but I do believe that comics - with their longstanding
color limitations - helped reinforce existing ones to a considerable
extent.
Gemstone update: us three Gladstone "old-timers" have just enjoyed a
weekend hallmarked by a record snowfall for the Baltimore area. This is
interesting, because two of us - myself and John Clark - got to enjoy a
record snowfall in Prescott, Arizona, when Gladstone was moved up there
from Scottsdale in January 1987. One begins to wonder if some sort of
pattern is setting in...
As far as the Disney comics go, everything remains on schedule. The
Free Comic Book Day comic is approaching publication, the prestige
titles are coming together - with Rosa and Van Horn doing the covers
and lead-off stories - and we are still looking at two newsstand
titles starting up in late summer (one a Donald, one a Mickey). For
those interested in trade paperbacks, we've got a bi-monthly series
planned to start this summer.
Gary
> What I have always wondered is why Chinese (or Asian people
> in general) are depicted as yellow. In reality their skin color
> is not a little bit yellow. It is exactly like the skin color
> of Europeans.
Among the many reasons for the color choices made in comics,
particularly prior to the 1990s, was the very limited color palette
available in the "standard" four-color comic production/printing
process. Until the advent of the PC, all of the methods for setting
color up for print were physically messy and very labor-intensive - so
the fewer colors you asked for, the less expensive it was. Comics
publishers being comics publishers, the envelope on fewer-and-cheaper
was being pushed constantly until, by the days of Gladstone I, there
was a "standard" palette of 64 colors, not a few of which were to all
intents unusable. So there were never a lot of choices about what to
color things, from the sun to the sky to the sea to the ground to all
the various "shades" of humanity.
That said, it's also true that color cliches were around long before
comics came along. I can think of none that comics themselves
established, but I do believe that comics - with their longstanding
color limitations - helped reinforce existing ones to a considerable
extent.
Gemstone update: us three Gladstone "old-timers" have just enjoyed a
weekend hallmarked by a record snowfall for the Baltimore area. This is
interesting, because two of us - myself and John Clark - got to enjoy a
record snowfall in Prescott, Arizona, when Gladstone was moved up there
from Scottsdale in January 1987. One begins to wonder if some sort of
pattern is setting in...
As far as the Disney comics go, everything remains on schedule. The
Free Comic Book Day comic is approaching publication, the prestige
titles are coming together - with Rosa and Van Horn doing the covers
and lead-off stories - and we are still looking at two newsstand
titles starting up in late summer (one a Donald, one a Mickey). For
those interested in trade paperbacks, we've got a bi-monthly series
planned to start this summer.
Gary
Mads Jensen
Barks stories and National Geographic Magazine ?
Message 309 -
2003-02-20 at 17:31:19
Hi
Does anyone know whether or not a fellow Barks fan should have made an index
on what magazines Barks got his information from ?
Also, and which myths he was inspired by ?
I was, for some time, shown an comparison between NGM and "The Seven Cities
of Cibola" (W US 7), where Barks had redrawn the image from NGM.
Knowing to so many indexes, like "Who's Who in Entenhausen", "Barks
Werkverzeichnis", scandinavia Barks indexes, I would be wondering if someone
had not made a such index ?
/mads
Does anyone know whether or not a fellow Barks fan should have made an index
on what magazines Barks got his information from ?
Also, and which myths he was inspired by ?
I was, for some time, shown an comparison between NGM and "The Seven Cities
of Cibola" (W US 7), where Barks had redrawn the image from NGM.
Knowing to so many indexes, like "Who's Who in Entenhausen", "Barks
Werkverzeichnis", scandinavia Barks indexes, I would be wondering if someone
had not made a such index ?
/mads
Luca Boschi
Ludwig Von Drake of Vienna
Message 310 -
2003-02-20 at 18:26:19
> Hey everyone-
>
> I'm looking at 1961 YDs today.
> YD 61-09-22 is the first mention of LVD in the daily strip (DD is
> getting a guest room ready for him). Donald explicitly says to Daisy,
> "Professor Ludwig Von Drake of Vienna is coming to visit us..."
>
> So here's explicit evidence of LVD being from Vienna. Was someone
> looking for this?
In Naples, at Napoli Comicon exhibition, just yesterday we sent the DD
sunday page 61-09-24, where the LVD picture is drawn. There, if I well
remember, "Vienna" is not mentioned, only Europe. Karp wrote "European
Professor". Through Daisy's words, we learn: "He's a sort of Uncle for
you..." (she talks to Donald).
Here's the Napoli Comicon's caption (in Italian, sorry!) for that page and
the others, close to it.
Sopra, nella tavola di Donald Duck, di Bob Karp e Al Taliaferro, fa la sua
prima comparsa in una vignetta a fumetti (dipinto in un quadro), il
professor Ludwig Von Drake (Pico De Paperis). E? il 24 settembre 1961,
giorno stesso del suo debutto in TV, nella serie di show The Wonderful World
of Color, al fianco di Walt Disney in persona.
Al centro, una tavola di Uncle Remus and His Tales of Brer Rabbit, di George
Stallings (testi) e Bill Wright (disegni).
Sotto, The Little King (Il piccolo re): serie apparentemente semplice, ma in
realt? assai sofisticata, creata da Otto Soglow nel 1934.
**
Luca
>
> I'm looking at 1961 YDs today.
> YD 61-09-22 is the first mention of LVD in the daily strip (DD is
> getting a guest room ready for him). Donald explicitly says to Daisy,
> "Professor Ludwig Von Drake of Vienna is coming to visit us..."
>
> So here's explicit evidence of LVD being from Vienna. Was someone
> looking for this?
In Naples, at Napoli Comicon exhibition, just yesterday we sent the DD
sunday page 61-09-24, where the LVD picture is drawn. There, if I well
remember, "Vienna" is not mentioned, only Europe. Karp wrote "European
Professor". Through Daisy's words, we learn: "He's a sort of Uncle for
you..." (she talks to Donald).
Here's the Napoli Comicon's caption (in Italian, sorry!) for that page and
the others, close to it.
Sopra, nella tavola di Donald Duck, di Bob Karp e Al Taliaferro, fa la sua
prima comparsa in una vignetta a fumetti (dipinto in un quadro), il
professor Ludwig Von Drake (Pico De Paperis). E? il 24 settembre 1961,
giorno stesso del suo debutto in TV, nella serie di show The Wonderful World
of Color, al fianco di Walt Disney in persona.
Al centro, una tavola di Uncle Remus and His Tales of Brer Rabbit, di George
Stallings (testi) e Bill Wright (disegni).
Sotto, The Little King (Il piccolo re): serie apparentemente semplice, ma in
realt? assai sofisticata, creata da Otto Soglow nel 1934.
**
Luca
Stefan Persson
When mail-pograms go "berserk"
Message 311 -
2003-02-20 at 19:07:19
Sigvald Gr?sfjeld jr. wrote:
>Anyway, S?ren has done a great job in tracking
>them down and reporting them in or whatever
>way he stopped them!
>
I doubt that S?ren has done a thing about that, since that wouldn't
affect the amount of spam send to you anyways.
Stefan
>Anyway, S?ren has done a great job in tracking
>them down and reporting them in or whatever
>way he stopped them!
>
I doubt that S?ren has done a thing about that, since that wouldn't
affect the amount of spam send to you anyways.
Stefan
Ari Seppi
COA
Message 312 -
2003-02-20 at 19:47:47
Ola:
>Does anyone know what has happened to the COA website ? It hasn't been up
>for at least a week now.
Thanks to Thomas PL's brother COA is up again.
--
Ari Seppi (ari.seppi at iki.fi)
http://www.iki.fi/mani/
>Does anyone know what has happened to the COA website ? It hasn't been up
>for at least a week now.
Thanks to Thomas PL's brother COA is up again.
--
Ari Seppi (ari.seppi at iki.fi)
http://www.iki.fi/mani/
Rob Klein
Yellowish skin
Message 313 -
2003-02-20 at 21:28:44
Warning: This message is "for the most part" off topic. I thought it might be
of interest to the several members who have already commented on it. Please let
me know if this long-winded "dissertation" is something I should NOT send to
this list. Then, I won't do it again.
As our Gladstone/Gemstone friends have stated, the yellowish skin convention
for "orientals" in comics was just "taken over" from "Western societal cliches"
and beliefs.
Actually, the entire range of hues from very dark brown (appearing "blue
black"0 to extremely pallid (almost white) runs through the populations of Asia
AND Europe. That is because the peoples of both continents are very mixed with
traits from different breeding populations. There is no such thing as a
defined "race". In addition, outer (visible)features such as skin colour have
less to do with the particular breeding group than most of the traits peole
cannot discern easily. The skin colours of different breeding groups were
formed when those groups were still breeding under the effects of natural
selection (e.g. the amount of melanin in their skin was affecting their
abilities to survive until breeding age). For most of the so-called "oriental"
populations, natural selection (certainly as related to melanin) does not
operate. Therefore, these populations carry the skin colours from their
latitudinal locations on the Earth where they last spent 25,000 - 50,000 years
under natural selection, as well as the specific meterological (cloud
cover/sunlight)conditions of that area. In general (for Asia, which lies mostly
in the Northern Hemisphere), if they lived further north during their last
period under melanin-related natural selection, they would have lighter skin,
and darker skin as the groups were further south, towards the Equator. But,
most of those groups experienced interbreeding from other groups.
Currently, DNA scientists, who have sampled blood of thousands of test
populations around the Globe, believe that all humans originated from a small
group of people in east Africa, which lived around 130,000 years ago. Their
first migration out of Africa, across the Red Sea Narrows to Yemen and up into
Arabia as far as Syria, survived until about 100,000 years ago. They died out
due to increasing aridity of the Middle East. A new wave of migrations started
the same direction. One group populated Arabia and The levant again, but moved
nor further, for a long period. The great mass moved slowly eastward along the
shores of The Indian Ocean; around The persian Gulf, the coast of India, Burma,
Thailand, Indochina, and from there, split into two main groups. By the time
they had lived in south east Asia's dense tropical jungles, some of the smaller
groups' skin colours probably began to vary, based on local exposure to
sunlight. One group followed the coast of Viet Nam northwards into South
China, while the other followed the land bridge into Indonesia (most of whose
islands were joined together because the ice age had locked up more of the
Earth's water in glaciers). They moved from there to Papua (New Guinea), and
finally to Australia. The Australians and Melanesians today have very dark
skin, "Negroid" features and kinky hair, because they have had less
interbreeding with other population groups (specifically those who had already
lived farther north and had moved south again). They retain more of the
original traits they carried from east-central Africa, while also having stayed
in relatively similar sunlight conditions.
The group that moved into South China eventually spread further north and also
west, populating much of North China, Korea, Tibet, Mongolia, Siberia and some
of Central Asia. Their hair became wavy, to even straight, adapting to the less
tropical conditions. Their skin colours became lighter, depending upon amount
of direct sunlight and its angle. In the meantime, the group that was in the
Middle East also sent off migrations into Persia and Central Asia. These
groups would later mix with the Central Asians who came by way of China. This
is why the "Turkic" linguistic groups differ so greatly from the Sino-
Mongolian. Many Siberian tribes were Turkic (Tataric) and others mongolian.
Another group leaving the Middle East apparantly lived farther north at an
earlier period (when melanin natural selection was still operating). They first
lived around the Black Sea and Northwest Persia and western Central Asia. This
group later migrated into Europe around 30,000 years ago, but before that, had
already occupied some of Russia and even into the northern areas and towards
Scandinavia. The Finns, "original Bulgars", Magyars and some Siberian tribes
probably come from that group, as well as the early main Peninsular Europeans.
Their were various hues of skin colour and variations of lightness and darkness
in the skin related to sunlight exposure during their melanin natural selection
period (probably BEFORE they ended up in Europe). From 20,000 years ago, and
much more frequently from 10,000 years ago on, the different population
breeding groups intermixed, so we got lots of variation of traits.
My own father's father was a "European". He was Dutch, but we can trace his
family ancestry back to Eastern Hungary (Carpathian Mountains). He had a round
face. his skin was light, but did have a slightly yellowish tint. I KNOW that
he did not suffer from jaundice! He had almond shaped eyes. His body type was
short and stocky. My father and I are both tall and thin. We both have red
hair and very light skin with many freckles. I wouldn't say that my grandfather
looked Mongolian, but I wouldn't say that he didn't have some "Turkic"
features. Many of the people from that area display those features (there are
also a lot of pallid-skinned redheads).
I believe the turkic/Asian-like characteristics were left by the many
intrusians of Asian invaders to that area (Huns, Avars, Patzinaks, Mongols,
Cumans, etc.). Even when they didn't "Marry" into the sedintary society, they
raped the women, who ended up raising their children as "civilised" members of
the sedentary population. I also have a few cousins with almond eyes, roundish
faces and slight yellowish tints to their skin.
I would guess that there IS something to the old belief that the Mongolian
populations have at least a bit of yellowish tones to their skin colour,on the
whole. The Turkic groups have less, and what they do have may have come from
interbreeding with Mongolian groups. The original migration of the group that
moved north first into South China and later spread over east and central Asia
must have experienced conditions during their skin colour natural selection
period, that required an adaptation which resulted in a slight yellowish tone.
Of course, as the group split up and moved to various other climates, the trait
was modified, or weeded out. Japan, for example, has a significant percentage
of the population with very light skin; but also a significant portion with
medium darkness, and yellowish tint, and a group (more from the south) with
darker skin (but still a slight yellowish tint). It is believed that japan had
three major immigrations in prehistoric times. One, from Central Asia to
northern East Asia (Siberia/Manchuria) -who included today's Ainu
(caucasoid/Turkic), a second from East Asia/Korea/North China,-Mongoloid; and a
third from Indonesia/Malaysia/Philippines/Taiwan/Okinawa- Malay peoples. The
latter two groups coming both from the original group that split off from Viet
Nam into South China. Both of those groups likely have contributed the slight
yellowish tint.
The "American Indians" carried the mixed traits of the Siberians (Turkic from
the Middle East to Central Asia route and Mongolian from Viet Nam to China to
Siberia) across the land bridge to North and South America starting 30,000
years ago. The peoples of that first migration down in southern South America
have some traits shared wouth Australian aborigines (from the splitting about
40,000 years ago, of one group into Indonesia/Papua/Australia, and the other to
north Viet Nam, up the coast of China, through Manchuria and Siberia to
Beringia). The DNA scientists found "Negroid" features in some human skeletons
from patagonia from 10,000 years ago. A second migration were the peoples who
later became the Athabaskan linguistic group, and a third migration formed the
other major Amerind linguistic group. A last migration of the last 4,000
years, was the Inuit (Eskimo) peoples. The latter share more features with the
present day Mongolian groups, as they split off much more recently. The other
groups had long periods still under natural selection, to adapt to their new
enviornments, and thus, change characteristics. Although the Native American
populations display the entire range of skin colours, most of them include a
slight yellowish tint.
Perhaps it is "normal" for human skin to have some yellowish tint, and what we
are observing in the "oriental cliche" is that many Europeans have such light
skin that it does not show a yellowish tint. What was seen to be "normal" for
them, was pallid white. Everything else must be "foreign".
When the Africans have a lighter tint to their skin, the yellowish tint is
visible, such as with the Pigmy groups, Bushmen and Hottentot. Groups that are
mixed with "Caucasoids", as in the Horn of Africa, (Eritreans, Ethiopians,
lighter Somalis, some Eastern Saharan tribes) seem to me to show a bit of
yellowish tint.
I hope we have a scientist among us that knows the answer to the question
of "yellowish" skin. If so, the short answer can go to the DCML, as several
people are interested. A long answer probably should be sent as personal mail
to those interested?
Rob
Klein
---------------------------------------------
This message was sent using the LA Free-Net - LA's best kept secret.
http://www.lafn.org/
of interest to the several members who have already commented on it. Please let
me know if this long-winded "dissertation" is something I should NOT send to
this list. Then, I won't do it again.
As our Gladstone/Gemstone friends have stated, the yellowish skin convention
for "orientals" in comics was just "taken over" from "Western societal cliches"
and beliefs.
Actually, the entire range of hues from very dark brown (appearing "blue
black"0 to extremely pallid (almost white) runs through the populations of Asia
AND Europe. That is because the peoples of both continents are very mixed with
traits from different breeding populations. There is no such thing as a
defined "race". In addition, outer (visible)features such as skin colour have
less to do with the particular breeding group than most of the traits peole
cannot discern easily. The skin colours of different breeding groups were
formed when those groups were still breeding under the effects of natural
selection (e.g. the amount of melanin in their skin was affecting their
abilities to survive until breeding age). For most of the so-called "oriental"
populations, natural selection (certainly as related to melanin) does not
operate. Therefore, these populations carry the skin colours from their
latitudinal locations on the Earth where they last spent 25,000 - 50,000 years
under natural selection, as well as the specific meterological (cloud
cover/sunlight)conditions of that area. In general (for Asia, which lies mostly
in the Northern Hemisphere), if they lived further north during their last
period under melanin-related natural selection, they would have lighter skin,
and darker skin as the groups were further south, towards the Equator. But,
most of those groups experienced interbreeding from other groups.
Currently, DNA scientists, who have sampled blood of thousands of test
populations around the Globe, believe that all humans originated from a small
group of people in east Africa, which lived around 130,000 years ago. Their
first migration out of Africa, across the Red Sea Narrows to Yemen and up into
Arabia as far as Syria, survived until about 100,000 years ago. They died out
due to increasing aridity of the Middle East. A new wave of migrations started
the same direction. One group populated Arabia and The levant again, but moved
nor further, for a long period. The great mass moved slowly eastward along the
shores of The Indian Ocean; around The persian Gulf, the coast of India, Burma,
Thailand, Indochina, and from there, split into two main groups. By the time
they had lived in south east Asia's dense tropical jungles, some of the smaller
groups' skin colours probably began to vary, based on local exposure to
sunlight. One group followed the coast of Viet Nam northwards into South
China, while the other followed the land bridge into Indonesia (most of whose
islands were joined together because the ice age had locked up more of the
Earth's water in glaciers). They moved from there to Papua (New Guinea), and
finally to Australia. The Australians and Melanesians today have very dark
skin, "Negroid" features and kinky hair, because they have had less
interbreeding with other population groups (specifically those who had already
lived farther north and had moved south again). They retain more of the
original traits they carried from east-central Africa, while also having stayed
in relatively similar sunlight conditions.
The group that moved into South China eventually spread further north and also
west, populating much of North China, Korea, Tibet, Mongolia, Siberia and some
of Central Asia. Their hair became wavy, to even straight, adapting to the less
tropical conditions. Their skin colours became lighter, depending upon amount
of direct sunlight and its angle. In the meantime, the group that was in the
Middle East also sent off migrations into Persia and Central Asia. These
groups would later mix with the Central Asians who came by way of China. This
is why the "Turkic" linguistic groups differ so greatly from the Sino-
Mongolian. Many Siberian tribes were Turkic (Tataric) and others mongolian.
Another group leaving the Middle East apparantly lived farther north at an
earlier period (when melanin natural selection was still operating). They first
lived around the Black Sea and Northwest Persia and western Central Asia. This
group later migrated into Europe around 30,000 years ago, but before that, had
already occupied some of Russia and even into the northern areas and towards
Scandinavia. The Finns, "original Bulgars", Magyars and some Siberian tribes
probably come from that group, as well as the early main Peninsular Europeans.
Their were various hues of skin colour and variations of lightness and darkness
in the skin related to sunlight exposure during their melanin natural selection
period (probably BEFORE they ended up in Europe). From 20,000 years ago, and
much more frequently from 10,000 years ago on, the different population
breeding groups intermixed, so we got lots of variation of traits.
My own father's father was a "European". He was Dutch, but we can trace his
family ancestry back to Eastern Hungary (Carpathian Mountains). He had a round
face. his skin was light, but did have a slightly yellowish tint. I KNOW that
he did not suffer from jaundice! He had almond shaped eyes. His body type was
short and stocky. My father and I are both tall and thin. We both have red
hair and very light skin with many freckles. I wouldn't say that my grandfather
looked Mongolian, but I wouldn't say that he didn't have some "Turkic"
features. Many of the people from that area display those features (there are
also a lot of pallid-skinned redheads).
I believe the turkic/Asian-like characteristics were left by the many
intrusians of Asian invaders to that area (Huns, Avars, Patzinaks, Mongols,
Cumans, etc.). Even when they didn't "Marry" into the sedintary society, they
raped the women, who ended up raising their children as "civilised" members of
the sedentary population. I also have a few cousins with almond eyes, roundish
faces and slight yellowish tints to their skin.
I would guess that there IS something to the old belief that the Mongolian
populations have at least a bit of yellowish tones to their skin colour,on the
whole. The Turkic groups have less, and what they do have may have come from
interbreeding with Mongolian groups. The original migration of the group that
moved north first into South China and later spread over east and central Asia
must have experienced conditions during their skin colour natural selection
period, that required an adaptation which resulted in a slight yellowish tone.
Of course, as the group split up and moved to various other climates, the trait
was modified, or weeded out. Japan, for example, has a significant percentage
of the population with very light skin; but also a significant portion with
medium darkness, and yellowish tint, and a group (more from the south) with
darker skin (but still a slight yellowish tint). It is believed that japan had
three major immigrations in prehistoric times. One, from Central Asia to
northern East Asia (Siberia/Manchuria) -who included today's Ainu
(caucasoid/Turkic), a second from East Asia/Korea/North China,-Mongoloid; and a
third from Indonesia/Malaysia/Philippines/Taiwan/Okinawa- Malay peoples. The
latter two groups coming both from the original group that split off from Viet
Nam into South China. Both of those groups likely have contributed the slight
yellowish tint.
The "American Indians" carried the mixed traits of the Siberians (Turkic from
the Middle East to Central Asia route and Mongolian from Viet Nam to China to
Siberia) across the land bridge to North and South America starting 30,000
years ago. The peoples of that first migration down in southern South America
have some traits shared wouth Australian aborigines (from the splitting about
40,000 years ago, of one group into Indonesia/Papua/Australia, and the other to
north Viet Nam, up the coast of China, through Manchuria and Siberia to
Beringia). The DNA scientists found "Negroid" features in some human skeletons
from patagonia from 10,000 years ago. A second migration were the peoples who
later became the Athabaskan linguistic group, and a third migration formed the
other major Amerind linguistic group. A last migration of the last 4,000
years, was the Inuit (Eskimo) peoples. The latter share more features with the
present day Mongolian groups, as they split off much more recently. The other
groups had long periods still under natural selection, to adapt to their new
enviornments, and thus, change characteristics. Although the Native American
populations display the entire range of skin colours, most of them include a
slight yellowish tint.
Perhaps it is "normal" for human skin to have some yellowish tint, and what we
are observing in the "oriental cliche" is that many Europeans have such light
skin that it does not show a yellowish tint. What was seen to be "normal" for
them, was pallid white. Everything else must be "foreign".
When the Africans have a lighter tint to their skin, the yellowish tint is
visible, such as with the Pigmy groups, Bushmen and Hottentot. Groups that are
mixed with "Caucasoids", as in the Horn of Africa, (Eritreans, Ethiopians,
lighter Somalis, some Eastern Saharan tribes) seem to me to show a bit of
yellowish tint.
I hope we have a scientist among us that knows the answer to the question
of "yellowish" skin. If so, the short answer can go to the DCML, as several
people are interested. A long answer probably should be sent as personal mail
to those interested?
Rob
Klein
---------------------------------------------
This message was sent using the LA Free-Net - LA's best kept secret.
http://www.lafn.org/
Rob Klein
Yellow Sun in Comics
Message 314 -
2003-02-20 at 22:44:45
I promise to stay completely on topic.
There is on aspect we forgot to bring up regarding the use in comics of yellow
sun. That is the human instinct that makes the "warm" colours provide us with
an "impression", and even, in some cases, a physical "feeling" of warmth. It is
this quality that is necessary for the artist to provide a particular mood for
his/her story. As the societal cliche and "general impression" of many people
is that the sun appears yellow; that belief is employed by the artist. White
cannot be used to provide that warm feeling of a sunny day, as it is a neutral
colour, when it comes to relative temperature. It is also the colour of snow -
which could be used to imply cold. Comic art is representational-not a
photograph or film of "real" existing conditions. For that reason, details
should be exaggerated to make one's point, or produce a feeling or mood. A
yellow sun is necessary for a warm feeling of a sunny day. If it need be hot,
the artist can augment it with ray lines protruding outward. If he wants to
show it even hotter, he can make those lines wavy, also show wavy steam lines
eminating from the ground. But, most of all, he would show the animals and
people sweating and otherwise suffering from that heat. If he wants to show a
cooler sun, he would be best served by covering it, altogether with clouds.
Exaggeration to set the mood is key.
An artist cannot place his readers in the real World. Sometimes it is more
effective to use devices which take advantage of readers' beliefs and
instincts. Sometimes this involves "cheating"-as artists do when using a false
(inaccurate) perspective to provide a desired "feeling". We need yellow to
imply the sun's warmth for the pleasant or hot feeling of a sunny day. If we
don't want that feeling, we need not show the sun, at all. A red sun can only
be used in sunsets or forest or rangefire situations, or sandstorms, (e.g.
normal conditions that people recognise as producing a red sun).
Rob
Klein
---------------------------------------------
This message was sent using the LA Free-Net - LA's best kept secret.
http://www.lafn.org/
There is on aspect we forgot to bring up regarding the use in comics of yellow
sun. That is the human instinct that makes the "warm" colours provide us with
an "impression", and even, in some cases, a physical "feeling" of warmth. It is
this quality that is necessary for the artist to provide a particular mood for
his/her story. As the societal cliche and "general impression" of many people
is that the sun appears yellow; that belief is employed by the artist. White
cannot be used to provide that warm feeling of a sunny day, as it is a neutral
colour, when it comes to relative temperature. It is also the colour of snow -
which could be used to imply cold. Comic art is representational-not a
photograph or film of "real" existing conditions. For that reason, details
should be exaggerated to make one's point, or produce a feeling or mood. A
yellow sun is necessary for a warm feeling of a sunny day. If it need be hot,
the artist can augment it with ray lines protruding outward. If he wants to
show it even hotter, he can make those lines wavy, also show wavy steam lines
eminating from the ground. But, most of all, he would show the animals and
people sweating and otherwise suffering from that heat. If he wants to show a
cooler sun, he would be best served by covering it, altogether with clouds.
Exaggeration to set the mood is key.
An artist cannot place his readers in the real World. Sometimes it is more
effective to use devices which take advantage of readers' beliefs and
instincts. Sometimes this involves "cheating"-as artists do when using a false
(inaccurate) perspective to provide a desired "feeling". We need yellow to
imply the sun's warmth for the pleasant or hot feeling of a sunny day. If we
don't want that feeling, we need not show the sun, at all. A red sun can only
be used in sunsets or forest or rangefire situations, or sandstorms, (e.g.
normal conditions that people recognise as producing a red sun).
Rob
Klein
---------------------------------------------
This message was sent using the LA Free-Net - LA's best kept secret.
http://www.lafn.org/
Sigvald Grøsfjeld Jr.
Anniversary day!
Message 315 -
2003-02-20 at 23:08:15
Kai Saarto <ksaarto at mbnet.fi> wrote:
> The suprise-link from the main page is broken
> though. One "/" is accidentally turned itself
> to "\" - I think it might have been celebrating
> a bit too much... :)
>
> Direct link for surprise page until Sigvald
> fixes it:
>
>http://duckman.pettho.com/celebration/anniversary.html
Thanks for totifying me! The problem is now
solved! Anyway it worked with my browser even
with a wrong slash.
Sigvald :-)
> The suprise-link from the main page is broken
> though. One "/" is accidentally turned itself
> to "\" - I think it might have been celebrating
> a bit too much... :)
>
> Direct link for surprise page until Sigvald
> fixes it:
>
>http://duckman.pettho.com/celebration/anniversary.html
Thanks for totifying me! The problem is now
solved! Anyway it worked with my browser even
with a wrong slash.
Sigvald :-)